AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I'm putting this here cause I feel like it goes here.

Can you get Monkeygrip on Scythe now? I understand Tormak was pretty adamant about not giving monkeygrip to Scythe WM's before.

I think it has to do with a one handed weapon at 2d6 with a 5x critical multipler is the problem

Even one handed, you can get criticals up to around 500 damage

2d4, not 2d6.

Also, does this mean my dream of having a dual-wielding scythe weaponmaster is never happening? Because you know... It'd totally be balanced...

Does wielding it with a shield actually give you the benefits that you would get if you wielded it with two hands? I say this because the point of going for any two handed weapon is pretty much damage, and I have personally no clue if it retains the strength modifier bonus or not.

Bini wrote:

...

This made me laugh and nod.

I'm told this has been done before. It works just the same as any other two-handed weapon.

Our Sticked Request Topic has all the stuff on Monkey Grip, for those interested (the mechanics of it, at least)

Caldera3 wrote:

Does wielding it with a shield actually give you the benefits that you would get if you wielded it with two hands? I say this because the point of going for any two handed weapon is pretty much damage, and I have personally no clue if it retains the strength modifier bonus or not.

They lose the 1.5x strength damage and get 1.0x strength damage. You get the benefit of having +8 AC and being able to use a 1 handed weapon that hits for 200 damage.

The_Last_Helmite wrote:

I'd actually be open to seeing a one-handed scythe wielder if it was done in a believable fashion and not just for the mechanical benefits (i.e. not on a build obviously designed to abuse it).

Abuse? Either its allowed or not.

The problem I see with scythes is that they are made to be used with two hands. Like, it's a design flaw. A two handed sword can be held with one hand, you just need to be strong enough and it will be clumsy as all get out. It's like of like with a qstaff, that'd be hard as hell to dual-wield.

It'd be rather awkward but there is enough practice in other weapons of a roughly similar configuration I could see it done. I don't advocate for it to be done lightly and anyone who's wanting it for a Scythe is going ot have an uphill battle to prove they are able to think about the RP and process in a way that shows they're putting significant RP effort in.. but still it can be done.

I still think one-handed spears are badass.

I imagine monkeygripping a scythe would work a lot like a kama. They're basically just bigger versions of the same. You wouldn't wield it by the middle, you'd grab them by the end; just like if you were to monkeygrip a greatsword, your hand position doesn't stay in the same place on the handle.

In any case, it's a fantasy game. If people can shoot lightning out of their left nostril and balsamic vinegar out of the right, then someone with cartoonish strength could figure out a way to wield essentially a huge-kama, one handed.

Edit: Don't know why I was talking about dual-wielding. I'm sleepy.

Uh... You don't know how scythes work, do you?

You grab it offset of the middle, and grab a portion that's sticking out of the shaft, and swing it slowly from side to side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzdjOkLQw1s

Not very similar to a kama, which is simply a short tree-branch with a curved piece of metal at the end. A scythe is much larger, much more unwieldy than any sword, much heavier than a kama, and designed and trained to be used very differently, as a farm implement. Honestly, they should've given penalties to attacking with a scythe, because of how it's used.

Either way, mechanically speaking, wielding a scythe in one hand would be pretty OP in most scenarios. You'd lose 30 damage per crit at a +12 - +13 STR mod (assuming you're a weapon master, and you'd need to pretty much max out your STR to get that STR mod), but gain either another weapon in your offhand or +8 AC from a tower shield, and oodles of enchantments regardless whether you use a second weapon or a shield, meaning much more power.

But lastly, you are right in that we're in a world where people can outmuscle dragons with enough magic items; however in the interest of less ridiculousness than is already in a world like Amia, and the interest of balance, I don't think scythe one-handed wielding should be allowed. A greatsword, for a counterexample, is slightly less powerful, and also makes more sense since larger or more experienced/strong individuals can wield larger swords than some others can, and is in fact -designed- to be a balanced and useable weapon.

If you have a look through the RP people have done in previous Monkey Grip requests, there is a fair bit of information about the way they change their weapons to make them more suitable. Arguing that a scythe cannot be used because it's difficult, etc, can't really be done when someone is aiming to train themselves to use it that way. They'd also change the weapon and it's balancing, maybe shift the grips so that it could be done.

I thought up a design for a scythe which can be used in one hand, in real life. There is a long curve in the shaft which you brace against your body, and guide it using your left/right hand depending on what you're more comfortable with. It doesn't require dragon strength for this design. So having dragon strength would make it even more feasible.

Considering the character I have this planned for has 42 strength in the end, I'd think it was believable.

The idea of using a scythe as a combat weapon *at all* is fairly preposterous. The line between plausible scythe-wielding and implausible scythe-wielding? Check the rear-view mirror. We crossed it eleven years ago. As long as we're allowing people to do silly things with scythes anyway, letting them swing one in one hand is only marginally dumber. I say go for it.

Because of how the weapon is used the only way to use it 1 handed to me at least would be to be big/tall enough to wield it like a kama.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Because of how the weapon is used the only way to use it 1 handed to me at least would be to be big/tall enough to wield it like a kama.

The same way that usually to use a greatsword one handed, you have to be big/tall enough to wield it like a longsword. People forget that RL greatswords(zweihanders) could be anywhere between 5-6ft, yet people rarely hassle over the logistics of one-handing a blade as tall as you, or taller, if you read some of the item descriptions.

Monkeygrip allows people to wield things as if they were giants, through strength and weapon modification. Greatswords become longswords, greataxes become battleaxes, and scythes become kamas. No mattle how the weapons function IRL, in the gameworld the case for allowing it is already made by default.

I'm so glad Tormak is gone so I can say this, because I'd have never given him the pleasure otherwise.
I agree with him, well the end conclusion anyway. I wouldn't like to see one handed scythe use. The way the scythes are done in the game, it's not a weapon, it's a farmer tool. It looks silly enough as it is. Imagine it being done with one hand, especially with normal or small characters. It would look like a constand wandering graphical bug.

A true war scythe has the blade placed in paralel with the staff so it's basicly a spear, or halfted blade. And we already got one and two handed spears.

That's my two cents. I thrust it will be faithfully ignored *grins*

The "its a farming tool" argument is overplayed and rather stupid anyway. Tridents are "fishing tools" That doesn't mean that a variant can't be made simply enough that has effective use in battle. As for a scythe it would be simple enough to constuct one that is effectively a battle-staff with the addition of a blade on the end for the added utility of armour piercing and slashing.

And considering that they are being designed as weapons in the game I would find it very odd if they weren't generally optimized like that. And I wouldn't see a problem with a staff being being monkey-gripped so I wouldn't see the issue with an optimized scythe design being one handed either.

If you take a scythe, and remove the second grip, and change the angle of the blade, then it's no longer a scythe, is it?
What modifications can you make to a trident, to make it useable in one hand?
Both are ridiculous tools for melee combat.
And I don't care how strong you are, using any long hafted weapon with a shield is only good for a phalanx shield wall, not for hand to hand melee combat.

Its not like the changes would have logically happened all at once but rather optimization of weapons is a slow thing but the whole "is it the same thing" is a difficult argument and one that isn't really relevant. Especially since the purpose was to change it, however if it is still recognizable as something related to the original tool then yes it is reasonable to call it by the same name.

Also tridents are in reality already usable in one hand, I draw your attention to the Retiarius as evidence of such.

Also using a long hafted weapon and shield has a number of uses especially since a shield makes a damned good weapon it of itself, a shield can he used for bashing and short ranged attacks while the longer weapon takes advantage to trip and hit enemies from a distance or follow up a shield smash to the face with a pointy chunk of metal comming for them as they stumble backwards.

Also it is a fantasy game and whether or not it is ideal in real world is less an issue than if it would be cool and not be too unbelievable in game.

Edit: also saying they are ridiculous for combat is a oversimplified claim to make since even if a weapon wasn't ideal if its unconventional then you have a great advantage of you opponent likely having no idea how you will use it. And surprise is one of the best weapons to bring to any fight.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Also it is a fantasy game and whether or not it is ideal in real world is less an issue than if it would be cool and not be too unbelievable in game.

I think it might be 'possible' to use one handed, if one changed the way they used it... BUT it would lose the leverage capacity that gives it the additional crit modifier. And since I don't think that is possible, it would be unbalanced.

Dark Immolation wrote:

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Also it is a fantasy game and whether or not it is ideal in real world is less an issue than if it would be cool and not be too unbelievable in game.

Just throwing in my $0.02.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

The "its a farming tool" argument is overplayed and rather stupid anyway. Tridents are "fishing tools".

I would like to say that you are absolutely wrong in this area.

Trident is a weapon since the ancient Greek / Sparta. Saying Trident is a fishing tool is the same like saying that axe is or hammer is just a "tool".

No, any "tool" is a potentional weapon, so please, in general, cut this nonsense. Because it is not the point. The point is that it is easy to imagine someone brutally massive wielding two hander in one hand, swinging it like a bastard sword (not longsword). It is possible to imagine someone waving a greataxe in one hand, given he is inhumanly strong, and swinging it like a massive battleaxe.

The way the scythe works demands both hands for use. As simple as that. Comparing scythe to kama / sickle is yet again wrong.

Even in the standard Nwn description it is said that the scythe in question is a STANDARD, FARMER scythe only hardened to withstand a war or combat. So please stop using the expression about war scythes. And yes, they are indeed existing, but the design is completely different, as someone already mentioned.

Maybe it is just my lack of imagination, but scythe is a weapon I cannot imagine being used with a shield (and, to add a little bit more cheez (<3 Bini), I bet you'll have a tower shield on your left forearm.)

Quite frankly, the idea of scythe in one hand is so bizzare (not original in this case, I see it only as an attempt to build a build. I do not mean it as an offense, it is a fact I think everyone see) that I, as long as I can remember, recall it being used only in the realm of Warhammer, where Chosens of Chaos were able to wave a scythe whilst on horse, with a shield on their off hand. But then again, I find the realm of Warhammer bizzare (not bad, I in fact am a fan), so I can skip over that. But I am having serious difficulties seeing this in FR settings.

I am often keeping my distance from discussions such as these, but I find it irresistibly irritating. So yes, here goes my two cents, un/wanted as they may be.

Like many people have said, it's a fantasy game. Wielding something like a scythe one-handed, sure it'd be hard as hell, but let's take a look at those strength scores. For example, on DnD charts, someone with 38 STR (which many WMs have, if not more), you'd be able to lift 4800 lbs. over your head. That's equal to a Cadillac CTS V. That same WM would have the strength to pick 2 of those cars off the ground and drag 5 said cars behind him with the parking brake on.
The characters in Amia, who are STR based, are ridiculously powerful if you put it into DnD scales. Wielding a scythe one-handed with that kind of strength wouldn't be impossible.

Also, about the farming tool comment; Here, have a War Scythe:

You are missing the point. It is not about strength. It is about the fact that scythe is not designed for one hand. Not at all. And yes, you CAN re-design scythe to have a war scythe, which COULD be, in the wild wild dreams be used in one hand, but then I would very much quote what was already said and perfectly fits :

Kudark wrote:

If you take a scythe, and remove the second grip, and change the angle of the blade, then it's no longer a scythe, is it?

With your logic someone with 38 str could lift a cow and beat people around with it. Dual-wield!! The question is why nobody is doing it. Personally I think it is because of cow critical multiplier kind of sucks. :wink:

Sure scythes aren't designed for one hand. ...Neither are zweihanders, funny enough, but no one seems to focus much on the patent absurdity of monkey grip in general. No, if you can wield ridiculously large swords, axes and polearms one-handed, scythe is fine too. It's just a stick with a thing on the end.

3.5 has rules for improvised weapons by weight so yes, you could wield a cow! But there's a nonproficiency penalty, damage sucks and crit is flat x2!

The_Last_Helmite wrote:

With your logic someone with 38 str could lift a cow and beat people around with it. Dual-wield!! The question is why nobody is doing it. Personally I think it is because of cow critical multiplier kind of sucks. :wink:

They're too heavy to dual-wield, the penalty is too big

Monkey-gripping a scythe is possible on Amia, our little fantasy world with an existing list of endless implausibilities. Good luck trying to convince the DM team on just how your character would do this, though. In my opinion, you could somehow bizarrely wield the scythe with both your hands while simultaneously having a custom (A multi-section!?) shield strapped to your left arm. It's fiction, go figure.

