AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I don't rightly know if this word has been discussed elsewhere in this forum but recently a particular northerner who hates all but humans(apparently) informed me ooc that racist was too modern a word or an idea to fit into the forgotten realms campaign setting. As I have only otherwise played Greyhawk, Planescape, and Dark Sun can someone clarify this to me? Can someone's character act racist without being racist? It rather gets under my skin when someone goes OOC on me like that. If I'm somehow wrong in my assumption I'll start pretending otherwise.

In my DM experience in FR, I've never encountered sources saying Racist is modern but neither have I seen any saying otherwise. DM ruling I say.

Just keep using it to spite them!

It's stupid to say 'racist' is a too-modern term, because how do you know it wasn't developed in Faerun? I'd tell them to cite a credible canon source that says it's not lore-friendly

Simple. Racism is alive and well in the Forgotten Realms (everyone knows Tuigans are ignorant horse-eating savages) as is speciesism (everyone knows goblins have huge noses, oversized feet and smell terrible.)

Racism is absolutely a large element of the Forgotten Realms. Oddly enough, what likely isn't a word used in the setting is "Racism" or "Racist". At least, the setting is likely designed that way. Racism and Racist have a really negative connotation, but in the setting, Racism isn't exactly viewed negatively. Its just a thing.

But our modern minds have a very difficult time separating this distinction. And that's probably good, because it means we're all decent human beings IRL. There's a lot that bleeds into the Faerun setting from our modern mentalities, and rather than getting into a fit over it, I just sort of accept that it happens.

To very straightly answer your question: Racism is totally a thing on Amia. Orcs on humans, humans on orcs, Elves on Drow, Elves on N'Tel-Quessir. There's even a lot of regional, but non-race prejudices. Like Cordor and Kohlingen, Uhm and all outsiders. Civilized folk against those who live on the Spine. These sort of prejudices and examples of racism are great fuel for conflict, and in my opinion, helps create a harsher, more real setting. Its also a great flaw to give to your character, as well-- usually presenting a number of Rp possibilities.

To clarify: Racism might be a more modern term, but the act is certainly not. And since we can't exactly retcon every character who's ever said the word "Racism" (As quite a few have), its just better that we permit the term in our setting too.

Oh, and I suppose the examples I gave above were more... species-ism.. Maybe thats the term that hasn't developed yet in our setting, haha!

Mr. Hackums wrote:

Racism is totally a thing on Amia. Orcs on humans, humans on orcs, Elves on Drow, Elves on N'Tel-Quessir

You say racism, I say high-quality porn.

But yes, that's basically what I meant. There's no word for racism because it's not racism in FR. It's life. Kinda like in our sketchy past. There was a time when 'racism' wasn't a word, because that was just how the world was.

edit: Yeah, species-ism actually makes a lot more sense, but 'race' is the colloquial term for 'species' in the game, it seems, haha.

Since we can legitimately say "discriminating based on race" just say racism. I mean, fuck, we're all using anachronistic English anyway, as long as you don't refer to technology which doesn't exist. The same applies for sexism.

And race isn't the "colloquial" term for species, it is the term. "Races of Faerun", not "Species of Faerun". In fact, calling goblins a species is colloquial by the modern definition of the word.

Serbiris! Anachronistic means out of time. We're using a language that for FR is not merely out of time, but out of reality! As a language guru, what would we call that? That discussion was had before and I came up with some neologism to describe it, but...

I Yeah I figured this would be the consensus. The problem in this instants was I believe he expected Dirgesh to be racist toward humans so I had no other word to use to describe his attitude. I couldnt say "shutup hooman scum" Dirg wouldnt say that. He even assumed every word I spoke which was half planar cant half common tongue was spoken in an orcish dialect. No room for originality. Thanks for the feedback.

I meant it in the sense that it's designed that way, not that we hackneyed it in haha. Technically elves and humans and dwarves and such are different species, races is more like 'breeds of a species' if you look at it like a dog or animal or something (to be crude about it). So the designers used races instead of species (probably because it seemed more friendly) and there you have it.

Or at least that's my shaky grasp of species vs race.

