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More specifically, to what extent are the "arts" on Amia/Nwn/DnD based on Intelligence rather than Charisma, or Charisma rather than Intelligence.

As an example, would a composer who could write brilliant melodies, but couldn't play any instruments, have more Intelligence or Charisma? Same with poets, someone who could write fantastic, moving poems but could not present them, what stat would they need?

Poets, Composers, Authors, Painters, even Art Critics. I understand that Charisma governs Perform, but is Perform necessarily a key skill in writing and the more technical side of the Arts?

"My heart beats for you, its cadence suitable both to deliver blood to my extremities at a rate which is capable of keeping me from falling, which would in itself be a show of love, however debilitating, and to show, should it be measured via a stethoscope or similar device, that its tempo is increased in your presence by at least 387.44 milliseconds interval."

That's basically what happens when you have high intelligence and low charisma.

High Perform and high INT would be what your are looking at.

Basically, the high Perform covers the composing and the high INT covers the intelligence behind the music. One could argue that a high CHA could do the same thing, but that's just my opinion.

Moth wrote:

"My heart beats for you, its cadence suitable both to deliver blood to my extremities at a rate which is capable of keeping me from falling, which would in itself be a show of love, however debilitating, and to show, should it be measured via a stethoscope or similar device, that its tempo is increased in your presence by at least 387.44 milliseconds interval."

That's basically what happens when you have high intelligence and low charisma.

I like this very much.

Oh, God yes, I meant to add that. Spectacular description. Made me jealous D:

I always see Charisma as the strength of one's personality and how well one would interact with other people, intelligence as one's ability to logically interact with the world and people in general as well as solve problems(example: writing music, doing math, Architecture, composing, playing an instrument).

Be more specific.

I always feel like wisdom might be more valuable for composition. It's not all about logic, it's about understanding and meaning.

Moth wrote:

I always feel like wisdom might be more valuable for composition. It's not all about logic, it's about understanding and meaning.

I would agree. Wisdom for composition. Charisma for performance.

Really depends on the art in question. Musical composition and theory is very much Intelligence IMO. Technical Instrumental Performance a combination of intelligence and dexterity. Choreography, likely wisdom and charisma. Dance, dex and charisma. Just some of my own thoughts.

It's whatever you can define your your character in a reasonable and impressive fashion.

Debating this seems like debating whether or not Dexterity or Strength bears more relevance on actual swordsmanship, or whether or not Strength, Constitution, or Charisma is the statistic that defines whether or not a person is physically imposing.

It's a game. Just role play.

The general discussion always has the silliest topics.

No dude, it's good to discuss things like this :p We are a roleplaying server after all.

Moth wrote:

No dude, it's good to discuss things like this :p We are a roleplaying server after all.

*like +1*

+1 for calling me a dude, but -1 for discussing it. :wink:

There doesn't need to shouldn't be a precedent for the way this is played out, as everyone is responsible for engaging their own imagination.

Look at a celebrity. (Charisma)

Look at Einstein. (Intelligence)

Outcome?

Lol, impossible.

But by all means Charisma (I believe) is based off how well a person talks with a back firm straight, has a cool voice and knows how to get what he/she needs doing but has probably the mind of a cabbage and forgets halfway through on what he/she was talking about in the first place, but since they're so awesome to the eyes of the public they don't really care and they all have a big laugh off from it. Could be a comedian, a dancer, paladins or public speakers sort of people that know how to sway a crowd. Coming to swap over a few things here, wisdom might cause the person to lose track of what he/she was saying but intelligence allows them to know what they're actually talking about. Take this as a reference to Terry Pratchett's novel "Unseen Academicals" and look for "Juliet." Thick as a twig but charismatic.

On the other hand, let's take an intelligent teacher for example as someone we can all relate to. No matter how hard you're going to try and listen to what he/she is saying, they're going to be quite frankly dull and leave us with our pens up our noses looking for the next interesting brain sample we could find that might possible be more interesting. You might have an interesting personality to come up with as an intelligent person, solving and coming up with brand-spanking new ideas, but you're obviously going to be very, very, very, very duuuuulllllllllll to the point that no one wants to listen to you. Moreover as people have said about wisdom in this, it mixes in as well that if it is low you might lose track of what you're saying and lose interest of everyone entirely!

