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Class Triangle - I need your help!
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Author:  Eurgiga [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 17:45 PM ]
Post subject:  Class Triangle - I need your help!

Hey everyone, I have a fun little project for you. I'm curious what everyone's opinion is as to where the NWN classes as we have here on Amia lie in respect to the traditional fighter/rogue/wizard trifecta. To that effect, I'd love it if anyone who has some spare time and a pressing need to expound can fill in the following diagram:

Image

How do I fill this in, you ask? Simple.
Take every class in NWN and place it somewhere in that triangle based on the attributes of that class. I am interested in this data because I would like to try and find an effective consensus on what each class is on its own before I develop a final diagram and analysis system based on it.

After you put a pin on the triangle for a class, I'd really appreciate if you'd explain why you put the blip there.

What do I think should be considered?
- Base Attack Bonus- Fighters get 1 BAB/level, Rogues get 3/4 BAB/level, Wizards get 1/2 BAB/level.
- Skill availability- Rogues have the widest variety of skills but lack Fighter staples like Discipline and Wizard staples like Concentration and Spellcraft. UMD, Tumble, and the Stealth and Trapping skills are heavily weighted towards Rogue.
- Variety of Uses- Rogues tend to lean towards a "Jack of all trades" aspect, at least in terms of mechanical abilities. Wizards have the same aspect, but for RP purposes. Fighters tend to be focused on melee combat and lack the skill diversity or stats to support a JOAT designation.
- HP- d10-d12 (Fighter), d6-d8 (Rogue), d4 (Wizard)
- How they tend to be played as a PURE class. I am not asking for ANY hybrid considerations at this point, that will come later.

So, here's my first one:

Image

Quote:
Arcane Archer: One of the hardest to place if not the absolute hardest for me, the AA is a full BAB class with rogue HP and some spell-like abilities, putting it reasonably between all three camps. The largest problem for me was that the class is ranged- and where, really, does that go? Wizards are ranged, but the characteristics of the AA class aren't really very similar to Wizards. Rather, they share a combat ethos with the rogue- strike without putting yourself in danger if possible. Because its BAB is so high it gets a leaning towards fighter, but overall its skills and abilities seem to make it somewhat more roguelike.

Assassin: Easy Rogue decision. Assassins are more or less Rogues with a little more fighting power and a couple spell-like abilities, but they still fall very decisively into the Rogue camp.

Barbarian: Heavy leaning towards Fighter. No Rogue at all- rather, it relies on raw power and a few combat buffs to win, pulling it ever-so-slightly away from Fighter and towards Wizard.

Bard: Heavy middle leaning, as the Bard is the Jack-of-all-trades among classes. It can fight, support buff, or work like a Rogue. However, due to its 3/4 BAB and d6 HP it's not really that much of a fighting class on its own, landing it a little towards a Rogue/Wizard hybrid.

Cleric: I'll admit, I may have placed this one poorly. On review I think it should be much closer to Bard, albeit more towards Wizard. With d8 HP and 3/4 BAB, it's on the high end of rogues, giving it a little weight towards fighter (its buffs help a lot with that, too). However, it's one of the few ninth-level spell classes, a defining trait of a Wizard.

Divine Champion: This one was somewhat hard to place, as it functions a lot like a Paladin but is quite a bit less proficient at combat (no divine might/shield). If it were a stronger combatant it would easily lean more to Fighter, but because of this weakness combined with its buffing abilities it gets somewhat of a bump towards Wizard. Still, could be a little farther left.

Druid: Wizard-Rogue with less combat ability than a Bard. Shapechanging gives it a high degree of toolbox-ness, but not to the level of a Shifter. Full spellbook leans to Wizard, but HP and a 3/4 attack bonus coupled with a dearth of true "make you dead" spells pull it towards Rogue significantly.

Dwarven Defender: Brick house. 'Nuff said.

Knight-Champion: A Fighter with some group buffs. Less buff-ey than the Paladin, so it winds up closer to the Fighter corner.

Master Scout: Rogue, leaning slightly more to Fighter than Wizard. Wide array of buffs and skills. This is more of a guess, as I don't know much about the class.

Monk: This one was very hard to place. While it does have some buffs and spell-like abilities, these are few and far between. Rather, it can go for crippling strikes or just raw damage. Really about dead center between Fighter and Rogue, as while it lacks in BAB and HP it makes up for it with its sheer attack spam. Skills are about an even mix of Fighter and Rogue as well.

Paladin: The magic Fighter. Paladins rely heavily on buffs, pulling them a little out of the Fighter corner towards Wizard.

Pale Master: A Wizard, but much tougher. Thanks to powerful class abilities it does have limited close combat capacity, though it's not one you'd want in a melee brawl. Rogue HP buff but Wizard BAB, the Pale Master's focus on survivability moves it somewhat away from Wizard, though not by much.

Ranger: Another middle-of-the-pack class, Ranger in and of itself can be played like a Fighter or a Rogue, often like both. Additionally, it has a paladin-like spellbook, pulling it towards Wizard as well. Full BAB, d10 HP and a plethora of freebie combat feats balance out with a lack of heavy armor capability and heavy rogue skills to put it about midway between Fighter and Rogue, with a leaning to Wizard.

RDD: Another 'buff' class, RDD itself has a leaning towards Fighter. With few self-buffs, it is rather a jack-of-all-trades mechanically. I think this one could stand to be a little more towards Rogue and Fighter and away from Wizard.

Shadowdancer: Rogue with some magic abilities. Done.

Shifter: I'll be the first to admit I don't know Shifters well, so this could be way off. Shifters seem to be very Druid-ish, but without the huge spellbook. Rather, it relies on its innate shifting abilities to fill just about any role, making it much more apt in the middle than anywhere else. Still, as it is not a dedicated combatant, it does shy away from any strong Fighter tendencies- though to be fair it shies away from strong tendencies of any class.

Sorcerer: Wizard with more HP and some weapons training. Should be closer to Wizard in the diagram.

Weapon Master: Do I even need to explain?


Anyway, just copy the first one, place your dots where you think they go, and tell us why! Thanks. :D

Author:  Nivo [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 17:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

Image

Author:  gorgometh [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 18:14 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

Best thing ever.

Author:  Pony [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 18:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

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Author:  TormakSaber [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 18:47 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

To do this properly you'd first need to acknowledge that DnD does a 4-role system not a 3-role system, because divine and arcane are treated very different.

Author:  Naivatkal [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 18:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

Honeydew Snugglepoof wrote:
Image

That is beautiful

Author:  Eurgiga [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 18:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

TormakSaber wrote:
To do this properly you'd first need to acknowledge that DnD does a 4-role system not a 3-role system, because divine and arcane are treated very different.


Not if defined with a sufficiently broad brush. While less accurate, it keeps things simpler.

If anyone would actually like to help, go nuts.

Author:  TormakSaber [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 19:30 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

Defining things with a "sufficiently broad brush" seems to be pretty much the opposite of your intention here....

Author:  Eurgiga [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 19:45 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

TormakSaber wrote:
Defining things with a "sufficiently broad brush" seems to be pretty much the opposite of your intention here....


Well, I define wizard as "Spellcasting class which tends to refrain from combat, hallmark features include high-level spells and low BAB". I really dont' care too much about the arcane/divine distinction here, I'm more interested in how they play when as a pureclass. Clerics can be accurately represented as primarily a wizard but with higher emphasis on combat and survivability for the purposes of the discussion, I feel. While it doesn't address the 'cast in armor' thing, I'm not really interested in it at the moment either. That will come later.

Thank you for pointing out the differentiation though, I'll be certain to address it in my work.

Author:  Bravo21 [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 21:26 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

Actually Tormak is correct, so much so that at the beginning, 1e DnD had seperate character sheets for each of the four primary arch-types. One for Fighters/rangers/paladins, one for Magic Users, one for Thieves, and one for Cleric/druids. Inclusive as well is the idea that when creating adventures and encounters, this mix of character classes is the benchmark for an average party of four characters.

Granted, 3e and NWN do their best to destroy the usefulness of party diversity, but there it is. I do like the idea of graphic illustration of where each class is, compared to each other. I look forward to seeing every ones opinions on where each class relates.

Author:  Eurgiga [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 22:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

Bravo21 wrote:
Actually Tormak is correct, so much so that at the beginning, 1e DnD had seperate character sheets for each of the four primary arch-types. One for Fighters/rangers/paladins, one for Magic Users, one for Thieves, and one for Cleric/druids. Inclusive as well is the idea that when creating adventures and encounters, this mix of character classes is the benchmark for an average party of four characters.

Granted, 3e and NWN do their best to destroy the usefulness of party diversity, but there it is. I do like the idea of graphic illustration of where each class is, compared to each other. I look forward to seeing every ones opinions on where each class relates.


Soooooo....

"Tormak's right, I'm still using a triangle"?

:D

Author:  IronAngel [ Fri, Nov 16 2012, 22:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

There's really no right or wrong answer. When you're drawing abstract models and representations, it's all about what traits you want to highlight, what generalizations are useful to achieving your goal. I don't really see the relevance of the arcane/divine distinction here, either.

One thing that strikes me is that Clerics are generally much closer to the Fighter type than your first draft shows. There's a real difficulty to placing them because they can be played both as melee or caster, but they're certainly better suited to melee than Pale Masters or even Dragon Disciples.

