Hello Amia!

My main character is currently a strongheart Fighter(5)/Rogue(1), and I intend to follow the fighter/rogue motif, but was wondering about a few things. I took rogue mostly because this character is a treasure hunter/warrior type, so I focus more on UMD, tumble, lockpicking, and traps, and not so much on move silently/hide. The biggest benefits I'm seeking from the rogue part of my build is UMD, AC from tumble, sneak attack, and the ability to get past locked doors and traps.

Can anyone suggest a good long-term build for me? I intend to take my next level in fighter so I finally have two attacks/round, but then I want to start building my rogue levels again. I'm just not sure what the final ratio of fighter to rogue should be.

Thanks in advance!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59938&start=6350

This thread will be your best friend for builds and build advice. Have fun!

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

I'm no "pro" builder, but... I can tell you a few things....

First, make sure you think in 4's for rogue levels prior to 20. In other words, take 4, but not 5 since you will miss out on an attack bonus at level 1, 5, 9, etc.

Also, you don't -need- astronomically high disable trap and lock skills, I won't give away numbers since that would be wrong, but, suffice to say there is lots of gear to help with that .

Another class to consider is Divine Champion. It give benefits similar to fighter, however also has some extra ways to do damage, and has saving throw bonuses. You will need to choose a deity and become a holy warrior of sorts however.

I've made several fighter/rogues that wear full plate and have the skills you describe, really fun way to play. Add in knockdown and you get to use all those sneaks by the way.

Welcome to Amia, and Have fun!

-B

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You'll want to aim for a 10 fighter, 13 rogue, 5 master scout dude or dudette halfling if you wish to get the most bang for your buck with your (ambiguously defined) build thus far whilst still remaining true to the nature of your character. It boasts ample feats, master scout's versatility and trap improvements, as well as the opportunity to pick up epic dodge if you're so inclined and possess the necessary dexterity.

Pre-Epic: 6 fighter, 10 rogue, 4 master scout

Given that you've already taken a fifth fighter level it is in your best interest to discriminately ignore Bidocks' advice regarding base-attack bonus progressions. Whilst you could opt to keep to multiples of four, you'd end up taking an exorbitant number of fighter levels pre-epic, thus compromising your reflex save and more importantly, the boon of bonus epic feats provided by fighter which are all two important on a ECL +2 race. While your BAB would be 1 point greater (17 versus 16) taking 8 fighter, 12 rogue pre-epic, the fighter classes power comes from providing versatility and flexibility in the form of an array of feats; these feats tend to go wasted if they're all clumped together pre-epic, it's why builds with greater than 12 levels of fighter are rare on a level 30 server. Given this and that the difference in BAB isn't at the point where it will influence your attacks per round, 6 fighter, 10 rogue, 4 master scout is an attractive pre-epic progression.

Epic: 4 fighter, 1 master scout, 3 rogue

If you opt for epic dodge, be sure to take your 13th level of rogue on your 27th character level. Other than that, the attractiveness in this particular setup is the padding of 2 epic fighter bonus feats, 1 epic master scout bonus feat, and 1 special rogue bonus feat/epic rogue bonus feat onto the scant 3 provided by your character levels. This will allow you to pick up a plethora of statistical feats, whether they be epic specialization, armor skin, epic prowess, epic skill focii, or even epic fortitude, the opportunity to 'dip in' is there.

Given the organic quality of your build in that you didn't go in with a definite progression, this build will offer you adaptability to whatever the character's ability scores may be; balance in that the build is well rounded across offensive, defensive, and utilitarian qualities given its decent BAB, decent saves, decent AC, and large (in both quantity and breadth) skill-pool; and finally it is something that's optimized enough that you likely will not have to rebuild the character at one point for the sake of bringing it up to par. As a last point of advice, trap detection and trap disarmament is an opposed role given that the DC is determined by the setter's own skill, rather than a flat value, so you do in fact want to invest a great deal in set trap, search, and disable trap. There's a reason rogues have 8 skill points per level and given that you are choosing to forgo hide and move silently, there's no way you will have to skimp.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

Well, I my concept for the character is more direct combat oriented. She is a fighter that has some rogue skills rather than a rogue with combat skills.

