Improved evasion! What the hells is wrong with it?
This topic has caught my interest for a good number of reason, which may be firstly the torn stance of the DM team about it.
This is my observation: I've noticed that many discussions about epic items and bosshunting in the forums end up with a DM saying "we encourage creation of your own epic gear". Then we see that nobody is really comfortable with having improved evasion in a custom item. We agree in one thing: Improved evasion as an item property is an aberration. It's something far too powerful that requires investment in a sort of roguish class. It's one of the main components of these kind of characters, but with enough time to bosshunt, any character may get the ring (and a mountain of sureforged clubs in the process). This is not fair. It is my personal opinion that bosshunting and grinding is a tedious task, and I didn't came to Amia to bore myself to death while rushing spawns in hope to finally roll below 6% and get something valuable. If I want my character to grow better and acquire something that fits his build, I am forced to waste -a lot- of time that I may as well be spending in something that I actually enjoy! I may be the only one with this opinion as well.
Bosshunting is a necessary evil, from my point of view, that is alright. If I wanted to change the systems, this would be posted in the IA forum.
Improved Evasion may as well be the only property that is really a Nnnnngh when it comes to balance, but it is neither fair that a player that spends hours RPing instead of bosshunting is still "looked down", as if it didn't come with enough effort to get it as well. We can understand Ulviir's case as something subjective that was going out of balance, but reading over Cory's boots just leaves me under the impression that IE in an item is wrong from any perspective to the Team.
From my point of view, IE rings should be removed as possible drop in order to stabilize this matter and form an unison stance on it, and I can only foresee two consequences based on this: It would make bosshunting slightly less alluring, and we would have a lot of unique rings going around - buuuut would we be encouraging the crafting of items with this property?
It was said that the Team is discussing this in the background right now, but I'd like to leave this open for the community to toss their own opinion openly.
IMO some people take several levels in specific classes primarily for the Improved Evasion feat. Whether or not this is always to access Epic Dodge or for its own merits, I cannot say.
Bias disclaimer: a 97% retired character of mine and much sentimental value has an IE ring.
I could be wrong, but I am under the impression that PvP mages don't use spells with an Evasionable save. I am also under the impression that no-one builds their PvP/boss gearset on the assumption of failing a save. Thus, Evasion is de facto Improved Evasion, and compared to the bossgrinding you need to get an IE ring, just taking Rogue2 or Monk1 is a total no-brainer.
IMO Improved Evasion and Freedom should be removed entirely from items. They basically make conjuration school spells useless, or other spells. All spells with reflex saves to avoid half-dmg suddenly become no damage at all spells. As we simply can't get the DC's so high that they actually would be so useful, especially seeing how easy it is to get your saves high. As a conjuror mage, who actually tried to use conjuration spells in one point. I learned that there really wasn't so many AoE spells that actually were useful due to those two feats.
I don't know whether IE is OP'd or not, I just know that there are players (myself included) who have spent a good deal of time, effort, and/or gold to acquire the IE ring. If these items were to be removed from the loot bin, would the existing ones be eliminated too?
Oh dear.. well, i love being immune to evocation, and not having to power build 2 levels of rogue to do it, but i can understand it it goes away. Freedom, well.. maybe that too. Immunity 100% in general is kind of lame. That you can get the ring is not such an issue i think, as there are items, i believe, that you can get at shops, with imp evasion.
I just hope if Imp Evasion is taken off my ring, i can get some sort of compensation for it.. though i expect ill get a fat wad of Nope!
I don't know whether IE is OP'd or not, I just know that there are players (myself included) who have spent a good deal of time, effort, and/or gold to acquire the IE ring. If these items were to be removed from the loot bin, would the existing ones be eliminated too?
The DM team isn't really in the business in of grandfathering but a suitable replacement will be given to those that have an IE ring. If we decide to remove it.