It's only racism if you're of the same species with the other person, or creature. You're not a racist if you hate on dogs, elephants or monkeys. If some random carebear in-game can't tell the difference, fix their brain with a cudgel.

Yossarin wrote:

Serbiris! Anachronistic means out of time. We're using a language that for FR is not merely out of time, but out of reality! As a language guru, what would we call that? That discussion was had before and I came up with some neologism to describe it, but...

Anapragmatistic?

Amalgamation!

I like this game!

Yossarin wrote:

Serbiris! Anachronistic means out of time. We're using a language that for FR is not merely out of time, but out of reality! As a language guru, what would we call that? That discussion was had before and I came up with some neologism to describe it, but...

Yeah I remember the discussion. I think anachronism still applies in many, because the underlying assumption is that the words will eventually become appropriate.

I don't think the term actually exists, but if it did maybe a philosopher speculating on alternate realities might have come up with it? It seems a pretty niche thing. Otherwise you'd have to invent it.

Besides, while "anachronism" does specifically refer to time in its etymology, it can generalise to cover reality. Words legitimately do that all the time!

... What? I'm a Linguist and a descriptivist, at that. Not a pedant. ... Mostly.

Well, if you make the stretch and consider the Forgotten Realms occupying a space rather than a time - as in, an alternate universe that is moreso out of space than out of time, or perhaps within our "headspace" of the imagination - then anatopism would be a fit. Anachronisms are all definitely anatopisms, but not all anatopisms are necessarily anachronisms, such as references to the Silk Road in precolonial America. It would have been referenced in other parts of the world, but not in that unsettled territory.

... That was the word! I remember using that word the last time we discussed it. Yeah, it's probably more appropriate. It's also more generalised than anachronism by default. Mystery solved!

I think you can say any 20th century word you think fits your style. I like a fusion of universality with the voice canon of the Forgotten Realms, and the player who plays the character. Sticklers who even frown on the word "Fuck!" I just ignore their criticisms. In game, I use the word Liberal, Fascist, anorexia, Racist, existential, P.R., epilepsy, communion, lobbyist, terrorist, censorship, anxiety, bitch, extortion, synchronicity (as in I dreamed about a cat and I woke up and drank out of a mug of coffee with a picture of a cat on it.), superfluous... whatever I want to say when I want to say it. Everyone is free to bring whatever temporal flare they wish to bring, and no one can really police the language of others, except DMs. When characters say something like: "What is a bra?" My character just passes that character off as an idiot albeit with discretion. Just use the language that marries what is best between you and your character. Stretch what is canon to Forgotten Realms, I think you have that entitlement as author of your character/s. Shitstorms, Isms, and all.

To be fair if you talk about marijuana you're going to be called a fool IC, though, unless you clarify ;p Even with clarity though, people will write it off as something your character calls it (cause it's not called that IG). So you have to be careful with what you say, still. Same goes for any other drugs and stuff. Some things convert, other things are called other things and if there's already a canon/lore name for something then calling it something else just makes people go 'wat'.

But Naivatkal, I've already used marijuana references ICly. Am I going to say that the marijuana was purple kush, or 'pot'? No, that's pushing it, I agree. Give them the rose and the whole rose, but never show them the aphids crawling on the rose. Too much precision fails. That's when your shit starts to stink. Also, it's a lot easier to say than Perfectly Illegal Pipe Herbs. Though there is a time to say Perfectly Illegal Pipe Herbs versus Marijuana, but that's still an aesthetic thing. Again, I have no problem breaking down the forth wall when appropriate. I may even make a cocoa plant reference! You just never know. And I really don't care what other characters say or do in reaction, it doesn't stop me when I mean to be silly.

Okay.

I beg of thee!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't this.

Prove to me the word racist has never been used in the FR setting. Prove to me the word marijuana has NEVER been used in the setting. Prove to me people didn't know there was iron in your blood in this setting.

Please.. allow some freaking leeway folks. This gets ridiculous. I'm pretty sure FR wasn't meant to be played 24/7/365 for YEARS!!!! Yer gonna run out of words to explain shtuff.