Sphinx wrote:

In my opinion, you could somehow bizarrely wield the scythe with both your hands while simultaneously having a custom (A multi-section!?) shield strapped to your left arm. It's fiction, go figure.

I actually really like this train of thought. I realise Monkey-Grip is supposed to let you wield these things in one hand, but to take the approach of having a different shield, rather than a different weapon style, is pretty cool. I can see this working well on many of the weapons; especially the greatsword, to be used with a buckler!

Sphinx wrote:

Monkey-gripping a scythe is possible on Amia, our little fantasy world with an existing list of endless implausibilities. Good luck trying to convince the DM team on just how your character would do this, though. In my opinion, you could somehow bizarrely wield the scythe with both your hands while simultaneously having a custom (A multi-section!?) shield strapped to your left arm. It's fiction, go figure.

Hrhm... actually, this idea is pretty much valid.

I can imagine the scythe in both hands whilst having a buckler strapped on one, yes. Well done, sir.

serbiris wrote:

Sure scythes aren't designed for one hand. ...Neither are zweihanders!

Explain to me how could one operate a scythe in one hand, no matter the modifier of strength. Convince me. Sell it to me.

I will, in exchange, explain to you why I believe it is possible to operate a "zweihander" in one hand. You surely know what bastard sword is. Now, bastard sword is usable with shield or with both hands (due to prolonged hilt which allows both hand grasp).

So, basically, when you are strong enough (see, here the strength modificator is vital) to wave your zweihander the same way an ordinary soldier would wave a bastard sword, where do you see the issue? In case of greataxe, greatsword and, for example, heavy flail, I see no issue with monkey grip, because the fighting style is very much appliable and these weapons are similiar to weapons normally used one-handed.

Greatsword = Bastard sword
Greataxe = Battleaxe
Heavy Flail = Flail

Now I would really very much love to see a man with scythe in one hand and a tower shield strapped on the other. Am I really the only one who cannot imagine such?

I am a little confused reading this thread.

The OP asked if monkey gripping a scythe was allowed if I understand properly and most post are about if monkey gripping a scythe should be allowed or if it would be physically possible.

The dicussion is interesting but in the end it will have to be a DM that gives the final answer and I think it will be a case by case answer after reading the request information Rigela linked. Since Penguin posted a request I suspect that answer will come there sooner or later and this discussion probably wont affect that answer terribly much.

serbiris wrote:

....no one seems to focus much on the patent absurdity of monkey grip in general.

Interesting comment, every single one of my PnP DM's have forbidden use of this feat, including myself.

sYuzan wrote:

Like many people have said, it's a fantasy game.

But it's not Final Fantasy :P

Yeah much of the conversation has drifted towards practical use of weaponry which is a bit off-topic but there's not much else to this topic anyway aside from DMs saying "No, really, everything you need to know is in the MG thread, if it doesn't say no scythes there, scythes are fine."

Quote:

Now, bastard sword is usable with shield or with both hands (due to prolonged hilt which allows both hand grasp).

Nope. This is a purely D&D invention with no basis in historical fact. The term "bastard sword" is from what I have been able to find, applied to large longswords of irregular design/sizing, but there is no indication of them being used with shields. Using full-sized shields did not even leave you with half a hand to guide your blade. There were definitely "hand-and-a-half" styles but I haven't found any of them which include any shields larger than a buckler.

The problem isn't just strength vs weight, it's balance and space. No matter how weirdly you grip your giant sword, no matter how you modify its weight and grip, lock your gauntlets or train, it's physically impossible and purely a fantasy element.

I don't know how to "prove" that scythes are only equally impossible if you don't accept that it is just a stick with a thing on the end. Because that is genuinely all that it is. There is nothing in its design which necessitates it being swung in a certain way which would prohibit the use of a shield. It would really just be swung the same way that a greataxe would, I don't see how it couldn't be used this way?

Don't get me started on how much of an oversimplification it is to say that heavy flails would just be wielded equivalent to flails, since we're already far beyond what is physically possible anyway.

All right. There is really no point in this. Let's say some can imagine it, some just cannot.