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If Improved Evasion disappears, then Mindblank potions should, too. I mean, if you're going to cater to evocation mages, you should be fair and cater to enchantment and illusionists, too.
I am in favor of both vanishing. Or none.
_________________ Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
Coming from a terrifying rage user, mind blank should stay no matter what else happens. Terrirage is already an almost instant-win button, but removing the only counter to it? Lolno
Improved Evasion on items is by far not comparable to mind blank. Mind blank protects you against all kinds of PvE hazards as well, while IE is not quite as versatile. I mean, I've never, in my time of playing on Amia, come up against an evocation spell I just -had- to have IE against. It's so rare that you even come up against those spells. The most common spells used by other players, to harm other players, are:
IGMS Hellball GR Horrid Wilting
None of those are harmed by IE. Fireball, Delayed Fireball, Chain Lightning, are affected, but who uses those? Everyone and their mother has decent saves, and enough hp to make those spells seem like jokes (maximized chain lightning is like maximized IGMS against one target, but it allows for a save, hence not often used).
IE in fact is only really useful, in my experience, if you want to make yourself immune to traps. Traps can be a bitch, and IE guarantees that you'll take half damage from them, unless you take no damage from them. That's stupendous. Mind Blank is even better than IE really, if I had a permanent mind blank item I'd be the most powerful person on the server probably. Mind Blank is, however, necessary, to prevent instant-win buttons. IE is just useful (and said usefulness mildly depends on how you play or where you go/what you do), not instant-win-breaker. Mind blank is essential for balance and is useful for any character. If we want to get rid of IE because it's an "elite feat" (made that term up), that kind of makes sense, since it's not required for a balanced Amia and is a nice treat for those who have invested in it to have, but mind blank is very much necessary. Can't get rid of it.
There's an armour with Improved Evasion on it, the Kumakawa. Back in the day, and you may have trouble believing this, we decided that it was too big a kick in the teeth to PvP mages to have it out and about, so we fiddled it to have -5 Fort, -5 Will. Then sanity dawned and we reverted it.
The Kuma's base 3 armour, the second worst kind possible, and while it's a regular feature in my character's gearsets for Gauntlet runs and Mythal-krilling the giants, it stays in the bag for any actual challenging stuff.
You are only looking at this from a PvP perspective, and while anybody can keep a Kumakawa handy, IE is something conditional - since we acknowledge that it only makes sense when there is a reflex save with damage in the equation. But then again, if I was playing a wizard and about to enter PvP, and a character changes armor just in front of me, I would go "//Duuuude..."
In PvE, you'll see -a lot- of more spells that depend on a reflex save, and not only spells, but abilities, traps... Some of these things are plain obnoxious. The Blade Barrier of the Fire Giants, the whole trap run of the Gauntlets, any Storm of Vengeance, though those have poor damage per round, the pulse attack of the ice wraiths! I've seen TPKs in a second for those. Stack a little of reflex, and trolololo your whole way like a real rogue, while you don't even have to a be a rogue!
Joined: 11 Jan 2013 Location: Riding the flow of the wind!
I am in favour if it means replacing the Imp Evasion for Evasion. For characters that are heavily invested in Dexterity such as mine the switch really doesn't make a big difference. She will still make Reflex saves and I would be happy with that.
If it was on just this armor and took all mythal slots, that would be fine. But having it on a ring is too strong. Replacing it with just evasion is the best option.
The DM team isn't really in the business in of grandfathering but a suitable replacement will be given to those that have an IE ring. If we decide to remove it.
I'm pretty sure we've always strived to maintain the grandfather clause and not enforce anything retroactively. (Not that this principle hasn't been violated, too.) I don't think there's ever been more than two or three script-replacements of changed items? Granted, it is understandable that if something genuinely game-changing is done, we will want to use extreme measures and level the playing field.
