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JusticeXIII
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 18:50 PM 

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Just was hoping for some clarification. When a druid shifts into elemental form, the race becomes outsider. I know this for sure because a banishment killed me. I was told by some players that this is not supposed to be, that elementals were their own race. Also, summoning them via elemental swarn showed the race as elemental.

Is this a bug? Or is it so for a reason?


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 19:00 PM 

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Pretty sure banishment banishes Elementals too, that's all. They are, after all, Extraplanar creatures.

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JusticeXIII
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 19:23 PM 

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As I understood it, it is only supposed to ban outsiders, from the outer planes, while elementals are from the inner planes.


 
      
Liz
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 19:30 PM 

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Outsiders and anything summoned, regardless of creature type, yes. An elemental shouldn't be hit by it, to my knowledge.

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mirvala-
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 19:41 PM 

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Banishment doesn't banish elementals; it destroys all summoned things and outsiders. It shouldn't affect non-summoned elementals, as it wouldn't affect non-summoned magical beasts.

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Kraniumbrud
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 19:43 PM 

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all elementals are summoned...none are natural to the prime, sometimes rifts to the varius elemental planes opens through wildmagic and such but its never native to the planes from my understanding

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DerkDerkistan
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 19:50 PM 

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This is talking about elemental shape. Elemental shape should not be changing your race to Outsider. Elementals, while not native to the prime, are a very specific breed of creature and have their own subrace.

Banishment is also very specific in what it says it works on. A PC that is an elemental should not be affected.

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Terra_777
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 19:52 PM 

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If banishment is supposed to eat elemental then I think the banishment script should check for elemental racial type too instead of making the elemental outsiders.

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Kraniumbrud
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 20:03 PM 

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DerkDerkistan wrote:
This is talking about elemental shape. Elemental shape should not be changing your race to Outsider. Elementals, while not native to the prime, are a very specific breed of creature and have their own subrace.

Banishment is also very specific in what it says it works on. A PC that is an elemental should not be affected.


Banishment

Abjuration
Level:Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 7
Components:V, S, F
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets:One or more extraplanar creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw:Will negates
Spell Resistance:Yes

A banishment spell is a more powerful version of the dismissal spell. It enables you to force extraplanar creatures out of your home plane. As many as 2 Hit Dice of creatures per caster level can be banished.
You can improve the spell’s chance of success by presenting at least one object or substance that the target hates, fears, or otherwise opposes. For each such object or substance, you gain a +1 bonus on your caster level check to overcome the target’s spell resistance (if any), the saving throw DC increases by 2.
Certain rare items might work twice as well as a normal item for the purpose of the bonuses (each providing a +2 bonus on the caster level check against spell resistance and increasing the save DC by 4).


---------------------------

Elemental is extraplanar.. and thus should be affected, hells dismissal should affect it

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mirvala-
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 20:14 PM 

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Yes, but here we're talking about outsiders, not extraplanar. Extraplanar =/= Outsiders, and the spell in the game clearly states that it affects summoned things and outsiders only. Mind you, while this is on the table, I never understood why genasi gained the outsider traits.

Spell level: cleric 6; sorcerer/wizard 7
Innate level: 6
School: abjuration
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: short (8 meters)
Area of effect: colossal (10 meter radius)
Duration: instant
Save: will negates
Spell resistance: yes
Description: The caster is able to cause all summoned creatures, familiars, animal companions, and outsiders in the area of effect to be destroyed. A number of creatures equal to twice the caster's level in HD can be banished.

That's the text you should be working with.

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Kraniumbrud
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 20:18 PM 

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depends, are we using nwn rules, designed for the game mechanics and not rp or are we using real d20 rules designed for rp..cause if its the latter then its my way, and extraplanar is elemental aswell as outsiders are, it just means they arnt native to the plane.'

and no we arnt talking about outsiders here, we are talking about elementals which clearly are extraplanar as described in the real d20 spell, for that matter outsiders are extraplanar aswell..

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mirvala-
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 20:23 PM 

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We are using the NWN text because it is the one we are using. And the spell mentions destroying Outsiders. Not extraplanars, outsiders. So, elementals shouldn't be affected. The reason why we do not use all of D&D's ruling is because this is a game that is not always monitored by a person, so it is difficult to categorize everything precisely and script the spells so it touches this and not that.

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Kraniumbrud
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 20:25 PM 

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no we are using the nwn text because we havnt changed it yet, nwn was full of this crap when they made the game, the game was basically made for the single player campaign, and full of negleted things they never really attuned to 3.0 or 3.5 for that matter.

it was clearly an attempt from biowares side to avoid scripting the removal of all extraplanar beings, they took the most common ones..fine, we can do better, and we should do better.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 20:27 PM 

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So start a thread to discuss that, Kranium. This thread is about whether Banishment is working as NWN intended it, not whether Banishment is working as PnP intended it.