Bini's build is exactly that. It nets you some great rogue abilities, and all the nice things you needed from fighter levels. Master Scout adds to that by giving you better traps, permanent freedom, and some nice little tricks.

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Just lurking about!

Master Scout doesn't hold much appeal to me, though. My character has no interest in setting traps, merely being able to disable them. Also, I have to take two skill focus feats in order to get that class.

Is it still a viable class if I simply replace those Master Scout levels with Rogue or Fighter levels?

First of all, I don't think that there are any incredibly strong rogue AND warrior based builds. So - as your character will never be one of the strongest around - why not focus on what suits your RP needs. You will eventually like to RP a bit more, as you can't keep on hunting around forever (quite long though, as rogue pretty much sucks).
Also, if you ever considered picking knockdown as a feat and relying on it strongly, simple rogue + warrior seems nice. You will be able to deal a very decent damage thanks to sneak attack as long as you are successful on knocking down the opponent (which is likely, as I assume your character's strength is high). The way you keep balance between rogue and warrior levels is up to you, although I think you should choose warrior only as long as your extra feats will give you reasonable advantage in battle (10 levels, or so). Just make sure that you take at least 4 pre-epic fighter levels to reach four attacks per round.
Plus, your skills are neat.

From the other side, your will saving throw. Somewhat weak AC. And beasts resistant to sneak attack. You may never be able to hunt successfully in some areas.

Anyway. Rogues hunting solo suck. Mage company highly recommended.

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You don't want this. Take your Master Scout levels all post-20.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

Well, if your main target is to hit stuff, there are some options.
For damage output, str based fighter/weapon master/rogue. Usual cookie-cutter is 12/16/2 or 20/7/3 - for +2 ecl race it could go 12/13/3 or even 14/13/1, and 20/7/1 or 18/7/3 (10/10 or 13/7 preepic). Keep in mind Weapon master requires quite a bunch of feats so you'll probably have to do a rebuild to get those ASAP. It's definitely best solution for constant damage output that doesn't depend of sneaks, rages or divine cheats. It does suffer from mediocre AC (even with shield, it's around 50 with +4 gear and armor skin).
If you want better AC at the expense of some damage, dex route with 8 fighter/7 WM/13 rogue and going epic dodge is probably best solution (5/7/8 preepic should be possible). Go 20 dex (28 ending) - it's 19 AC (+4 from cloth and +15 from dex bonus if you maxed dex with gear) compared to +13 from fullplate (8+4 from plate and +1 max dex bonus) - so it's 7 more ac (or 6 if you don't want to have lower starting dex). This will also give you decent reflex save, uncanny dodge and lots of spare skill points (try to get starting int to 14, you'll need 13 for WM anyway, and it's 30 more skillpts).

@derk
Why is necessary to get all MS levels post epic - because of that one extra epic feat? If save progression for fort/ref save is the same as old HS ref/will save, it's quite nice save boost preepic (like getting Great Fortitude and Lightning reflexes), plus you get utility items that can help you early in level progression. Not everyone can depend on having caster around all the time.

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"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

Because your saves will be good anyway and the bonus feat is more valuable in epic levels, whereas in pre-epic levels, you get Fortitude, Reflexes, or Will. You have more options in epic, including the epic versions of those feats, plus Great Strength (which isn't available for any other class as a bonus feat).

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

Fighter/rogue saves are utter rubbish. I played Fighter/WM 10/10 preepic (WM has same saves as rogue) and his saves were disaster (mid-high teens without save gear, and that's both fortitude and reflex, I don't even count will save as anything serious). I had to invest +3 fort on any item I could weld it to - just to get fortitude to high 30s, and reflex ones barely passed 20s. I'd rather get +2 fort and +2 reflex preepic and another choice of +2 between the two then have to waste epic feat to get +4 to one.
As for Great Strength, if he has problem to get decent strength with Strongheart hin, something's very wrong with the build.

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"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry