AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Last edited by Mushidoz on Sun, Nov 17 2013, 13:19 PM, edited 4 times in total.

I was not sure if such would need to be posted in the improving Amia section.. but discussing it might be for the best instead.

So, here is my view on this. In terms of strength, this is how weapons are supposed to be graded on Amia (1 being the strongest)

1 ) Epic insane random event plot weapon given by a dm

2 ) Fully mythaled epic loot

3 ) Fully mythaled weapon bought in the abyss

--

What is found in epic weapons come are either (I think) "Warforged" or "Sureforged" or "Trueforged"

Warforged:
Keen (perfect mythal)
2d8 bonus dmg (unmythalable)
up to 2d10 massive crit (unmythalable)

Sureforged:
5 AB (Flawless mythal)
2d6 dmg (unmythalable)

Trueforged:
2d6 dmg (unmythalable)
Keen (perfect mythal)

What draws my attention in this is how different these weapons are, but more importantly how easier the warforged is to "max out". Now, I understand that warforged are usually two handed weapons, and the staff wants them to be stronger. HOWEVER, unless I'm mistaking, not all warforged are 2 handed weapons (warhammers / scimitars / bastard sword have the warforged variant I believe). So, some of these one-handed weapons (good weapon types too) are stronger than other one handed weapons for .. I don't know what reason

The reason these weapons variant end up stronger (in my opinion) is because of the two "unmythalable" bonus on the weapon. However, they also happen to have keen on them. Why? The two other epic weapon variants have one unmythalable power + one flawless or perfect power. Why is it that they get a free perfect mythal power on top of 2 unmythalable powers (which are there to give a boost to 2handed weapons, and that is fine)?

Wouldn't it fair if all three weapon types had at least three powers on them? I am not saying all three weapons should have the same strength, but shouldn't they at least require the same amount of effort to max out? Also important to note that the trueforged / sureforged weapons usually are weapons that are used in two wielding, so that means they not only have to find / buy two of them, but they also have to buy / find epic mythals to max TWO weapons instead of one.

Personally, I find that there is very little benefits to max out trueforged/sureforged weapons when you can mythal a weapon you buy from the shop and it will have almost the same strength in the end. They will be stronger when fully maxed, but by a very small margin. Moreover, since you get physical damage from the weapon, very often your elemental damage weapon bought from a shop will be stronger than the one you found in an epic loot and worked your ass off to max out.

Edit: Double-axe / double-swords also get some really impressive benefits. These are dual wielding weapons camoufflaged into a 2 handed weapon. They get benefits of both without the actual penalties of both

What are your thoughts on this?

Mushidoz wrote:

HOWEVER, unless I'm mistaking, not all warforged are 2 handed weapons (warhammers / scimitars / bastard sword have the warforged variant I believe).

You are mistaken. Warforged weapons are only two handed variety. Which basically answers all your questions.

And, because I have seen a few of such threads, I will say in advance that bringing up the monkey grip subject will not end well.

Also keen is given by perfect not by flawless. Also Warforged weapons are already keen. So are Trueforged.

1 handed have a Trueforged and a sureforforged variety. The first ist keen and 1d10 damage the later +5 attack and 1d10 damage. Twohanded are always Warforged

And they are fine as they are.

@Helmite: It doesn't answer my questions no, you haven't read my post.

As to monkey grip.. I didn't bring it to the subject, nor did I want to (nor do I even care about it ^^)

I answered. They are fine.

They are not supposed to be a hundert times better than what you can get without epic farming.

These threads, every single one of them (search them up if you want) ended up with "imba" monkey grip. It was just a sarcastic remark.

And yes, I did read your whole post.

And ninjad by the cat lady. Oh, well...

Mushidoz wrote:

Moreover, since you get physical damage from the weapon, very often your elemental damage weapon bought from a shop will be stronger than the one you found in an epic loot and worked your ass off to max out.

Uhh... no? Elemental damage can be negated by elemental protections or the really nice Fire Giant King belt. Physical damage is far better because it's harder to negate that type. Only specific gear stops it (not counting actual DR from like Stoneskin), and hardly anything stops Bludgeoning damage, which is typically found on epic weapons.

Mushidoz wrote:

@Helmite: It doesn't answer my questions no, you haven't read my post.