Roleplay-wise, I think you can RP your character to how you want them to be but with stats such as:

8 Charisma, like most warriors usually do.
14 Intelligence, like some people do as well~.

How will this come to an outcome? Well, with my Sun Elf whom I'm playing with right now has those stats he is a tactician of sorts and barks at people with annoyed snarls and hisses. Sure enough he's SMART to be leading a group but he's not particularly the kind of guy people will trust in being led into battle with, moreover he's a scary guy so he's more likely to leave the impression of "cracking the whip" if people don't do what he says. Take note of the NWN campaign where you ask a nice old lady for a key to her house so you can kill the wizard, if you got lower Charisma she's going to think you're a thug and wants to steal her carpet.

Yossarin wrote:

Be more specific.

Would an Author/Poet/Composer rely more upon Intelligence or Charisma to write their respective trade? Is it a mixture, does it rely more on Intelligence, or Charisma? Are they interchangeable, and to what extent? I should specify that I wasn't looking for a comprehensive guide saying that x Charisma and y Intelligence are required for a Story +2 or anything. And I wasn't intending on lumping Authors/Poets/Composers into one, they were just examples to pick on.

To clarify further, I was just asking opinions, not facts and figures.

I've come to the opinion that Intelligence and Charisma may well be interchangeable in Composition/Poetry/Creative Writing, in that they're different paths to the same destination. Natural Talent vs. Learnt Talent, so to speak.

I'd say both charisma and intelligence, for composing. I'd also disagree that wisdom would be key because it seems to always be profiled in a reactionary way (perception, insight, intuition - all about immediate awareness and whatnot). One could argue that it also has to do with philosophical contemplation though which is fair enough, but I think it has more to do with charisma (for reasons I'll elaborate).

D&D stats don't exactly translate perfectly to real life especially for this sort of thing, but they work well enough and there's room for interpretation. I've always thought of charisma, being the "force of personality" stat, as accounting for creativity as well. I mean it's key for bards and sorcerers, the latter of which has enough inborn talent to literally reshape the world and the former is the go-to class for arts of all kinds. But intelligence is important for anything outside of hitting things with a sword (and even then it can help - see feats!). Your skill knowledge and training is determined by your int score after all, and it will affect things like your ability to perform (even if you have a great deal of raw charisma, its your training that makes the bigger difference in the end). But you can have great intelligence and loads of training and knowledge (which you absorbed fully and can recall perfectly), but you might still be not as good as someone who has had the same training but more natural creativity and stuff.

On the other hand. In P&P terms this would be "Profession (composer)" (I thought of Craft but you're not really producing individual items, although you certainly could be) which is wis-based. So D&D says you compose with your wisdom (and skill ranks).

It would be Craft (Art*). There is no need for Profession Artist/Performer because the Perform skills uses govern that in most cases.

The simplest way to break this down is to point out something you learn when you live and work in the industry: talent just doesn't cut it. Art is 90% skill, and it is a skill some have no inclination to develop. Talent is good, but it is icing on the cake. Extra gravy in the boat.

Intelligence governs the back-end of art within poetry and music. Charisma governs the Perform skill, or the "presentation" of the completed product.

People with the intelligence for composition but who lack the charisma for performing are the songwriters, the unsung heroes (or shameless sellouts) of the recording world.

People without the intelligence for composing original material but who have a great voice, sense of rhythm, vocal training and a marketable body/face (Charisma) are the pop artists of the day. Their labels provide them with materials to sing, and they record it/perform it on tour.

Exceptions to this are those who possess both. In my opinion, they certainly exist. That's why they make the distinction of singer/songwriter. A person who is a singer/songwriter typically both writes and performs his or her own material. One very contemporary example that comes to mind is Bruno Mars. Yes, he gets onto the charts and is a popular artist, but he also writes his own material and has been in the business of entertainment since he was a kiddo playing Elvis on a vaudeville stage with his father.