But as pointed out by Uberuce, it's really that unbalanced. I am not sure it warrants fiddling drastically with something that has worked for years and not wrecked the game. I've never seen it and probably never will, so it hasn't affected by gaming experience. Whatever the ideal situation, I think cautious conservatism is a good policy. Sticking with the status quo will rarely do harm, whereas changes always carry a risk of unwanted consequences and ruffled feathers. Not ruffling feathers unnecessarily, when it comes to people's characters and inventories, should be a pretty high priority.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
IE in fact is only really useful, in my experience, if you want to make yourself immune to traps. Traps can be a bitch, and IE guarantees that you'll take half damage from them, unless you take no damage from them. That's stupendous. Mind Blank is even better than IE really, if I had a permanent mind blank item I'd be the most powerful person on the server probably. Mind Blank is, however, necessary, to prevent instant-win buttons. IE is just useful (and said usefulness mildly depends on how you play or where you go/what you do), not instant-win-breaker. Mind blank is essential for balance and is useful for any character. If we want to get rid of IE because it's an "elite feat" (made that term up), that kind of makes sense, since it's not required for a balanced Amia and is a nice treat for those who have invested in it to have, but mind blank is very much necessary. Can't get rid of it.
Since I do a lot of walking through traps, and recently got an Improved Evasion ring, I'll say it really doesn't do a whole hell of lot to ameliorate them. A lot of traps out there are will save, so reflex isn't an issue. And I've noticed even on the reflex saves, there are traps that do not seem to be affected by the IE at all. I was assuming this intentional and not a bug.
Lets take a look at some other effects and such on Amia and view the power they have over the setting.
Negative energy protection AKA"Bubbly potion" The target creature is rendered immune to all negative energy attacks(making all negative energy useless be it damage on weapons, or spell based), Immune to all supernatural ability damage and level drains, so makes poison,disease and crippling strike do nothing, and all the other effects that lower ones abilitys or drains levels.
Lesser mind blank
No, lets really look at it even if it was posted as a joke here. It renders the target creature immune to mind-affecting spells and spell-like effects, and removes all negative effects caused by such spells. that's very powerful in the setting as dazed, sleep, confused, stunned, paralysis, fear...ect all useless now
Heal Potions
Minor thing I have noticed in a few cases is DMs have to bump up the power of monsters to demi-god scales to beat the heal potion cool down against a group of players, can you think of what would happen if NPC started chugging heal potions it would be OP as hell, so instead they just super buff monsters to counter its effects.
Improved invisibility 50% chance to miss on attacks that would have hit, works very well to wait out the heal potion cool down.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
None of those things are really game breaking. Almost all potions are at a low caster level and can be easily dismissed with any caster PCs Disjunction. Then you can just have your way with them.
None of those things are really game breaking. Almost all potions are at a low caster level and can be easily dismissed with any caster PCs Disjunction. Then you can just have your way with them.
Well any potion has the CL of the character not what the potion is rated as. Unless you used Bard or something to skill dump as a melee, then it's at your Bard/caster CL (ie a 30 Fighter drinks a Mindblank, CL 30; 29 fighter/1 bard drinks Mindblank, CL 1; silly NWN lol).
But yeah Mord's will strip them.
Goldwater wrote:
Freedom is a better comparison.
IE and Freedom both work in that example, IE is worse because it's a class ability.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Comparisons are always clumsy and inadequate. You should not come up with artificial criteria like whether it's dispellable (when in fact you will rarely encounter dispels powerful enough to touch you) or a class feature. You need to look at statistics of how it's actually being used in game and whether people are getting disproportionate benefit from it. What it does to the game, in reality and not in principle, is what's at stake in balance discussions.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
The difference with IE and all these immunity potions is what matters to me. Mindblanks, Bubbly potions, Freedom, all of these things are easily accessible to every character - IE isn't, and nobody in their sane mind would really wear a Kumakawa permanently.
Irrelevant information: I just had a run to the Gauntlet in the night. Swapped armors and rushed the bridge. I lost about 40 of HP, tops, and my character has only around 25~ Reflex.