As to monkey grip.. I didn't bring it to the subject, nor did I want to (nor do I even care about it ^^)

Amarice did.

Quote:

However, they also happen to have keen on them. Why? The two other epic weapon variants have one unmythalable power + one flawless or perfect power. Why is it that they get a free perfect mythal power on top of 2 unmythalable powers (which are there to give a boost to 2handed weapons, and that is fine)?

Wouldn't it fair if all three weapon types had at least three powers on them? I am not saying all three weapons should have the same strength, but shouldn't they at least require the same amount of effort to max out? Also important to note that the trueforged / sureforged weapons usually are weapons that are used in two wielding, so that means they not only have to find / buy two of them, but they also have to buy / find epic mythals to max TWO weapons instead of one.

That part was not answered (that's pretty much the core of the post). Answering "they are better because they are better and it's fine" is not exactly an answer :p

Kinda self explaining. They are a bit stronger because you miss out on a Ton of mythal slots unless you go Monkey grip (which in return means those powers get lessered again by 2 penalties of your Choice) and requirees RP and DC to even get

I'll rephrase it and try to make it more obvious..

The two unmythallable aspect of the warforged (higher dmg bonus than others, higher massive crit than anything that can ever be achieved through mythalling) is what makes the two handed warforged have an advantage in strength over the two. -----> and that is FINE <-----

What I do not get, is why these weapons also come with a free perfect mythal bonus. It can be mythalled on other weapons, it isn't unnachievable, it isn't making their potential stronger, it just makes it easier to max out. Basically, less effort to max out by the players of two handed weapon wielders than those who will have trueforged / sureforged (and perhaps 2 weapons to max out instead of one). Why? I don't see it as necessary, and it's a bit unfair to those with the true/sure. (it isn't the apocalypse, it isn't gamebreaking, it isn't whining, but it sure deserves a discussion)

Having 5 mythal slot instead of 4 (it isn't 8 when both your weapons need the same 4 slots.. shields however fuck everything up, I agree) is not a reason for the weapon being easier to max out.

AGAIN, I repeat, it ---isn't the strength--- part that tickles me, it's the fact the warforged will be easier to max out / gets one more bonus they don't have to put effort into mythalling, for no valid reason that I can think of. The weapon is stronger - FINE, but why does it need the free perfect mythal on top of the two amazing bonuses they get to reflect that strength? That to me is what makes little sense.

they come with a free keen bonus which EVERY character can get the perfect from a quest for there own weapon eventually.. and one extra mythaling slot, seems like an unfair trade for a possible +7-8 ac from a shield and 3-4 extra mythaling slots the shield will yeild..

if your trying to say twohanders are overpowered, by all means please play one and then come back to us.

You're not making any sense. On one hand you say the strength of warforged weapons is fine but ... then you ask why they have Keen. That conflicts your assertion that their strength is fine, because taking Keen off would make them 'harder to max out' but also greatly lower their strength.

It really doesn't need a discussion because it's a really odd question to ask that doesn't really need to be explained. I mean, you say it's easier to max out but ... they still have two free slots, just like True/Sureforged weapons (Warforged have 5 slots because they are large weapons and have three powers so they have 2 free, the other two have 4 slots with 2 powers so there's 2 left). I just don't see what the confusion/issue/whatever is.

I make a lot of sense, and I have no idea why you don't get what is written.

Potential strength of a maxed out warforged vs potential strength of a maxed out sure/trueforged weapon ---> the maxed out warforged will be stronger, because the unmythallable bonuses have a higher number (dmg and crit are higher than the smaller weapons) -and that is fine-.

BUT, they also get a free perfect mythal bonus despite already have 2 bonuses that makes the end potential of that weapon stronger. The free keen is there for no other reason than make that weapon easier to max out. And that is what I don't get. Why make the weapon easier to max out? Taking the keen out would lower their initial strength (yes), but the potential strength of the weapons once maxed out would be identical (because you'd likely get a perfect mythal to get keen on that weapon).

You bring the point that they also have 2 slots to fill out, and so they are "as hard" to max out than other weapons. If you include the 5th slot that regular weapons don't have, then you need to compare apples with apples. That 5th slot to max out your weapon is a response to dual wielders (8 slots) and shield wielders (8 as well?), so you have 2 slots to max out instead of 4. If keen was removed, it'd be 3 slots to max out the weapon instead of 4, without having to find a second weapon / shield, aka, a lot less effort still.