This is why in my builds for bards I always encourage Charisma and Intelligence being average to high abilities. My own PC bard, retired for the time being, was Int 18 and Cha 17 at character creation.

So, no, I do not believe they are interchangeable. They govern two different aspects of the artistic process that admittedly not every true artist has to take part in.

Of course, this being DnD, you would be a fool to be a bard with a low Charisma and a massive Intelligence. Unless you don't give a crap about your spells or the effectiveness of your bard/curse song.

*Wherein art is statuary, plastic arts, musical compositions, speechwriting, etc.

Well stated, serbiris and Yossarin.

Judging by the responses given, I would assume that the answer to the Original Poster's question is:

Intelligence would dictate one's ability to craft art, while Charisma dictates their ability to present said art in a competent and enjoyable manner.

Having been an actual RL music major and musician, I can assure you with 100% confidence that the RL relationship between being an excellent singer/musician/poet/whatever and being charismatic and likeable is utterly nonexistent. I've known great musicians who were completely repellent jagoffs, and marginal musicians whose personalities were of a sort that people for whatever reason just found engaging and compelling. There's not even a hint of correlation between the two.

In D&D, Perform is based on Charisma because the game needed to find a way to make Bard Song work, and once they decided it was going to be based on Charisma, it would be ridiculous to add another skill that allowed you access to basically the same range of abilities but to apply your wis/int/dex modifier instead.

In my opinion, the Perform skill shouldn't really be interpreted as covering the technical merits of a performance, but rather how well the performer is selling her/himself to an audience. Example: the Sex Pistols were technically the worst musicians in the history of time. But they were experts in making their audience love what they were doing. They had high ranks in Perform.

Hm, I kind of just said the same thing that Yoss did.

I've always interpreted Charisma to represent creativity as well. That's not to say that PC's with low CHA can't be creative, just that it comes easier to someone with high CHA. Same way extrapolating logic and equations comes easier to someone with high INT.

My reasoning: taunt, intimidate, bluff, perform, persuade. Most likely to be a good liar, good wit, good negotiator, you've got to have some level of creativity about you. You probably won't have great success telling the same exact lie/intimidation/persuasion to everyone you meet. So you tailor them to the people you're talking to. Whether this is the same sort of creativity that translates to art, who's to say? I think so. But there would probably be a good deal of synergy with INT and WIS, from analysis and sensing/observation respectively. Mental stats synergize for a lot of things just like physical stats. So IMO, it's a little flawed to try to frame any aspect of endeavor as simply one ability's domain or the other's. There are dozens of ways one plays into the same situation as the other. There are even plenty of feats in NWN and PnP to represent this(Weapon Finesse, Mind over Body, etc).

Long story short, the prettier you are, the less you have to know. Any college sorority chick can tell you that much. >_>

Having high int and low cha, would make it very hard to teach others, or make them see your point of view as charisma are natural (or unnatural) "people" skills for interracting with others. Best example I can think of in this case, is a brilliant doctorate candidate not getting his doctorate, because while he knows the material extremely well... he simply can't work with others or try to teach it.

Other way around, can easily have people like something simply because you said it, and not because it was an intelligent thing to say. Given that most people react to babies drooling or saying something incoherent, I think it's a fair example since charisma can easily be that X-factor where people go "aaaaw! Look at the baby.." Doubt they'd think it was cute if a 30 year old man in a suit did the same thing.

When it comes to things governed by the various skills, I'd say being a natural can play a big role in it, but skills and knowledge in it is worth much much more. Someone that's a natural at manipulation trough bluffs or persuasions might have an easy time with some random mark, but someone educated in it can easily be 10 times better at it and reading others. Same thing would go for composing, singing, writing etc.

my take on it is that the physical stats (str, dex, and con) all have equal bearing on your physical abilities, where as the mental stats (cha, int and wis) all have equal bearing on your mental abilities.

it doesnt matter which mental stat is stronger, you can produce art accordingly to your stats. charisma governs your force of personality. intelligence is your knowledge of subjects and wisdom is your understanding of content. if you lack in one, the art should reflect that.

its just the same with physical things, if the sword fighter has a high str and dex but a low con then he is probably very skilled but does not have enough endurance to make it count in the long run. you have to look at all 3 mental or physical stats as a whole working together rather than opposing forces.