/rant

On this racism thing, I think the issues crop up more with how modern the ideals of PCs come across and change Amia. Attitudes towards kobolds and goblins, for example, tend to land the character who is racist against them in trouble, rather than those characters being seen as the norm. Faerun-wide, it's pretty normal to have a healthy amount of distrust/dislike/outright hatred of goblins and kobolds, who are monster races. On Amia, kobolds are cute little cuddly things. Same goes for Drow, tieflings, etc. Racism certainly exists on Amia, and I feel like the more of it there is, the better.

It definitely comes down to how you think about your own character, their history or interaction with these races, but don't forget those little details such as the folk-lore that your character would have learnt/heard about whilst growing up, or lessons their parents might have taught them, or general rumor, etc. These are powerful forces which build attitudes towards things.

The word 'racist' isn't such a bad thing to be used on Amia, but the negative attitude towards a racist, etc, doesn't really fit.

Last edited by Ice on Fri, Dec 27 2013, 5:04 AM, edited 1 time in total.

WHO ARE YOU CALLING CUTE, CUR?

But let me say something constructive: Racism seen by the common folk is... non-existent. It is not racism. It is just things are. Now, we don't play the common folk (well, some of us do, but they are boring), and for such we don't have to be necessarily tied to that philosophy.

IE: I play the usual non-traditionalist kobold (which is mostly a copperkin than a kobold, actually) and his perspective over everything is pretty much open, as he believes in individualism... except when it comes to goblins. He haaaaaates goblins, and he can't help it... though if he gets to know one he can pardon that individual, but his perspective is pretty much set.

This I think would never have come up if Dirgesh responded to the racism with more racism. However as many may know Dirgesh isn't from Toril nor was he raised by an orc tribe to hate the human race. He could have handled the prejudice ic but instead sent tells complaining that my rp was flawed in some way and if I didn't stop he would walk away nullifying the encounter. Things shouldn't be so cookie cutter

Gorthod is a racist tiefling if that helps! But lets refrain from bringing specific examples into the thread, if there's a player dispute you should be throwing PMs at DMs.

Well if it gets to that point I will definitely pm a dm. It was however not a big issue to me I just wanted clarity that I wasn't in the wrong. Dirgesh also has some prejudice just not toward humans.

The only objection I have to the word "racist" is that we've imbued it with such loaded connotations. You can't call someone a racist in RL without basically accusing them of being a skinhead swatstika-tattooed klansman. In the FR, "racism" as a concept is just common sense. I with there was another word for it that we could encourage people to use, but I don't know of one.

Inprison, if your objector goes OOC on you again, ask what word you should use instead of "racist" to describe "someone who judges people according to their race." If no concise and satisfactory answer is forthcoming, the debate is over and you've won.

In the context of racism... if a character has a problem with only a specific race/species/whatever... I would not call them anything except having an issue with only a specific race/species/whatever..

however...

if a character has a problem with every race/species/whatever besides his/her own... then he/she is an elitist. Problem solved.

MOD

edit: the only time that wouldnt work is if he/she has problems with other types of his/her own race.. such as everyone vs. Thayans (if the character was human, that is).

If you're not a "racist" you're basically saying orcs and humans should be treated the same way, even

though one of the two would happily have you for supper.

That being said, the other and more direct way racism can apply is where someone is judged based on their race alone, I.E a drow bumping into a group of elves.

I personally think it is a term that don't apply to most people in FR, and the few it does apply to aren't generally well liked and think them and their race is better than everyone else anyway, so why bother slapping them with the racist card when you can come up with more amusing and "original" labels like "Knife-ears". Then again that could be concidered racist.

Seriously.. don't we get enough of the whole "beware of racism!" thing in RL? Why do we have to drag it and the dirty term and loose useage to Amia? T_T Next thing you'll know sexism will get dragged out too, and then what will we do when we run out of tavern wenches?

Liz wrote:

The only objection I have to the word "racist" is that we've imbued it with such loaded connotations. You can't call someone a racist in RL without basically accusing them of being a skinhead swatstika-tattooed klansman.

