AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I am not too sure where this post fits, and I am somehow sure that it has been brought up here before, but I believe deserves another shot here if it did.

As many others do, I sometimes get out and go "bossing" about in hope to get some epic items. There are not a gillion of epic dungeons on the server, and so it is very likely to run into other players doing the same thing. Often, you will find the epic boss has been killed before you, so it does not spawn. All that is fine.

HOWEVER, more and more I am witnessing a decline in sportsmanship, and an increase in bad behaviours and abuses. This has to stop, seriously.

Here are the three things I am talking about and which I do not consider to be acceptable.

1) Rush Downs

By that I mean a group (or a soloer, who knows) that simply skip every single fight as they go and simply rush to the epic boss. Clear your freaking spawn.

2) Wand of Epic Boss

You get into a dungeon, kill all the spawns, proceed your way through the dungeon, arrive at the boss spawn, and the boss has been killed. How? They fought the boss, logged or waited, got another party member in by using their wand 15 mins later, skipping the entire dungeon in the process. That's clear and obvious abuse.

3) Rush Downs (part 2)

You get into a dungeon, kill the spawns (if any), proceed your way through the dungeon (well, let's call it that for now), arrive at the boss room and realize only the one that drops epic drop has been killed, leaving the challenging one (yes, I'm talking about the pirate/chest) behind to fight the next group that will show up, also effectively blocking the respawn for them. If you can't kill both, don't spawn them and go elsewhere. Clear your freaking spawns..........

Do we seriously need dms/scripters to work on a punitive solution? Seriously people, just have some fairplay and common sense. If you can't have a party that can deal with these bosses, then find one! There are countless of people hunting these bosses, just wait at one of the spawns and one will show up that you can board on with (if you're really that desperate).

Mushidoz wrote:

1) Rush Downs

By that I mean a group (or a soloer, who knows) that simply skip every single fight as they go and simply rush to the epic boss. Clear your freaking spawn.

As a player of a dedicated sneak, I'll defend this practice. Being able to stealth past things that you can't fight, or don't want to fight, is among the core purposes of playing a sneak.

Liz wrote:

Mushidoz wrote:

1) Rush Downs

By that I mean a group (or a soloer, who knows) that simply skip every single fight as they go and simply rush to the epic boss. Clear your freaking spawn.

As a player of a dedicated sneak, I'll defend this practice. Being able to stealth past things that you can't fight, or don't want to fight, is among the core purposes of playing a sneak.

QFE for a sneaker too.

Also as much as I agree with most of the points (Being a victim to bumping to a wand-jumping party) these things are best reported as a case-by-case basis.

Last edited by Mushidoz on Sun, Jan 05 2014, 22:53 PM, edited 2 times in total.

And I'll call it disrespectful, cheating, selfish, poor sportsmanship, and abusive. The rule of thumb is -> if you spawn it, you kill it. If you can't, then you shouldn't be there and should turn back and fetch people to help you do it. If you can kill the epic boss at the end of that dungeon/place, though, great chances you can also kill what you spawned on your way there, so there shouldn't be excuses on that level. Unless you also sneak passed the actual epic boss and leave it alive too, then I won't have complain about you hiding from stuff that can kill you.. but then, what are you doing there? <.<

Quote:

these things are best reported as a case-by-case basis.

That's the thing, you don't usually -see- the ones that do it.

It's not an excuse. It's an RP decision. My sneak doesn't like to get into unnecessary fights. Sneaking past the guards to get to the real target is completely legit, and isn't "cheating" in the slightest.

I don't want to be mean, but you're making it sound like it's okay for someone take no risks and get the high reward, while others take all the risks to get nothing.

Yep, that's just what I'm saying, basically. It's an entirely IC concern: my character isn't obligated to have any regard for the people who might be coming down the dungeon behind her.

You go to assassinate a politician. You kill every single person in the building first.
From an IC standpoint that makes no sense, but from a sportsmanship standpoint, I don't know, seems kind of dorky.

If you're following someone closely enough that you're catching up to their spawns, probably best to wait a few minutes. They have despawning scripts for a reason.

From IC point it's fine to sneak around a kill the target.

But that's once, I don't think one can call it IC and continue killing one guy 10 times.

If you're of a mind to kill the spawns, why does it matter if someone spawned them first?

