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Hello, I just started playing here a few days ago. Recently, I was told that in order to acquire Undead and Outsider shapes, you have to play a subclass or something called a Shaman. I searched over the wiki and the website and couldn't find that. Can anyone confirm if this is true or false? Thank you.

Wasn't really sure where to post this.

shamen? no you must mean druid. and yes you need enough druid levels to get the requirements for shapeshifter including the feats needed.

However the shapes themselves only are Wisdom locked. meaning you need a certain wisdom to get them.

I was told that this shaman thing was a subclass of druid. I already have Shifter levels, and ensured I've got the feat requirements coming for me down the road, for the forms. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to be able to get them due to some strange undocumented thing!

What the person was probably referring to is that (in the opinion of some; I do not know if it is enforced) druids are so categorically and superstitiously opposed to undead (and aberrations) that even taking their shape goes against their religion. That is why those Shifters aiming to make much use of the Undead Shape feat take the absolute minimum of druid levels, don't use the druid spells, and don't RP being druids at all.

What Iron said.

You need the druid levels due to mechanical requirements but if you don't want the druid restrictions you are allowed to take five druid levels and ignore the rp restrictions for druids.

If you do so that also means no druid spell use, no animal companion, no rp'ing/ using druidic powers other then animal shapeshifting (You can do that as part of the shifter powers.)

Well in terms of official rules in the past from the DM team the only thing set in stone about IC not being a druid is no spell use and no animal companion. ((unless you request it))

The five druid levels are incorrect after the shifter fix because of how they changed the skills

Quote:

DC Calculations and Spells:
DCs on Shifter abilities are calculated from a unique formula: 10 + 1/2 of Shifter Level + Wisdom Modifier. In cases where an ability has a duration, it is calculated as Druid + Shifter level. For abilities which have a scaling damage amount, the amount is again calculated as Druid + Shifter level.

Because of them making druid levels play into account of a shapes shifters power over 5, you can indeed be a non-druid but go 10druid and 20 shifter and not use druid spells or companion. If the formula for duration and damage scaling was 10+shifter level so druid was removed from it then 5 druid could logically be enforced without negative impacting the shape shifter.

Chiming in:

1) 5 Druid is required in order to take Shifter levels (NWN restriction)
2) If you only take 5 Druid, the standing Amia rule is you can flat out ignore having any druid levels (means you can't cast druid spells or use the companion)
3) If you take 6 or more druid levels, you either have to RP being a druid or you can RP being a shaman instead (otherwise if you do non-druid stuff you can be Fallen)

So yeah, if you only take 5 Druid (there's really no reason to take more unless you want to for the sake of RP) you have nothing to worry about so long as you cast no druid spells or use the companion.

Naivatkal wrote:

Chiming in:
3) If you take 6 or more druid levels, you either have to RP being a druid or you can RP being a shaman instead (otherwise if you do non-druid stuff you can be Fallen)

So yeah, if you only take 5 Druid (there's really no reason to take more unless you want to for the sake of RP) you have nothing to worry about so long as you cast no druid spells or use the companion.

Other then as a shape shifter (as is listed under the class changes that quoted in the post above yours) The power of your spells and its duration is altered based off your druid levels over 5, so you do indeed have reasons to take more then 5 levels in druid. and can be a non-druid with 5+ druid levels as long as you don't use druid only items,spells or companion.

Naivatkal wrote:

3) If you take 6 or more druid levels, you either have to RP being a druid or you can RP being a shaman instead (otherwise if you do non-druid stuff you can be Fallen)

I am not 100% sure if you CAN rp a shaman, or you must request it. I know for instance that Shamans cannot use Animal Companion.

I believe they need to be requested, so the DMs know what and who has a non-mechanical class being represented, and so the player can show that they understand what it even is and entails.

But I may be mistaken about that, as the Druid-as-Shaman topic is not something I have much experience with yet. However, emulation or counts-as classes typically need to be requested in general.

LetumLux wrote:

I believe they need to be requested, so the DMs know what and who has a non-mechanical class being represented, and so the player can show that they understand what it even is and entails.

But I may be mistaken about that, as the Druid-as-Shaman topic is not something I have much experience with yet. However, emulation or counts-as classes typically need to be requested in general.

You are correct it has had to be requested in the past and I don't believe that has changed.

Can this be posted somewhere? I came to Amia almost a year ago and ran into some seriously discouraging times because of this unwritten rule

Almost nothing needs to be requested until an official rule is made. I have been badgering you to post the formulation of DM-confirmed established practice for years now but nobody bothered to get off their ass to do it or revise it. Every generation of DMs forgets more and more of the practice and by the slippery slope of playing it safe institutes more and more restrictions. This is one of the, if not the, biggest blueberry muffins eating away at Amia.

You can RP the Druid as pretty much any divine caster that reasonably fits the class, given that there are no hard OOC requirements imposed by the class. (Armor, for example, has never been legally enforced; individual DMs may have overstepped their bounds here, though.) Shaman with an animal companion is so obviously reasonable that a request shouldn't ever be considered (unless you want to reskin your summons, for example).

This is entirely independent on what I think should be free and what request-only; it is just to point out that as long as there is no explicit rule in R&L (nowhere else suffices) you can do whatever the hell you want and anyone telling you otherwise is out of line. I don't think this is an ideal situation, and I'd rather have a clear rule, but there are no such things as unwritten rules. If you're going to radically overrule previous decisions and practices and restrict player freedom on this issue, though, it probably ought to be a public discussion and a vote.

DM Note: Above post is not to be read as an official ruling from the DM team and for character creation please see the rule section of the forums.
Creating your character

Revised rules with clear language and lists are being worked on to avoid misunderstandings and old information, and bring everything up to date on how things are currently being done, which will supersede previous posts/information/etc - in regards to this, and other topics.

That is good to hear!

Amia is a server based primarily on ideology and values, though. If radical changes to player freedom and established practice are planned they should be discussed openly. We know from experience that feedback is impossible to get through once a rule has been announced.

A lot of the things being clarified aren't even changes except in that they are going from "unwritten" to "written" and on display. It hasn't been any secret that I am aggressive about transparency and presenting exhaustive lists of everything possible, because many mistakes are made simply due to the information not being easily accessible, or the information available being contradictory or confusing.

What we are working on will be the patch update for that; spelling out what is and is not okay, reasons for why as much as possible, and so forth, gathering all of the scattered information from across the eras of the server into one place, and one time. No more contradictions, no more multiple sources.

This is going to take a bit of time, of course, due to the scope, but it will also be on-going after release as we find things that were forgotten about or overlooked. So keep calm and RP on while we do an immense sorting, reevaluating, and presenting adventure.

Last edited by Naivatkal on Fri, Jan 16 2015, 3:26 AM, edited 1 time in total.

edit: Strike that, reverse it. Put your thang down, flip it, and reverse it.

Naivatkal wrote:

I really hope no rule on having to request Shamans is made. I would thoroughly dislike having to make requests for three of my chars (Shifters that don't use druid abilities).

Then again, they can just take a Fall and nothing really changes. Makes the whole idea sorta silly to have it be request-only after all, especially for something so minor and widespread.

You have to request shaman, its the request of another class to IC take the roll of your druid levels. Its a divine spell caster.... has a Animal Companion all that jazz. ((Oriental Adventures I believe its under))

But if your not using any of the druid spells or pet, your not a shaman at all, hence why you don't have to request it.

Yeah I wasn't thinking when I typed that. I'm a boat of dumb XD

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