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Kraniumbrud
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 20:28 PM 

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no this is a thread about if banishment is working as amia intended, if amia was run like nwn intended we would freeze every 2 seconds from a time stop

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DerkDerkistan
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 07 2013, 20:32 PM 

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The appropriate people are aware of the situation now. There's really no need for further argument.

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PaladinOfSune
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jun 08 2013, 1:15 AM 

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To put it simply: I put the elemental shape as outsider, when it should have been elemental.

Oddly enough, the Bioware default elemental shapes are outsiders rather than elementals too, which is why I made that mistake - I just copy-pasted the number ID in the default shapes for the new Elemental Shape. Oh well!

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jun 08 2013, 4:13 AM 

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So now we will have peculiar cases of elementals who are definitely not from the material plane not being banished, but their native-outsider part-human offspring being banishable?

I mean, I'm not terribly fussed, but this lore tangle is a horrible mess!

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DerkDerkistan
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jun 08 2013, 5:24 AM 

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I can only think of one non-summoned, non-shapeshifted elemental on the server. And I'd hope it's immune to Banishment. Summoned elementals are subject to Banishment, not on the basis of subrace, but because they're summoned and that's how Banishment works.

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Charles1810
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 14 2013, 3:11 AM 

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DerkDerkistan wrote:
I can only think of one non-summoned, non-shapeshifted elemental on the server. And I'd hope it's immune to Banishment. Summoned elementals are subject to Banishment, not on the basis of subrace, but because they're summoned and that's how Banishment works.

Three that I can, honestly never thought to even try because shouldn't work.

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DolphinRacer
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 14 2013, 3:32 AM 

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serbiris wrote:
So now we will have peculiar cases of elementals who are definitely not from the material plane not being banished, but their native-outsider part-human offspring being banishable?


Things like this are so confusing they make me want to cry.

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Gobbledygook
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jun 14 2013, 11:03 AM 

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Another thing about Elemental Shape: Is it supposed to be able to be dispelled? At the moment Greater Dispell/Mord's works on them. Shifters don't get dispelled, and their abilities are Wild Shape abilities that expand from a Druid's.

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Kraniumbrud
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jun 16 2013, 11:00 AM 

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DolphinRacer wrote:
serbiris wrote:
So now we will have peculiar cases of elementals who are definitely not from the material plane not being banished, but their native-outsider part-human offspring being banishable?


Things like this are so confusing they make me want to cry.


genasis dont come from elementals, they mostly come from genies; djinns, efreets and janni's all of whom are outsiders

i dont know where earth genasis come from honerstly

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jun 16 2013, 11:24 AM 

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Marids are the water genies, and Dao are the earth genies. Sylphs can also produce genasi, and tritons can too (air and water respectively). There are a few other cases as well.

But actually huh I checked up on this, and here's the weird thing: The child of a djinn or other outsider with ties to the elemental planes is apparently called a half-elemental (which I can't find the statblock for). But presumably they're still outsiders, but they're still called half-elementals. Genasi apparently can only descend from aforementioned outsiders. That's what confused me.

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Kraniumbrud
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jun 16 2013, 11:42 AM 

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serbiris wrote:
Marids are the water genies, and Dao are the earth genies. Sylphs can also produce genasi, and tritons can too (air and water respectively). There are a few other cases as well.

But actually huh I checked up on this, and here's the weird thing: The child of a djinn or other outsider with ties to the elemental planes is apparently called a half-elemental (which I can't find the statblock for). But presumably they're still outsiders, but they're still called half-elementals. Genasi apparently can only descend from aforementioned outsiders. That's what confused me.


source for this half elemental?

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jun 16 2013, 13:07 PM 

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Races of Faerun pg112, the entry on Planetouched.

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PaladinOfSune
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jun 16 2013, 14:14 PM 

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Elementals can't breed, so no, not much comes from them personally, but hanging around on an elemental plane while pregnant is another matter entirely. Genasi are created from that as much as anything.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jun 16 2013, 14:33 PM 

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PaladinOfSune wrote:
Elementals can't breed, so no, not much comes from them personally, but hanging around on an elemental plane while pregnant is another matter entirely. Genasi are created from that as much as anything.

I've heard this a few times, but never seen a source for it. Do you know where that info comes from? Or is it more like homebrew Amia lore?

(Is it just genasi that can be created this way? Or can a woman make her kids into aasimar / tieflings / feytouched / etc by spending her pregnancy on the appropriate plane?)