Just for the record, "we" pretty much only represents America and their particular history of racial discrimination. Though they do have a fair influence with Western culture, non-Americans tend to find the term to be less loaded. Well, I can't speak for all of Europe, but then even in Australia we've had our history with it and the word is less loaded.

Also given that fantasy settings are magical places where sexism doesn't exist (well not to the same extent - just run with me on this one), the varying interpretations of racial discrimination are kind of understandable. Plus, fantastic racism works differently from real life racism - if your character is racist against goblins, one doesn't necessarily associate that with the real-world racism of viciously hating subsets of your fellow man for no good reason.

This thread is why I love this game. Thanks everyone.

Quote:

Just for the record, "we" pretty much only represents America and their particular history of racial discrimination. Though they do have a fair influence with Western culture, non-Americans tend to find the term to be less loaded. Well, I can't speak for all of Europe, but then even in Australia we've had our history with it and the word is less loaded.

Mmmm. Stereotypes. Cause no one ever made a valid point without bringing up some stereotypes. LOL

serbiris wrote:

.Also given that fantasy settings are magical places where sexism doesn't exist (well not to the same extent - just run with me on this one) ...

In the interest of not derailing the thread, I'll simply say no, I am not able to just run with you on this one.

Well not to dwell on it too much I think the problem in this instants that came up today with me was that the player in question maybe has a preconceived notion on how one should RP an orc/ half orc type. He inferred that Dirgesh was speaking with an orcish accent even though I never said he was so therefore he may have been taken aback by the simple fact that one would dare call a human a racist. I myself do not consider anyone else on planet earth of a differing race but a differing ethnicity. Racist really to me is just the term that stuck so it is used. I do think elitist would also be a good term as well maybe even xenophobe.

yeah, it is a bit disappointing when you are questioned for putting some 'flavor' into a toon that some might expect to behave a certain way. however, if this is done IC that is totally fine as that toon might naturally expect a half orc to behave like the norm! but as a player, unless it is something drastically unrealm worthy, is this all really necessary?

Ive been lucky so far to only have my toon's accent questioned IC... if someone said something OOC I would probably be a bit miffed about it too. But anyhow... I think the issue was solved for the most part and if the OOC happenings continue, we all know what to do

Good job on this one guys.

And yea Im aware I probably misspelled a heap load of things and used wonky punctuation if at all. Its 2am, i worked all day/night and am going to bed. good night and good riddance

MOD (*grouphugs*

I really don't know what this is about. Yes, my barbarian don't like most of other "races".
And now, we have a problem. What is race? You simply CAN'T say racist in FR, because he do not mind human sub-races.
"Mulans, Halruaans, Durparis, etc" are races, same as White, Black, Asians are races in real life.

Is elf racist because he do not like dwarves? And on the other hand, is dwarf racist because he hates orcs?
No, they are not!
But when human do not like some of them, he is racist? Isn't this quite stupid?

I play Amia (or NWN in general), because I am tired of RL happening. But what can I think about some half-orc-looking character who starts to insulting my barbarian that he is racist? I hate this stupid word, because someone came with awesome idea: "Hey, let's use this word racist, to protect other races all around the world, so black people will have same rights as white peoples." And this idea can't simply be used is fantasy world, because hatred between races (I rather use species), is set.

Elves vs. Drows/dwarves/duergars
Dwarves vs.elves/duergars/drows
Orcs/goblins/kobolds vs. everyone

Show me book, where someone used this word? Drizzt when he was insulting by EVERYONE for being a drow? No.
Leesil calling this word to those, who were calling him half-breed? No.
Teclis when Gotrek was yelling all around the forest how elves are stupid and bad? No.

And as a classic human, what the hell would you think when you will go through halfling dale, and you will see two half-orcs, three kobolds, one or two tieflings, as they are laughing, talking with each other as best friends and nearly playing games!?

Now, to that problem inprison666 had with "accent of his character". Skjorn never said that he is using "Accent" but "dialect" because he do not know that mystic word "racist". He thought that he is insulting him in some kind of orcish dialect (or language if you want).

I'm done here, this is everything I want to say to this topic. Have a nice day.

So.. I, uh. Think this topic was answered.

I'm just gonna put this here. *Locks*

The word racist

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