AMIA ARCHIVE
https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/

Scrying the dead?
https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70254		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Eurgiga [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:23 PM ]
Post subject:  Scrying the dead?
Discussion topic for DMs: Can a player scry a corpse?

Here is a relevant debate on the same issue in PnP.
Author:  Glim [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
Corpses count as objects, rather than people.
Author:  Eurgiga [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:29 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
Glim wrote:
Corpses count as objects, rather than people.


Does that lead to a yes or no? If yes, how?
Author:  TheGoddessOfAmazing© [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
My understanding is you can only scry a person/creature .

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm

A corpse is an object.

Now discern location - you can find an object, but only if you've had direct contact with it. So if you don't know the person, or have never physically touched them, it would not work.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm

((subject to DM correction of course))
Author:  Glim [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:33 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
Scrying wrote:
You can see and hear some creature...

So no, you cannot scry a dead person, since their body becomes an object on death.

*edit* Ninja'd by GoA! But yes, what she said.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
If they are objects, does that mean you can use spells such as Obscure Object and Locate Object to find a corpse? And if so, Obscure Object is used to prevent you from being able to scry for an object so wouldn't that mean you can scry for a corpse?
Author:  Glim [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:36 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
Yes, those spells could be used on a corpse. No it's not contradictory because if you read the last few lines...

Quote:
fails to perceive the object (if the divination is targeted on a nearby location, object, or person)


It means that if the Scrying spell on a nearby creature would normally show the object that is Obscured, it does not show up and is hidden.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
Huh, it's all in the wording, haha. Figured I would get that clarified since someone will ask :mrgreen:
Author:  Nivo [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
Ninja'd by others. But whatevs.

No.

How?
d20SRD wrote:
You can see and hear some creature, which may be at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the scrying attempt simply fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save.


The target for scrying must be a creature. Corpses do, in fact, count as objects as they are no longer living. Rather simply, the Scrying spell requires a creature to form a connection with. This is because objects are harder to locate remotely, as compared to creatures. You can use the higher level Discern Location spell as further proof of this concept: it is harder to Discern the location of an object (need to have touched it) rather than a creature (only need to have met them).
Author:  CouncilofAutumn [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:41 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
Scrying on...

...a living person is as the spell.
...a dead person does not function.
...a person who you do not know has been killed and replaced with a doppleganger does not function.
...a person who is undead is as the spell (corporeal or incorporeal), you see their current form.
...a person in an antimagic field or under the effect of Mind Blank does not function.

Discern Location won't allow you to view the individual or object in question, but you could go there with teleportation as if you were familiar with the location.

Edit: Why did I even bother.
Author:  serbiris [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:47 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
Wait, hold on.

Discern Location has different rules for whether you are locating an object or a person, right. A person must have been seen or you must hold a possession. An object must have been touched. If a corpse is no longer a person but an object, is it then considered a separate entity and thus to find it you must touch the corpse? Or will having seen them in life (/possession etc) suffice?

Or is it that if you've touched the person in life, you can discern their corpse as if you'd touched the corpse?
Author:  Glim [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
That does get a little more grey, but IMO you would have to have touched the person at some point in time in order to Discern the location of his/her corpse. Because right now, as you're casting the spell, you're playing by the rules of it being an object, not a person. So you would have had to touch that object (the person's body if you will, their physical form) at some point in time (living or dead) in order to be successful.
Author:  CouncilofAutumn [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
The latter. The requirement is that you've touched the body, and so if you've touched the person, you can Discern Location their corpse.

Edit: :<
Author:  Glim [ Mon, Feb 18 2013, 19:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
Ya. The body doesn't change, only the state which it is in (living or dead).
Author:  DolphinRacer [ Thu, Feb 21 2013, 11:31 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
Nivo wrote:
Ninja'd by others. But whatevs.

No.

How?
d20SRD wrote:
You can see and hear some creature, which may be at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the scrying attempt simply fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save.


The target for scrying must be a creature. Corpses do, in fact, count as objects as they are no longer living. Rather simply, the Scrying spell requires a creature to form a connection with. This is because objects are harder to locate remotely, as compared to creatures. You can use the higher level Discern Location spell as further proof of this concept: it is harder to Discern the location of an object (need to have touched it) rather than a creature (only need to have met them).



Then....how....did the mage in Wiltun...scry the dead underwater body...of Coris's nephew? >.> Is it because the focus was something that had been frequently in physical contact with the now-dead person so it achieved the same effect? I'm not trying to criticize the RP done I just want to know what happened in that situation then since the guy had been dead for several days at that point.
Author:  Glim [ Thu, Feb 21 2013, 13:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
Though I don't know the circumstances of that plot, I would venture a guess that might fall under the category of "Find out IC".
Author:  DolphinRacer [ Thu, Feb 21 2013, 15:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
That plot was kinda closed out and resolved, more or less. I was just curious if that was just a mistake or not I guess, I know sometimes rules shift or people make errors, just was curious.
Author:  Glim [ Thu, Feb 21 2013, 16:00 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Scrying the dead?
*shrugs* No idea. Could be.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/