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jun 16 2013, 14:46 PM 

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Liz asked the *exact thing* I wanted to ask, though I was going to doublecheck Races of Faerun first in case I missed it there (still haven't checked).

If so it should apply to Aasimar and Tieflings as well though yes (have heard tieflings at least used as an example). Feytouched probably not... but who knows. Kind of like how no amount of exposure to dragons can induce dragon blood where there is none, whereas Aasimar, tiefers and genasi are all specifically planar-based rather than just magicky-breeds-with-anything-blooded stuff.

It's probably not reliable enough to risk planeswalking for the sake of inducing the traits, but I don't actually know what the % chance is. There's probably also spells and rituals to induce it.

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PaladinOfSune
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jun 16 2013, 14:52 PM 

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I'm pretty sure it's either Planescape lore or something from Dragon, but heck if I know off-hand. It's certainly not Amia homebrew, though.

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Rigela
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jun 16 2013, 15:01 PM 

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I found something on it, looking through planescape/genasi lore. Dunno if it homebrew or not, but it's fitting with planescape attitudes from I can tell

Genasi stuff
Quote:
Origins of the Planetouched: If you ask someone how the Planetouched got that way, most folk will tell you that it's due to their anscestry. If you go back far enough in a Tiefling's family tree, they say, you'll find that one of their anscestors was a Baatezu or a Yugoloth or some other kind of lower planar creature. Likewise, if you go back far enough in an Air Genasi's family tree, you'll find that one of their anscestors was a native of the Elemental Plane of Air, such as a Djinn. And sure enough, that's the most common way to become Planetouched.
But that ain't the only way...

Each one of the Inner and Outer Planes has permanent settlements in it. No matter how deadly a plane might be, you can count on there being at least a few permanent residences there. It might be a huge metropolis like the City of Brass, or it might be a town like Madhouse on Pandemonium, or it might be a small citadel like the Dustmen's floating retreat on the Negative Energy Plane. Even the Plane of Vacuum has a few small settlements of barmy sods who live there.

Each one of the Inner and Outer Planes also has a fundamental nature that pervades and suffuses every particle of every location within the plane. The Plane of Smoke, for example, isn't simply an infinitely big space filled with smoke. It's an infinitely big space filled with the idea of smoke. And while a basher living on the Plane of Smoke may be able to keep the smoke out of his kip with magic, there's no magic around that can keep out the idea of smoke. Because the idea of smoke is what the Plane is all about.

For those who have already been born, being constantly suffused with the fundamental nature of a plane doesn't have much effect. The process of being born tends to give a person a sense of self that's hard to change. Even babies fresh from the womb are already starting to define themselves on a very basic level. And once you start defining your sense of self like this, the fundamental nature of the plane you're living on won't have much affect on you.

On the other hand, children who are still developing in the womb don't have this sense of self. As a consequence, it's possible for a child to literally be touched by the plane while developing in the womb. Humans are more likely than any other race to have this happen, but it can happen to any race. And even for humans, it's a rare occurrence -- the overwhelming majority of the folks born on the planes are of the same race as their parents, and show no signs of being Planetouched. But every so often, two otherwise normal parents will produce a Planetouched child. That's just the way of the Planes.

[Note: The origins of the Planetouched as explained on this page presumes the existence of the Para- and Quasi-Elemental planes as described in various 1st Edition and 2nd Edition D&D products. If you are using a cosmology which lacks the Para- and Quasi-Elemental planes (such as, for example, the default 3rd Edition D&D cosmology), then click here.]


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Liz
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jun 16 2013, 15:52 PM 

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That's interesting. I like that it seems to assume that any planetouched can be created that way, not genasi exclusively. Kind of makes more sense that way, I think.

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Zedrik
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jun 17 2013, 12:18 PM 

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PaladinOfSune wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's either Planescape lore or something from Dragon, but heck if I know off-hand. It's certainly not Amia homebrew, though.


My 2e books are (aside from two or three exceptions) still packed away in a box in a room at my brother's house, so I can't really look myself, but I recall it's stated (or at least heavily implied or speculated) in at least one of the Planescape splatbooks that simply being on an elemental plane while pregnant is one of the primary ways genasi come into being (the other one of course is being descended from some form of elemental creature like genies, sylphs, or azers).

Aasimar and Tieflings, if it's mentioned somewhere, I'm not really aware of it, but it would make sense, since the Outer Planes tend to have this whole belief equals reality type of deal. I could see the ideologies of a particular plane altering a child inside the womb more readily than the elemental planes, to be honest.

Feytouched aren't really planetouched, though I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the Feywilds can/does change unborn children whose mother spends a lot of time there. Whether that results in a form of Feytouched or something else entirely, though...

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