I personally find intelligence and charisma to be bad representations of their traits. Rather feats and classes are a better representation. For example, a Wizard might be able to unravel the mysteries of the universe, delve beyond that universe and beyond, with just the power of his mind. But just because he's intelligent, doesn't mean he's going to be better at indentifying the points in an army to attack then an experienced military man who was born into that life. That fighter may be as thick as a brick when it comes to maths, reading and pretty much any scholary pursuit, but when it comes to breaking an army, he can exceed even the greatest scholars in tactical mastery.

The same applies for charisma in my book. Nither represents those traits very well because they aren't obvious physical traits. They are invisable traits that effect things you can't actually see. You can see a man of great constitution, because he is big, healthy and hardy. You can see a person of great strength as their muscles are developed, and they are able to lift more then most others. You can see someone of great dexterity, for they are nimble, lithe, tonned, quick of hand and always on balance. You cannot easily identify a man or woman of great intelligence or charisma. An ugly half orc could be a born again Martin Luthor King, while the pretty elven madian may be crude as a dwarf. Tha man in robes with glasses and parchment could simply be a lowly delivery man, unable to read and speak because of his stupdity, where as the lowly beggar's eyes could shine with intellgience enough to rival Oghma.

So yea, I don't like those stats personally. I mostly see them natural gifts in NWN, used purely for calculating combat bonuses, and only there for mechanical means. I tend to ignore someone rolling intelligence to figure out a puzzle in events I DM.

I think if anything, a good example of a mix of the two stats in NWN is the musican and the writer. The musican can set a tune, sing amazingly and make words flow with majestic grace, but the words that come out of his or her mouth may be trash, not better the rebecca blacks friday. Where as the writer may write the lyrics and express what he see's or hears with words that one wouldn't normally find in a song, and rather expert to find in the an article on theortical studies or something. But those words may never flow, they may never really have passion or mean anything. They are simply big words, used because they fit and nothing else.

The best musicians are the ones who have both traits, a lot of charisma, and a bit of intelligence to let them write interesting lyrics for their songs. The best writer have the intelligence needed to best expressed what they want, and the charisma nessarcy to have the imgination nessarcy for something to be expressed. The best scientists are the ones who have the great intelligence to discover and invent new things, but the charisma to tell others and entrap them in the same passion the scientists feels for his subject.

The best example of a man with all intelligence and no charisma is Paul Allen. He co-founded microsoft with bill gates, but unlike bill, he was what a lot of people like to call, the "Brains" of the outfit. Bill was the charisma. Paul never sold the product like Bill could, and as such, bill is the face we all associate with Microsoft, and most of the general public, have never heard of Paul Allen, despite him being perhaps more important to the development of microsoft to where it is today the Bill Gates. Paul was the intelligence, Bill the Charisma. You can't have one without the other to create truely wonderous things.

Of course all of NWN's skills are combat-oriented. The trick is to take your OMG100LORE and use it responsibly. For example, my elven wizard with 40 intelligence and maxed out Lore knew absolutely nothing about the sea, its creatures, and the gods of the sea during a DM event a while back. When we were asked to roll Lore, I discarded all of her skill points in the roll accordingly.

The same goes for any stat/skill. It's super cheesy to use them as all-encompassing. They are meant to represent many things. Some people are one of those things, some are two, and the luckiest of us might be all of them, but that's for the individual character in their story. The best characters, in my opinion, have a drawback to even their high stats.

Quote:

So yea, I don't like those stats personally. I mostly see them natural gifts in NWN, used purely for calculating combat bonuses, and only there for mechanical means. I tend to ignore someone rolling intelligence to figure out a puzzle in events I DM.