I concur that it doesn't seem fair for a single person to sneak around and kill bosses many many times, but they only spawn once per reset - it's not like he's killing that boss all day.

As well, if you even -think- someone else is in the epic dungeon you're in, you can go slow, or just wait a few minutes, and then go through. I've never had one of the situations you're talking about happen in my Illithid or Manor of Mourne hunts on Vaaros.

Rushing past spawns is acceptable in the rules and has been stated in the past by the DMs, but they also state its not looked upon fondly by the DM team.

The three are against the rules, or so I've been told.

Well, in the first case I don't know if sneaks apply, but I'll obviate that topic for the moment.
And the third, well. I've been left to clean the pirate without chest more than one time, and it's not alright.

I've never seen the wand-to-boss, technique, but that's simply wrong. As it is waiting silently at the door of an epic waiting for it to respawn.

Let's agree that bosshunting is a pain in the ass, it's boring, and mostly frustrating, and I can understand people skipping the spawns. Hells, I've skipped the spawns before, but I try to be a nice sport and keep it legit.

Unless the DM ruling has changed, you can skip and run pass monsters all you want.

It used to be a rule years ago before the despawn script because it would cause all sort of problems, but after it was added you became free to run past monsters, as was said by WonWon,Tormak,Peeves....ect in the past. unless the rule has changed again and was not stated more clear to the public, rule was lasted updated back in 2010-2011?.

The official stance is this: You are allowed to sneak past or otherwise bypass spawns. What you are NOT allowed to do is sneak past or bypass any other player if they're already in a dungeon. If you have claim to a dungeon, it's fine. If you don't, it's not.

An example: I'm a rogue in the Yuan-ti. I'm allowed to sneak past the mobs and murderize Babylon freely, as there are no other players in the dungeon, and I will not be moving past anybody. However, if I find somebody in the lair who arrived before me, I am NOT allowed to move past them. They were in the dungeon first, and thus have the right to fight mobs or skip them as they see fit.

Skipping past mobs isn't the most favourable practice, but it is entirely legitimate, and there are numerous IC reasons as to why people do it. If you aren't breaking the OOC rule of passing people, you're fine to do it.

#3 would fall under what Manarethan said, since you spawn it, you get the choice. #2 could potentially be ok. The way each of these have been described are incredibly loaded. It's not to do with bad sportsmanship at all.

Another player made it aware to me that it is also abuse for casters to use your familiar to summon epic bosses. I had done this before, because I found it convenient other than throwing my PC out there in the middle of a boss room as a decoy while I cast, but apparently, using your familiar can exceed your boss-spawn rate per reset. So do not do that, whoever does that, it makes me look bad!

Ahem...

Lawls,

This comes up every so often when someone is ganked by a spawn unexpectedly by teleporting in.
Drop it, move in, pretend ICly you are to totally badass that the bad guys were to scared to come at you. I do it every morning,

Aiseth wrote:

Another player made it aware to me that it is also abuse for casters to use your familiar to summon epic bosses. I had done this before, because I found it convenient other than throwing my PC out there in the middle of a boss room as a decoy while I cast, but apparently, using your familiar can exceed your boss-spawn rate per reset. So do not do that, whoever does that, it makes me look bad!

How is using a familiar against the rules? Can someone confirm that this is against the rules?

Using the familiar to spawn a boss isn't against the rules, I believe. (Though I am not a DM.) What's against the rules is using a familiar to spawn a boss more often per reset than you'd otherwise be able to.

I think that the aformentioned exploit has been fixed. If so, using your familiar is fine. If the exploit still exists, don't trigger the boss with your familiar. But yeah, pretty sure it's fine.

Manarethan wrote:

The official stance is this: You are allowed to sneak past or otherwise bypass spawns. What you are NOT allowed to do is sneak past or bypass any other player if they're already in a dungeon. If you have claim to a dungeon, it's fine. If you don't, it's not.

An example: I'm a rogue in the Yuan-ti. I'm allowed to sneak past the mobs and murderize Babylon freely, as there are no other players in the dungeon, and I will not be moving past anybody. However, if I find somebody in the lair who arrived before me, I am NOT allowed to move past them. They were in the dungeon first, and thus have the right to fight mobs or skip them as they see fit.