Barbarians are more "rogue" than "wizard", I'd move them a tad higher and to the left. The difference between Clerics and Blackguards isn't as great, and Blackguards actually get spells and Divine Champions don't. Assassins get spells too, so they're closer to the caster side IMO. Bard would be a good point of reference, because I think it should be the first to be placed at the very center of the triangle.

Author:  ainjyll [ Sat, Nov 17 2012, 1:12 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

Personally, I think that if you changed the points on the triangle to "Caster", "Melee", and "Sneak" you may be able to better garner better results.

Author:  CouncilofAutumn [ Sat, Nov 17 2012, 1:16 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

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Author:  NinjaClarinet [ Sat, Nov 17 2012, 9:54 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

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Arcane Archer: High BAB, rediculous enhancement arrows, and spellcasting synergy. Splits the middle for me.

Assassin: Rogues with a spellbook.

Barbarian: High BAB and a few buffs.

Blackguard: Fighter with summons and a spellbook. Sneak attack is rogueish, but functionally enhances melee ability rather than skill use.

Bard: Definition of middle.

Cleric: Full spellcaster with heavy armor, melee buffs and slightly better health. Drawn towards the fighter corner for this, nothing rogue-related.

Divine Champion: Fighter with a few buffs to draw it to the wizard corner. However, it also possesses Spot as class, giving it a tug up to rogue.

Druid: Full spellcaster with some melee viability to tug it towards fighter, and a few skills to tug it up towards rogue as well. Still mainly a caster.

Dwarven Defender: "Brick house. 'Nuff said."

Knight-Champion: A Fighter with some group buffs to move it towards wizard. Heavy skill dependence also tugs it upward.

Master Scout: Rogue with some gadgets to pull it toward wizard.

Monk: Melee oriented class with full stealth and detection ability. Splits rogue and fighter.

Paladin: Fighter with a spellbook.

Pale Master: Wizard that sacrifices some casting for survivability. Also has full stealth array. Very much splitting wizard and rogue IMO.

Ranger: Functionally a paladin with stealth and detection.Close to center.

RDD: Class gives no spellcasting or useful skills. Melee oriented buffs would place this firmly in the fighter corner if it wasn't for arcane dependency.

Shadowdancer: "Rogue with some magic abilities. Done."

Shifter: Deliberately intended to be versatile. Middle.

Sorcerer: Shouldn't exist.

Weapon Master: Spot access pulls them up to the rogue corner slightly.

Author:  Silent2001 [ Sat, Nov 17 2012, 20:55 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

I think Palemaster should be in the same general area as druid tbh, a lot of their abilities improve their martial ability after all!

Author:  ZoltanTheRed [ Mon, Nov 19 2012, 18:00 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

ainjyll wrote:
Personally, I think that if you changed the points on the triangle to "Caster", "Melee", and "Sneak" you may be able to better garner better results.


This, really.

Author:  IronAngel [ Mon, Nov 19 2012, 21:03 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

Weapon User, Magic User and Skill User as suggested by CouncilofAutumn is much better, IMO. It captures just what's relevant about the rogue in this context: a bunch of skills to provide different forms of utility.

Author:  NinjaClarinet [ Mon, Nov 19 2012, 23:56 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

My triangle worked on those assumptions. I assumed it was pretty self-explanatory :P

Author:  Eurgiga [ Thu, Nov 22 2012, 17:54 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

Thanks for all the input! I'm going to start working on the compilation and essay, hope you like it when it's done. Feel free to post more if you have any further suggestions for this- FYI it's going to be a discussion of how to build mechanically solid characters and choosing classes to fit how you want to play that character so the RP flows naturally therefrom. :D

Author:  NinjaClarinet [ Thu, Nov 22 2012, 20:49 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

I think this is something you told me a long time ago: "You can sneak, fight and cast. Pick two."

Author:  TormakSaber [ Fri, Nov 23 2012, 3:10 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

NinjaClarinet wrote:
I think this is something you told me a long time ago: "You can sneak, fight and cast. Pick two."


Bard 30.

Wizard 24/Rogue1/SD6.

Cleric 23/Rogue 1/Monk 6.

All three.

Author:  Bini [ Fri, Nov 23 2012, 3:15 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

TormakSaber wrote:
NinjaClarinet wrote:
I think this is something you told me a long time ago: "You can sneak, fight and cast. Pick two."


Bard 30.

Wizard 24/Rogue1/SD6.

Cleric 23/Rogue 1/Monk 6.

All three.


Wizard/Sorc 23, 1 rogue/ranger, 6 SD doesn't fight...

Author:  TormakSaber [ Fri, Nov 23 2012, 3:26 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

Buffs + Tenser's, you fight just fine.

Author:  corypx [ Fri, Nov 23 2012, 4:10 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Class Triangle - I need your help!

yeah I have my shifter but if anything he would count heavy on the fighter side.

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