PS: I'm not for removing the keen bonus off the trueforged weapons, but I think if these weapons get a free 3rd bonus, then the other weapons should also get something. It doesn't have to be the same three things, and it shouldn't give the same strength potential than the warforged, but I think there should be something.

PS2: I have a character wielding a two-handed weapon, and in no way do I consider him to be weaker than people I team up with.. Bonewall's actually pretty powerful, and he's not well geared. Even worse considering that I'm not taking devastating crit and he's still that brutal. So while I won't say two handers are broken, I'll at least say they aren't weak or penalized in any fashion either.

Mushidoz wrote:

So while I won't say two handers are broken, I'll at least say they aren't weak or penalized in any fashion either.

I am more and more confused with any further post.

Mushidoz wrote:

I make a lot of sense, and I have no idea why you don't get what is written.

Sense is in the eye of the beholder. Or something.

Mushidoz wrote:

Potential strength of a maxed out warforged vs potential strength of a maxed out sure/trueforged weapon ---> the maxed out warforged will be stronger, because the unmythallable bonuses have a higher number (dmg and crit are higher than the smaller weapons) -and that is fine-.

Warforged and Trueforged both get a free perfect mythal bonus (Keen). Sureforged gets a free flawless mythal bonus (+5 AB). If you take those out of the equation you have the following:

Warforged, 5 slots, 2 powers (dmg and massive crit), 3 free
Trueforged, 4 slots, 1 power (dmg), 3 free
Sureforged, 4 slots, 1 power (dmg), 3 free

But wait! There's more! Warforged, Trueforged, and Sureforged all get a damage bonus far greater than what you can normally mythal! So the only difference, really, is the massive critical bonus.

So, again, they are in the same boat once more. Take the Keen from Warforged and it's inherently weaker, which I already stated (hell take the perfect/flawless enchantments and the damage bonuses and all you have is the massive crit, which occupies the extra slot large weapons get). Hell if you take Keen from Warforged I would argue that you should take it from the Trueforged as well (since Warforged are supposed to be better and not having Keen makes no sense). Not to mention the fact that large weapons will always be stronger because they have an extra mythal slot. Take a mundane greatsword and a mundane longsword and mythal them up and honestly try to tell me the greatsword is not inherently stronger. I dare you. So the 'point' about 'a free power' (that Trueforged also get) is largely moot.

Personally I don't see why you have such a hard time grasping this.

Wait, what? Sureforged weapons are easier to max out, IMO. +5 AB requires epic loot: Flawless mythal. You can only get those by moar bosshunting. Perfect mythals can be acquired from a quest accessible to most PCs (and I hope this gets fixed soon). So you get Keen, +5 AB, +damage, and then you just pump whatever Greater mythal bonuses you want (either +4 enh or +crit probably), and greater mythals are easy to get. Maxing out warforged isn't nearly as easy, unless you have GMW - which not everyone gets access to (and leads to hilarious pants-down moments in PvP on melee casters, where they're fighting with suboptimal weapons because you attacked them while/before they buffed).

Masscrit and bonus damage appears to be based on weapon size for the most part, though generally 2-handers have gotten more.

serbiris wrote:

which not everyone gets access to (and leads to hilarious pants-down moments in PvP on melee casters, where they're fighting with suboptimal weapons because you attacked them while/before they buffed).

Silly, that's why you walk around with your weapon buffed and sheathed

(or use Time Stop/Haven)

That's why you time your assassin strikes for when they sit down to rest

Precisely

Just taking a peek in here, really, but my opinion is that these war/sureforged weapons aren't epic at all. They're mundane and boring. They just happen to be the most rare, and the ones with the strongest damage bonuses.

When i think epic, i think unique artifacts. Alike Diablo unique items, which sometimes grant you amazing abilities, and it is such items that Amia sincerely lacks in the "epic" tier.

It is not difficult to create a line of weapons that would truly deserve to be called epic, not because they would be more powerful, but because a character obtaining such a weapon would feel special when wielding something that has a story and soul, and grants the wielder with some unique advantage.

Aeqvinox wrote:

It is not difficult to create a line of weapons that would truly deserve to be called epic, not because they would be more powerful, but because a character obtaining such a weapon would feel special when wielding something that has a story and soul, and grants the wielder with some unique advantage.

That's kinda what DC requests are for.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Aeqvinox wrote:

It is not difficult to create a line of weapons that would truly deserve to be called epic, not because they would be more powerful, but because a character obtaining such a weapon would feel special when wielding something that has a story and soul, and grants the wielder with some unique advantage.

That's kinda what DC requests are for.

Yeah, it's possible to get better (both stat and story-wide) items via DCs over anywhere else. In other games i've played, where it's possible to get "epic" items by doing an automated quest or by killing off some big baddy, the epic rapidly becomes the mundane, as everyone has one.

Last edited by Aeqvinox on Thu, Oct 17 2013, 20:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.

That's what DC requests can do, indeed, and they'll do it even better. That's not the point though. I specifically question the fact, that the highest tier rewards that the module gives us, are mundane.

EDIT: Gers, that's a fair point about distribution diminishing uniqueness, but still keep in mind that not everyone has an Improved Evasion ring or a Tome of Mystra.

Aeqvinox wrote:

the highest tier rewards that the module gives us, are mundane.

Explain.

Last edited by Aeqvinox on Thu, Oct 17 2013, 20:48 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Naivatkal, i'm beginning to suspect i speak some alien language, or that the concepts i try to touch on are alien to you.

It's self explanatory, that if the highest tier reward is an item without a description, with only one property being superior to all other available items, it's not really epic. It just drops from bosses. If Maskarran Regalia or Duelist's Parrying Dagger dropped from bosses, they would be far more suitable to be called epic, not because they are powerful, but because they have unique properties.

EDIT: To elaborate even further, as someone who is rather keen on tailoring item sets with the utmost meticulousness, so that they give my character exactly the kind of bonuses he requires, i have been set on this path because the loot system we have doesn't reward any other approach. It's all about getting the ability cap, the saving throws, primary skills, and there's hardly any items in the mod worth to be left untouched by the MCS and included in such a set, that would be compatible with a general item set theme for certain classes and still have some unique properties. The only example i can really think of, off the top of my head, is Maskarran Regalia for rogues, that has the Rogue's Cunning spell. Epic gear mostly serves as damage, AC and ability boosters, the only exceptions being things like the rings, or Arcane Defiance armors.

I wouldn't mind random epic loot. Not that I ever acquire any. The yellow named random shop items for example are interesting and fun. Example, a sword with three random epic properties. You might get the damage of a Warforged, a +6 skill bonus, and -/10 Slashing DR.

Maybe a spot on the loot table could be "randomized epic weapon". Determining what random options are available is a task however. Assuming that's even possible.

^ That might work. I had a +4 ac, +2 dex, +6 hide amulet once. That was a piece of epic loot.

But that would still not be quite the same what i actually have grown to love about loot in games. Honestly, have you guys played Diablo 2? Unique and very rare items were truly special, they had on-hit properties, spells, and don't get me started on the runewords...

Yellow random stuff has the potential to be better than epic lewt actually. The problem is it never does.

The way I read the opening post is that the question being asked was why do the trueforge / sureforge items come with a power that can be added with MCS, rather than something that can not be added by MCS, or did I miss something?

Most epic weapons on Amia kind of aren't very good anyway. And I mirror Amarice's statement. You can get better epic gear through active participation in rp. I know I have. This is not playing favorites either. It's just a reward for completing a plot most times.

Quote:

Warforged Heavy Flail: Pierce damage 2d8, Keen, Massive Crit 2d6
Warforged Scythe, 2d6 Bludgeon, Keen, 3d6 Massive Critical
Warforged Quarterstaff (keen, 2D8 piercing, 2D10 massive crits
Warforged Double Axe (2d6 piercing, Massive Criticals 3d6, Keen)
Warforged Greatsword //2D6 Piercing, Keen, 2D6 Massive Criticals
Warforged Double Axe //+2d6 piercing damage, keen, +3d6 massive criticals,
Warforged Diremace //2d8 Piercing, Keen, 2d10 Massive Critical
Warforged spear (Keen, 2D6 bludgeoning, 3D6 massive criticals)

Got a question about the warforged! How come their enchantments differ so much? I picked the above examples out of a search on 'Warforged' i did in the auction form.
The blunt warforged seems to have 2d8 extra damage instead of 2d6?

The Massive critical bonus also differ rather much? Why?
I am not really interested in debate - More of how the Team reasoned.

From what I remember when I redid the bins:

2d10 massive criticals was reserved for weapons with 20/20 x2 critical ratings
2d6 massive criticals was reserved for weapons with 19/20 x2 critical ratings
3d6 massive criticals was reserved for weapons with 20/20 x3/x4 critical ratings

The reason blunt weapons have 2d8 damage is a more involved story involving a Heavy Flail with 2d8 sonic that begat the Wonderforged Heavy Flail with 2d8 physical damage and in keeping with the theme, and to avoid grandfathering or complaints around item removals via script and save on DM time tracking down every single transaction involving them, gave the Warforged Heavy Flail with 2d8 physical and in keeping the theme of bludgeoning alive gave us the 2d8 additional damage on other blunt two-hander weapons.

Yeah, there was an old Heavy Flail called Twice Over that had 2d8 sonic damage on it. We just kept it the same to avoid having a bunch of old heavy flails floating around out there that were better than anything else that existed. Plus we reasoned that Dire Maces and Quarterstaves sucked ass so who cares if they have 2d8 vs 2d6.

TormakSaber wrote:

Yeah, there was an old Heavy Flail called Twice Over that had 2d8 sonic damage on it. We just kept it the same to avoid having a bunch of old heavy flails floating around out there that were better than anything else that existed. Plus we reasoned that Dire Maces and Quarterstaves sucked ass so who cares if they have 2d8 vs 2d6.

From what i was told Twice over had 2d8 Sonic dmg since it has 2 les standard dmg compared to all the other 2h weapons

That doesn't make much sense, since only the Greatsword and Greataxe have a higher base damage. Otherwise the Heavy Flail is on a par with, or has a greater base damage than, all the other two-handers.

The other "good" two handers are the scythe and the halberd both of which have dual damage types which automatically make them far superior to the Heavy Flail (and arguably the Greataxe) due to how resistances/immunity works.

The spear is a simple weapon and the trident is modified to a one handed weapon, the double sword, double mace and double axe are dual-sided weapons rather than two-handed weapons but they get the damage bonus for being two-handed because you permanently forgo a shield to specialize in them.

In all honesty from the selection of two-handed weapons, dismissing double sided weapons, the heavy flail is only surpassed in pure crappiness by the Spear and Quaterstaff although with the Monk modifications Staves probably sit above the heavy flail in the hierarchy.

http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=143107

I felt this was relevant?

Any way to remove the dual weapon requirements for dual bladed weapons?

Well, they're not actually requirements, just optional extras for enhanced efficiency.

O'Raghailligh wrote:

Well, they're not actually requirements, just optional extras for enhanced efficiency.

They're optional extras for -any- efficiency at all. Double weapons can be so good, but NWN made them inferior in nearly every (probably every) situation.

What are you talking about with the double weapons being bad? They are superior to dual weapons in almost all situations (this is especially true here on Amia).

- You need the same 3 feats to make optimal use of them.
- You end up with 2 weapons that deal 1d8 each without the penalty of needing a lighter weapon in your off-hand
- You don't have to specialize in two different weapons (weapon masters, rejoice!)
- You don't have to find/buy two different weapons
- You don't have to forge two different weapons
- You don't have to buff two weapons
- You get all the benefits of two-handed weapons when it comes to mythal powers (Amia only)

The only downside compared to regular dual weapons is that you lose a bit of versatility when it comes to have a side-weapons with special attributes (like, say, a weapon with no real damage but stat / feat bonus)

The dual-mace sucks though..

Mushidoz wrote:

What are you talking about with the double weapons being bad? They are superior to dual weapons in almost all situations (this is especially true here on Amia).

- You need the same 3 feats to make optimal use of them.Correct
- You end up with 2 weapons that deal 1d8 each without the penalty of needing a lighter weapon in your off-hand Correct!
- You don't have to specialize in two different weapons (weapon masters, rejoice!) Wrong - You specialize in two light weapons instead. The character who has 2 different weapon focuses is not doing it right)
- You don't have to find/buy two different weapons Correct!
- You don't have to forge two different weapons Correct!
- You don't have to buff two weapons Correct!
- You get all the benefits of two-handed weapons when it comes to mythal powers (Amia only) Correct!