The whole point of epic loot is that it's not readily available and that it is stronger than other stuff by a fair margin. If anything, being able to compare potions and epic loot and conclude the former are more useful should be an argument in favor of increasing epic loot power, not the contrary. Let's not open the can of worms that is epic loot availability, though. If you play your PC for a few years and make contacts, you should be able to acquire some epic loot even without boss-running much yourself.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Its power to be striped has nothing to do with the other all greater effect on the server, even more so on a server where if you made them dispelled more, people would just bring more of the potion to counter that....because the potions are super cheap compared to the amount of gold people rake in. been to mind flayers at all PCs laugh at the so called effects of it being "strippable" they just spend a bit of extra gold and buy a few more mind blanks to counter, problem solved.
Also thats like saying a AoE spell that scales 1d2,2d4,4d8,8d16,16d32,32d64,64d128....ect is fine because they can move out in 6-18 seconds befor it gets to strong.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
The basic imbalance of Amia* is that tanks need buffers much more than buffers need tanks. The trade-off is that when you are a highly buffed tank, you are a juggernaut of dhoom, and also that if you are caught unbuffed you're still okay, but if you integrate under time/pwn line, the buffers come out streets ahead.
I don't think exacerbating this imbalance is a great idea, and that's what zorking the good potions would do.
*and probably all of NWN, but the overwhelming majority of my NWN time has been here, so I said 'Amia'.
I agree, keep Epic loot Epic! And make DC gear a bit more Epic in the process. As someone whose only ever requested 1 item and had to scrimp and save every DC to get something (that as I recall, I may have never actually paid for and received), I think it could stand to have a power boost.
Because at the end of the day, boss running is just letting the NWN RNG decide who gets a buff and who gets nada, or a club. Meanwhile people are RPing - and this is something that the DM staff are A) primarily interested in(?), B) the server exists for and C) it's a damn sight less random.
That someone who is RPing worthy of getting a DC is worthwhile of equal recognition to the ability of creating a character build which can tap the very highest reaches of the loot-bin.
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Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?
I'm usually the first person to argue in favor of making rogues awesomer, which would definitely happen if IE was only available through the appropriate character classes. But, I'm kind of compelled by the arguments above that IE is kind of overrated and just not impressive enough to get worked up over. I mean, it's good, and worth having if you can get it, but NWN/Amia doesn't seem to be set up to throw around huge numbers of area-of-effect spells. This seems like pretty much a non-issue to me.
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
If it's nothing to get worked up over, it shouldn't be an issue if it's removed.
I mean, logically speaking, if something's not a big deal if it's gone... it shouldn't matter.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 17 Oct 2012 Location: A hut in Howness. (GMT+2)
Naivatkal wrote:
If it's nothing to get worked up over, it shouldn't be an issue if it's removed.
I mean, logically speaking, if something's not a big deal if it's gone... it shouldn't matter.
And if its not an issue...there shouldn't be a need to remove it?
Hurrrr.
_________________ Characters: Elder Torsten Eadgarsson "He’d only shown the best of intentions. Firm but not unreasonable. Eager to protect what was his but not eager to overextend his reach, to push himself on to others."
That's the opposite of logic, Naivy. If a thing is not a big deal, leave it be. Removing things from the mod should be reserved for things that actually are broken or overpowered.
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
The problem is the people that work on balancing the server are calling it OP but the people that use it are saying it's no big deal. Well it must be if people are calling it OP from a balance perspective. So if it's 'not a big deal' why do people foam at the mouth over IE rings?
So the logic is actually decent, when you think about it, because it is actually a big deal.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
The problem is the people that work on balancing the server are calling it OP but the people that use it are saying it's no big deal. Well it must be if people are calling it OP from a balance perspective. So if it's 'not a big deal' why do people foam at the mouth over IE rings?
So the logic is actually decent, when you think about it, because it is actually a big deal.