I respectfully disagree with this opinion. A player's specific abilities to decode a puzzle, recognize a pattern, or anything else should not inhibit the character from decoding the puzzle in a role-playing environment. Asking the player to solve this puzzle is, to an extent, metagaming. We all have character sheets for a reason, and it's beyond the pure mechanics built into the game engine. Stats should be heavily integrated into RP.

High strength and low dex? IMHO it shouldn't just be, "Okay, +4 to DAM and AB. -2 to AC." Maybe your character has some type of wound which causes him or her to limp.

Onto the subject of the OP. SRD defines INT and CHA as follows:

Quote:

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.

Quote:

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

Unfortunately, I don't know how either of these definitions answer your question, as neither specifically mentions where the arts come into play.

As to your example, if the composer could write brilliant melodies that affect the listeners' emotions, I would argue that he or she should have more charisma than intelligence (or at least SOME charisma). He would be conveying his personality and emotions. Without any charisma, I would imagine the musical piece to be technically sound but emotionally empty. The more the composition moves people emotionally, the more charisma required.

Yossarin wrote:

Intelligence governs the back-end of art within poetry and music. Charisma governs the Perform skill, or the "presentation" of the completed product.

People with the intelligence for composition but who lack the charisma for performing are the songwriters, the unsung heroes (or shameless sellouts) of the recording world.

People without the intelligence for composing original material but who have a great voice, sense of rhythm, vocal training and a marketable body/face (Charisma) are the pop artists of the day. Their labels provide them with materials to sing, and they record it/perform it on tour.

Exceptions to this are those who possess both. In my opinion, they certainly exist. That's why they make the distinction of singer/songwriter. A person who is a singer/songwriter typically both writes and performs his or her own material. One very contemporary example that comes to mind is Bruno Mars. Yes, he gets onto the charts and is a popular artist, but he also writes his own material and has been in the business of entertainment since he was a kiddo playing Elvis on a vaudeville stage with his father.

This.

In real life there are people who are both but those are few and far between, and even then, they have a "producer" in the studio who fine tunes everything to make sure its both a great song and the recording of it is also done well.

Most people are either one or the other.

I know session players for various instruments who could completely own popular artists in a game of crossroads, and yet those people basically get paid the equivilent of league minimum to record their riffs on albums for those same artists, who are basically a presnetation device in and of themselves.

There are the people who can write fantastic music, but suck in concert (int). There are also people who cant even play an instrument and sing at the same time, but put them on stage, and sixty thousand people show up to see them live (cha).

Hengall wrote:

Quote:

So yea, I don't like those stats personally. I mostly see them natural gifts in NWN, used purely for calculating combat bonuses, and only there for mechanical means. I tend to ignore someone rolling intelligence to figure out a puzzle in events I DM.

I respectfully disagree with this opinion. A player's specific abilities to decode a puzzle, recognize a pattern, or anything else should not inhibit the character from decoding the puzzle in a role-playing environment. Asking the player to solve this puzzle is, to an extent, metagaming. We all have character sheets for a reason, and it's beyond the pure mechanics built into the game engine. Stats should be heavily integrated into RP.

High strength and low dex? IMHO it shouldn't just be, "Okay, +4 to DAM and AB. -2 to AC." Maybe your character has some type of wound which causes him or her to limp.

Onto the subject of the OP. SRD defines INT and CHA as follows:

Quote:

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.

Quote:

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

Unfortunately, I don't know how either of these definitions answer your question, as neither specifically mentions where the arts come into play.

As to your example, if the composer could write brilliant melodies that affect the listeners' emotions, I would argue that he or she should have more charisma than intelligence (or at least SOME charisma). He would be conveying his personality and emotions. Without any charisma, I would imagine the musical piece to be technically sound but emotionally empty. The more the composition moves people emotionally, the more charisma required.

Except that an event becomes extremely shallow and a lot less engaging when a player can just point to their attributes & skills to solve every challenge.

Charisma vs. Intelligence

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