The only downside compared to regular dual weapons is that you lose a bit of versatility when it comes to have a side-weapons with special attributes (like, say, a weapon with no real damage but stat / feat bonus)

The dual-mace sucks though..

The most massive of penalties though is that you cannot switch to a shield if things go bad.

In almost every situation I've encountered, dual-wielding two weapons has been vastly superior than using one double-weapon, since it adds so much survivability to you without sacrificing efficiency when you can simply swap to a shield. Double-weapons are very cool, but they aren't really as powerful in most cases. They are easier to acquire and buff though, I'll give you that.

I'd wished, somehow, if NWN had certain feats for using single one handed weapons, without shield (like wielding single katana with two hands for example). Cause for now it's not even an option, and you'll have same bonuses for one-handed weapon if you'll gonna use shield with it, or you will not. Which is quite upsetting, since it'd been really nice and given more versatility for characters.

I'm one of these people that don't like to cheat in games, and purposedly don't pick / equip things that I consider overpowered. Shields are, to me, completely game breaking, so I don't use them. When it comes to dual wielding, swapping to a shield is -not- an option to me, because I want dualing to be dualing, not swapping to a broken shield when the situation gets too hard for me to handle with two weapons :p

My archers are archers, my dual wielders are dual wielders, my two-handers are two-handers. So while it is indeed a valid point, it isn't -for me-, and so when I look at 2sided weapons compared to dual weapons, the only options that are arguably better OR on par with double sided weapons is if you have too many feats as a fighter/ranger and have no idea what to pick (you can then go scimitar + kukri?), or if you are dualing kukris.

With that being said,

Quote:

Wrong - You specialize in two light weapons instead. The character who has 2 different weapon focuses is not doing it right)

I was bringing up the point that if you wanted 1d8+ on each weapons like the 2sided weapons give, that you needed non-light weapons.

I agree it's better to pick two light weapons, but then the most you get out of a light weapon (rapier excluded?) is 1d4 dmg. In comparison, you get 1d8 with the double axe / double sword. Two kukris is, however, -awesome-. With lots of feats (fighter), you can opt to pick 2 different weapons, and at lvl 13 of weapon master you could even decide to specialize in the two weapons (like, say, kukri / scimitar) and benefit from the two.

It all comes down to the build you have, but normally speaking, with less investment/less complicated build, if you are using dual weapons (not cheating with a shield when you are against a bigger challenge), the 2sided weapons are better.

Oh and I forgot to mention that you are more resistant (but also more vulnerable) to disarm.

You are incorrect. Double weapons suck.

A few key points:
Light weapons are, for the most part, finessable.
Weapon finesse allows you to use DEX for AB
Double weapons are not Light.
Double weapons must use STR for AB.
Ambidexterity has a 15 DEX requirement which is also a must have feat for double weapons.

Therefore, with double weapons you are ALWAYS building to two significant Ability Requirements, not one. Almost any subrace can build to DEX alone. Try building to both STR and DEX requirements while not tanking your CON and ending up with no HP or your INT and ending up with no skills and god forbid you wanted a class with a WIS or CHA component. THAT's the largest downside to double weapons.

Second point is that you've mentioned base weapon damage more than once. It's not that important in the grand scheme of things. Totally over-rated. I've built characters using the Whip, a small 1D2 weapon, who were quite effective at dealing damage because most of it is non base weapon damage.

If you want to say shields are broken and you never use them that's fine, it's your choice. Your personal preferences however do not change the effectiveness of the strategy or lend double weapons advantages.

They are inferior which is why nobody uses them despite the supposed benefits you are touting. I wish this were not the case by the way as I think they are the coolest weapons in the game. I wish I could build a character who uses them who's not as weak as wet tissue paper. Sadly, that's not going to happen for me or you or anyone else.

I would contest that it's not possible to make a double-weapon wielding build that isn't pretty good, since I've made one before. However, I do agree that it's infinitely better if you just use two light weapons instead, since every single one of your points is entirely correct Maglorine

Double-sided weapons require exotic weapon proficiency, so, technically it'd be four feats (assuming ITWF). Which can make a difference or not, depending on build.

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