Skipping past mobs isn't the most favourable practice, but it is entirely legitimate, and there are numerous IC reasons as to why people do it. If you aren't breaking the OOC rule of passing people, you're fine to do it.

Why isn't ninja activity forbidden anyway? I know that whenever there's a large group of PCs, NPCs (Kohlingen's marketplace mess), or mobiles in an area, my client is more likely to crash.

Also, if a ninja's turn comes before a party, and the party takes its turn next, isn't the party deprived of its monster spot checks if the monsters are already spawned?

I don't understand your question. If somebody is in a dungeon when another group enters, the person who was there first has rights to the dungeon, whether they're fighting or sneaking. It's kinda annoying for the party, but it's entirely the right of the person sneaking to remain there.

Why would ninja activity be forbidden? I don't get what your meaning is there.

Manarethan wrote:

I don't understand your question. If somebody is in a dungeon when another group enters, the person who was there first has rights to the dungeon, whether they're fighting or sneaking. It's kinda annoying for the party, but it's entirely the right of the person sneaking to remain there.

Why would ninja activity be forbidden? I don't get what your meaning is there.

Boring rule. Let people fight over a dungeon insteaD!

Don't be ridiculous.

Manarethan wrote:

Don't be ridiculous.

Im not. There's so much rp that goes missing when people meet eachother in a dungeon. Either they go OOC, or make some odd and immersion breaking IC response and ... Everything just turns into poop

The rule might be there to prevent griefing; But then again its a major cock-block

Fighting over a dungeon? Yes, that's ridiculous. Hooray, cheese-builds and boss-farmers will crush anyone who oppose them, and claim the dungeons. If you're not RPing with the people who appear behind or ahead of you in dungeons, that's unfortunate, because there are a myriad of entirely IC things you can do. Talk to them, for instance.

Okay. You can play the paladin and i play the blackguard; Make sure you notice the Undead by my side and the child's head i have hanging from my belt.

Let's talk ... ? And then You will be on your merry way because my character was there in the first place ... ?

:?:

Very_Svensk wrote:

Manarethan wrote:

I don't understand your question. If somebody is in a dungeon when another group enters, the person who was there first has rights to the dungeon, whether they're fighting or sneaking. It's kinda annoying for the party, but it's entirely the right of the person sneaking to remain there.

Why would ninja activity be forbidden? I don't get what your meaning is there.

Boring rule. Let people fight over a dungeon insteaD!

I am actually leaning towards that idea. I mean really... an "evil" toon, or a group of less than honorable PC's go into a dungeon and find someone there, or two. I see it as more fitting that the evil pc's would intimidate the others into leaving to get the creatures and loot.

But then again... you cant upset some peoples fragile senses cause they might cry and bitch to a DM about it. Funny how it is ok to sneak passed spawns leaving them for others to go after a boss and take the said boss loot from the people who actually do the work, but not ok to tell some lone pc to get on or get monkey stomped...

Manarethan wrote:

I don't understand your question. If somebody is in a dungeon when another group enters, the person who was there first has rights to the dungeon, whether they're fighting or sneaking. It's kinda annoying for the party, but it's entirely the right of the person sneaking to remain there.

Why would ninja activity be forbidden? I don't get what your meaning is there.

Ninja-looting is pretty much what this thread is about, the idea that someone can bypass monsters in a dungeon just to quickly acquire something valuable, while other classes might still have to fight the old hard way in groups. Usually there's a requirement that people "clean up" their own spawns for the good and welfare of the game (no unfair Doomspawns for the next people approaching the dungeon, no taxing of the game's system resources, encourages parties, etc.).

Since I created Gael, I've never seen a party where I had to wait for another party to play through, or another party had to wait for mine. Of course, I'm not in many parties, and evildoers and goodbies will probably be fighting over their differences rather than who goes first.

Roleplay comes before hunting. If you have a paladin who spots an undead in the party ahead you approach them. talk to them, if it comes to PvP and you happen to win, just move on to another dungeon and don't take theirs. Simple!

Last edited by Butler on Mon, Jan 06 2014, 6:02 AM, edited 1 time in total.

666WaysToHell wrote:

Roleplay comes before hunting. If you have a paladin who spots an undead in the party ahead you approach them. talk to them, if it comes to PvP and you happen to win, just move on to another dungeon and don't take theirs. Simple!

Doesn't even have to go OOC, since no rules get broken in this situation mentioned. ^ I agree with this. Simple!

LordSithaelon wrote:

I am actually leaning towards that idea. I mean really... an "evil" toon, or a group of less than honorable PC's go into a dungeon and find someone there, or two. I see it as more fitting that the evil pc's would intimidate the others into leaving to get the creatures and loot.

But then again... you cant upset some peoples fragile senses cause they might cry and bitch to a DM about it. Funny how it is ok to sneak passed spawns leaving them for others to go after a boss and take the said boss loot from the people who actually do the work, but not ok to tell some lone pc to get on or get monkey stomped...

I think its to stop Amia from degrading back too how it used to be in Amia forest back 3-4 years ago and befor....the so called "evil" was just looking to PVP non-stop. but back then they could chug heal pots and just wait for you to roll a 1 vs dev crit. But people would go to Amia forest with undead and crap just to force themselves into a PVP situation, hell even afew times they OOC said if your a druid or ranger and don't kill the undead your RPing wrong and should be fallen.....

You kinda derailed the topic here...

666WaysToHell wrote:

Roleplay comes before hunting. If you have a paladin who spots an undead in the party ahead you approach them. talk to them, if it comes to PvP and you happen to win, just move on to another dungeon and don't take theirs. Simple!

Exactly this. We are not going to have 'who is better at PvP' be the decider in who has claim to a dungeon. If you are there first, you have claim. PvP and hostile situations don't mean another person can take claim to the dungeon you and your group are in. Coming into a dungeon already claimed, PvPing the party in there and then taking their claim is against the server rules, and that isn't changing. The exception to this is, of course, if -both- parties agree that the claim can be decided by PvP, and then do so (following all PvP rules and with suitable RP).

Sometimes another group will come across another who just killed a boss. They often use their wand to go somewhere else until the boss spawns 15 minutes later. I don't understand how that's abuse.

Also, sometimes I can't find a parking space because reality is unfair.

Wonder what would happen to RP if the bosses went away and there was no more epic loot to auction off?

inprison666 wrote:

Wonder what would happen to RP if the bosses went away and there was no more epic loot to auction off?

Those with Epic loot already would be filthy rich?

1) There is absolutely no rule preventing you from starting a fight over a dungeon if it's logical. You just can't keep the dungeon if you were the second one in. It's a fair rule, kill the character, if it makes RP sense, (Paladin vs Corpse-lugger as an example) and give them an OOC raise, because it's a dick move not to, then get yourself out of there.

2) I'd prefer soloers to run concealed past mobs, because I can kill those mobs myself and get xp and loot, and because getting stuck behind a soloer grinding everything when I have a party that could do it four times faster sucks badly.

3) In the circle of players I play with, we have an OOC gentle-persons way of dealing with it. If I'm soloing and a party comes up behind me, I'll figure out some way of conceding the ground to them depending on how my particular character would react. I refuse to be a dick about such things.

4) A leveling Party doesn't give a shit about epic bosses and prefers you sink an invisibility potion and leave all the mobs in your wake. True story.

5) Don't be a dick. If you port in to do a run on fire giants and then an entire party ports in after you. Don't be a dick. They will do the dungeon exponentially faster than you and you can always come back later. Or get yourself a party.

6) Being overly concerned with epic dungeons is silly. Rather than bitching about there being to few, come up with some idea's for the development team to make more epic dungeons that fit into Amia's canon. This relates to the above point. Don't be a dick.

7) Stop thinking everything on Amia that things that annoy you, are there to inconvenience you. I know for a fact that if I'm out trying to get levels that the death by a thousand cuts Monk in front of me that takes more than 60 seconds to polish of one spawn of Illithids is annoying the fuck out of my entire party. Sink an invisibility potion, run to the boss, don't be a dick.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Manarethan wrote:

Don't be ridiculous.

Im not. There's so much rp that goes missing when people meet eachother in a dungeon. Either they go OOC, or make some odd and immersion breaking IC response and ... Everything just turns into poop

The rule might be there to prevent griefing; But then again its a major cock-block

Might doesnt make right. Your powerbuild/Char stuffed with epic loot doesnt have a claim over the casual player(s) who got there first and want a shot at some epic stuff as well and thats how it should be and remain. Amia isn't a pvp server.