Just last one thing :

serbiris wrote:

Nope. This is a purely D&D invention with no basis in historical fact. The term "bastard sword" is from what I have been able to find, applied to large longswords of irregular design/sizing, but there is no indication of them being used with shields. Using full-sized shields did not even leave you with half a hand to guide your blade. There were definitely "hand-and-a-half" styles but I haven't found any of them which include any shields larger than a buckler.

Wiki quote:

The French épée bâtarde as well as the English bastard sword originates in the 15th or 16th century originally in the general sense of "irregular sword, sword of uncertain origin", but by the mid-16th century could refer to exceptionally large swords.

So a bastard sword is not a DnD invention. Indeed a "type" of longsword, but longsword is a term for any sword in certain length. Bastard sword differs not only in length of the blade itself, but hilt as well, which allows it being used even with shield, even two handed. I never said you could use it (real life now) with a massive tower shield, but I DO know you can use it with, as you said, a buckler and even with a targe if your physique allows it.

I don't know how you could have taken my post as saying bastard swords didn't exist when I said,

Quote:

The term "bastard sword" is from what I have been able to find, applied to large longswords of irregular design/sizing, but there is no indication of them being used with shields.

Targes are just small shields, which even large shields in D&D are much, much, much larger than. So no, bastard swords cannot be used with shields - that's a D&D invention.

Scythe Monkey Grip, not History of Bastard Swords.

sYuzan wrote:

Scythe Monkey Grip, not History of Bastard Swords.

Unfortunately, some of the talk about the absurdity of being able to wield a two hander in one hand is kinda needed in this so it's not quite like that. The History of Bastard Swords (or lack thereof) helps provide a more fair picture on if it should be viable and if so how readily.

I so want to comment on the bastard sword. Give me two pages and I'll make it all completely clear, but regretfully as so nicely ilustrated I might just pop the red ball into the skull filled octagon

Monkey-gripping isn't about having the strength to wield it, but overcoming the inherent clumsiness of wielding a weapon that is too large for being used in that fashion. Hence, the 'style' modifications are on the weapon itself, reflecting the need to alter it. Amia's monkeygrip does not work like the PnP version.

Quote:

The Lore:
A practiced art, weapon bonding requires modifications to the weapon one wishes to bond. Removing guards or reseting handles for a different balance are examples of the manifest changes to a weapon that the one who intends to wield large weapons with a shield will make.

Andrew's bonded sword for example has a special balance, a special grip and a shortened blade paired up with a brace to keep his wrist from straining under the weight and range.

Given that there are style penalties in place, I don't see why a scythe is not possible for monkeygripping. Perhaps with additional penalties, if the DM team wanted to, of course, but RPwise, it should be doable.

can i get to dual wield them too?

It's hardcoded so you can't, afaik. Even giant models can only carry up to a medium weapon in the offhand, iirc.

That's correct. The only Large category weapon capable of being dual-wielded by even giant characters in NWN is the two-handed Spear. Would be kinda cool to be the main character from Samurai Kings, I guess.

Lord-Hadeis wrote:

I'm so glad Tormak is gone so I can say this, because I'd have never given him the pleasure otherwise.
I agree with him, well the end conclusion anyway. I wouldn't like to see one handed scythe use. The way the scythes are done in the game, it's not a weapon, it's a farmer tool. It looks silly enough as it is. Imagine it being done with one hand, especially with normal or small characters. It would look like a constand wandering graphical bug.

A true war scythe has the blade placed in paralel with the staff so it's basicly a spear, or halfted blade. And we already got one and two handed spears.

That's my two cents. I thrust it will be faithfully ignored *grins*

Don't be silly.

I said no to scythes because the old implementation of Monkey Grip (and even the current one, which is why you have to put penalties on a weapon you pick) didn't account for it being a one handed weapon at all. You still got two handed damage along with a shield. Even today you get that. It's why you have to put damage penalties on the weapon equal to 1/2 your STR mod, to roundaboutly throw yourself down to 1.0x STR and not 1.5x., because NWN's engine is old and didn't account for it.

It had nothing to do with practicality of the weapon or being faithful to history or anything. Hell, it's DnD. Why would I care about that? There's so much shit wrong w/ the weapons and armor in NWN that you just kind of have to accept the package deal, as far as I was ever concerned.

Scythe Monkey Grip.

Who is online