I would point out balance if anything has become even less so over the last year or so, NPC monsters +8 weapons weapons , 2d12 magic bolts, +20 Mighty, keen, imp crit and devcrit X bows? 3 or so G-ruins uses in a row just to name a few of the things I have encountered in some DM events. If the people who are balancing are not the same people, you have a bigger group undoing your work you have to focus on then a few items at shops or DC requests.
The things we are fighting are god like in scale, PC have to do everything in their very limited power (because of so called "OOC balance restrictions") to try and keep up with it but we are failing.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
Or tone down things from the PC side so we can tone down the NPCs as well. Because god-like NPCs against god-ish PCs means regular PCs are screwed even more.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
I don't mind if I lose mine. I got by just fine before I ever had it. Though it would be kind of irksome since I spent so long hunting for it. It would be nice if they were replaced with something comparable, though. Ring of Power, too. Some more epic rings would be nice, in general. There's not much out there.
First of all, Mindblanks should NEVER be removed, in my opinion. Mages are already powerful, making something more powerful wouldn't gain us anything methinks.
The point of the list of potions/effects I listed was not so much about removing them as it was to point out that other things in the game have such a larger impact then Improved Evasion ever has or will.
I would love for DMs to comment on this next question in full truth and honesty.
In how many events (Your own or others) has the outcome of the PCs been greatly effected by said spells/potions/wands if not the sole reason for the outcome. (Negative energy protection, Lesser mind blank, Improved invisibility and Heal potions.) And then how many times have you had to buff the monsters or make changes because of them. I assume heal potions on the top of the list.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
The DM team isn't really in the business in of grandfathering but a suitable replacement will be given to those that have an IE ring. If we decide to remove it.
There are countless examples of grandfathering on Amia. Why would this change now?
There are countless examples of grandfathering on Amia. Why would this change now?
The DMs have only said they're discussing it. Assuming one thing or another because someone fears the worst is really not good forum business practice.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
We agree in one thing: Improved evasion as an item property is an aberration. It's something far too powerful that requires investment in a sort of roguish class. It's one of the main components of these kind of characters, but with enough time to bosshunt, any character may get the ring (and a mountain of sureforged clubs in the process). This is not fair. It is my personal opinion that bosshunting and grinding is a tedious task, and I didn't came to Amia to bore myself to death while rushing spawns in hope to finally roll below 6% and get something valuable. If I want my character to grow better and acquire something that fits his build, I am forced to waste -a lot- of time that I may as well be spending in something that I actually enjoy! I may be the only one with this opinion as well.
Bosshunting is a necessary evil, from my point of view, that is alright. If I wanted to change the systems, this would be posted in the IA forum.
I'm not quite sure what your stance on boss hunting is, but it seems moreso against the idea of having to do it, sort of. If so, I say what would separate those characters who's goal it is to seek power?
And it's not an evil by any means, it's a good, for those that wish to pursue it, to attain a goal they seek. A means to sift the good from the great, ICly of course. Perseverance, skill, and a little luck. But mostly statistics! (49% to find epic loot after 13 attempts)
To the topic at hand: Imp. Evasion, isn't that big a deal. It's nice to have for certain situations, but it's just like wearing a glove; protects your hand from dirt, but the rest of you can still get dirty. There's other ways to damage. As it stands now, there's ways around everything. I don't feel like removing one option of protection is a way of improving things, but the opposite. Takes away from the complexity, and that's bleh.
I'm usually the first person to argue in favor of making rogues awesomer, which would definitely happen if IE was only available through the appropriate character classes. But, I'm kind of compelled by the arguments above that IE is kind of overrated and just not impressive enough to get worked up over. I mean, it's good, and worth having if you can get it, but NWN/Amia doesn't seem to be set up to throw around huge numbers of area-of-effect spells. This seems like pretty much a non-issue to me.
See thing is, it actually does, it's just not seen. I know when I make a new dungeon or adjust an existing one, I've lost count of the number of times I've gone to put in a neat environmental effect or some unusual challenge and then realized, "Dammit... Evasion and Improved Evasion work on that."
Now, if it were just the classes that had those things, no biggie. That's one of the perks of those classes. But when you have to stop because you know that anyone can have access to that, and most of the people you're trying to make things actually challenging for, have that especially... well it kinda defeats the purpose, I'm sure you can see.
So on the surface? No, maybe not a huge difference. I dunno, I'm not as good at examining item balance as some of the other folks. But I am pretty solid at the Dev work I do and I can tell you that everyone having access to Imp Evasion put a huge crimp in what I can throw at folks to keep things interesting.
Naivatkal wrote:
Or tone down things from the PC side so we can tone down the NPCs as well. Because god-like NPCs against god-ish PCs means regular PCs are screwed even more.
This.
corypx wrote:
I would love for DMs to comment on this next question in full truth and honesty.
In how many events (Your own or others) has the outcome of the PCs been greatly effected by said spells/potions/wands if not the sole reason for the outcome. (Negative energy protection, Lesser mind blank, Improved invisibility and Heal potions.) And then how many times have you had to buff the monsters or make changes because of them. I assume heal potions on the top of the list.
None myself, because I don't run those sorts of events.
I dunno.. maybe im bad at this game. IE Ring makes me feel like i dont have to power build in 2 rogue. Does removing the ring really hurt the power level of high end chars, or just the normal ones trying to keep up without special builds? Sadly at the same time it means people can find even stronger builds without evasion and just slip on IE ring. I guess i see both perspectives.
Standard Liz disclaimer: I am a perfect idiot about build & balance stuff.
However! That being said, here's my line of thinking... It's the ability to take no damage at all on a passed save that rocks the world; the ability to take half damage on a failed save is nice, but it's only frosting on top of the delicious delicious cake which is evasion. Taking half of a crapload of damage on a failed save still adds up to a non-trivial amount of damage. Therefore, improved evasion is primarily only useful to people who don't already have regular evasion but also already do have high reflex saves.
But, it seems to me like anybody who's going to have a high enough reflex to make IE useful is already going to have regular evasion: high reflex saves come with monks, rogues, shadowdancers, assassins, and dex-fighters and dex-rangers and dex-bards who probably have dipped into one of those classes for evasion and tumble-dump. Giving them IE on top of their already-existing evasion is basically meaningless, because they're already evading all those AoE spells anyways. Your str-fighter or caster-cleric or mage types don't seem like they'd have a high enough reflex to get super power out of IE; they're going to be whiffing those saves all over the place and still taking non-trivial damage.
Which leaves basically your paladin / blackguard / divine champion types, who stack up saving throws like crazy but don't dip into dex classes to pick up regular evasion. Which... I don't know, are there enough of those running around with IE rings that they're throwing the whole server balance off? I guess I'm not qualified to say, but I'd guess not.
Or am I missing something (which seems very likely)?
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
I would love for DMs to comment on this next question in full truth and honesty.
In how many events (Your own or others) has the outcome of the PCs been greatly effected by said spells/potions/wands if not the sole reason for the outcome. (Negative energy protection, Lesser mind blank, Improved invisibility and Heal potions.) And then how many times have you had to buff the monsters or make changes because of them. I assume heal potions on the top of the list.
None myself, because I don't run those sorts of events.
Ok but you talked about Dev work then and IE effecting what you can do because of it, Negative energy protection, Lesser mind blank, Improved invisibility and Heal potions play no factor at all in the making of zones and its spawns in that regard?
I think Negative energy protection, Lesser mind blank and heal potions would play a bigger roll in the Dev work then IE because not everyone has it, and it uses a gear slot, where everyone can buy potions for NEP,LMB and Heal pots and it does not effect the gear they have on at all.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
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