Very_Svensk wrote:

inprison666 wrote:

Wonder what would happen to RP if the bosses went away and there was no more epic loot to auction off?

Those with Epic loot already would be filthy rich?

Doesn't answer the question.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Manarethan wrote:

I don't understand your question. If somebody is in a dungeon when another group enters, the person who was there first has rights to the dungeon, whether they're fighting or sneaking. It's kinda annoying for the party, but it's entirely the right of the person sneaking to remain there.

Why would ninja activity be forbidden? I don't get what your meaning is there.

Boring rule. Let people fight over a dungeon insteaD!

Sweet, so I'll just wait hidden/invis'd until you get to the boss and spawn it, then shank you with PowerBuilt_#359 and take any loot that shows up. Might makes right, right? I mean, it's utterly YOUR fault for not making a BETTER powerbuild than mine or not having less of a life than me and spending 24/7 running bosses in favor of going to work/spending time with your family/etc.

Utterly RP and incharacter! We should do it! Yeah... No thanks.

inprison666 wrote:

Wonder what would happen to RP if the bosses went away and there was no more epic loot to auction off?

You'd have a server full of old characters with insane advantages over everyone else and people all wearing the same things, standing around in town all the time at max level because there's little else to do. In other words, you'd have Arelith.

The wand thing is pretty garbage though and needs to be fixed as you're basically just being a dick and "running by" people without running by them.

inprison666 wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

inprison666 wrote:

Wonder what would happen to RP if the bosses went away and there was no more epic loot to auction off?

Those with Epic loot already would be filthy rich?

Doesn't answer the question.

It does, actually. Those with epic items will still have them, and the prices of existing epic items will skyrocket. Removing Bosses or changing them to drop normal loot makes them somewhat irrelevant. If you're complaining that others have epic loot and you don't- deal with it or do something about it. This has been brought up more than enough times already. If you have a pure rp build, then ask for some DC items.

Murex wrote:

Sometimes another group will come across another who just killed a boss. They often use their wand to go somewhere else until the boss spawns 15 minutes later. I don't understand how that's abuse.

Also, sometimes I can't find a parking space because reality is unfair.

I came across a party doing this, I had to solo all of spires, get to the boss without a spawn, backtrack to the transition to wait for respawns only to find a group magically appearing ahead where I just was. Is it so hard to just wait IN the dungeon for a respawn?

It is because you are breaking the server rules by waiting for respawns. Camping is a no-no and I don't think that's changed. That greed thing. Makes me lulz.

MoshingChris wrote:

It is because you are breaking the server rules by waiting for respawns. Camping is a no-no and I don't think that's changed. That greed thing. Makes me lulz.

Would leaving by wand count as this?

Also I'd much rather see the people camp and report them than to rerun the dungeon just to find tyey ported back when I restarted

Using the wand in that fashion is camping and an exploit by using out of character knowledge to know exactly how long to wait until a boss is ready to respawn. It's why I wanted to remove the return to function from portal wands (and still do).

Last edited by Kamina on Mon, Jan 06 2014, 8:49 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I'd like to pose a question in general: Do you personally view hunting/dungeon running/grinding an mainly IC or OOC thing? If you pick either there's no wrong here.

I ask this mainly because I think it's to do with the mentality here. If a newbie joins the game, wants to level up but is greeted to either people wanting them to OOC hurry up with saying/doing something IC like *Looks to the Goblin's corpse, at the Heavy Flail it just dropped on to the floor.* "I never knew such a small being could hold such a thing! The last time I saw one of these was way back when I..." and so on, OR they may have the opposite where they want people to OOC hurry up when IC things go on.

If newer players are taught dungeons are mostly OOC, they risk breaking the rules such as camping spawns, running ahead of groups and the like, not because they're unaware the rules exist, but to them dungeons are NOT an in character thing, while if they are taught dungeons are mostly IC, they risk getting OOC comments about wanting to get faster XP/to the epic boss faster.

MoshingChris wrote:

6) Being overly concerned with epic dungeons is silly. Rather than bitching about there being to few, come up with some idea's for the development team to make more epic dungeons that fit into Amia's canon.

Actually I have six new ones already planned out and three redesigns planned out. Don't really need more ideas, just need to clone myself

This needs to stop.

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