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alamut

Posted: Tue, Jul 12 2011, 22:26 PM

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Joined: 07 Apr 2009

I'm wondering about the relevance of Turning undead to a blackguard capable to summon undead. How to explain this ambiguous thing ? Also, how about a blackguard that follows Orcus ? That wouldn't be like...

" Hey, praise Orcus !... *Casts turning undead*... you bastard you destroyed his minions !".

Mr Hyde Jekyyl

Posted: Tue, Jul 12 2011, 23:13 PM

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Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Location: Necropolis

As a player of a Blackguard of Orcus, when I use turn undead with instances that the undead get destroyed, I will not RP them getting destroyed. Instead I RP it as sending them away. Blackguards in PnP does not have access to turn undead anyway, they get rebuke and command undead. Not my fault that Bioware did not add Rebuke and Command undead for evil characters with turn undead in Nwn, so instead I will just ignore the mechanical effects of the undead getting destroyed and instead RP it as them getting rebuked/commanded and sent away somewhere else.

alamut

Posted: Wed, Jul 13 2011, 1:55 AM

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Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Looks good and clever. But how about other deities. Bane, for example. Following your idea, I could assume that in case of Bane, his blackguard would be actually destroying undead ? I'm not sure if Bane would support undeads, sorry being so naive regarding to it. But since his blackguards are allowed to summon an undead, that would be actually contradictory. Unless Rping sending them to somewhere else, as you suggested. But... where ? His plane ? That wouldn't make him upset ? Like... "Gee, more undeads, wtf !"

jimbono1

Posted: Wed, Jul 13 2011, 2:11 AM

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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England

Bane Definately supports undead. See Baneliches.

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alamut

Posted: Wed, Jul 13 2011, 2:33 AM

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Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Indeed. Thanks, Jim! Btw, I miss you

Mr Hyde Jekyyl, I think I'll steal your idea as well, if you don't mind. Sending them to somewhere else seems to be more reasonable them destroying them. Thanks.

Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, Jul 13 2011, 2:47 AM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Just treat your Turn Undead as a kinda "charm" thing. Instead of it ICly being them fleeing in fear of you, they say "Oh, this guy's cool, let's go mosey over here, away from him, because we're not going to attack him now."

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Feonir

Posted: Wed, Jul 13 2011, 3:06 AM

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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Lookin at folks like a son-of-a-bitch.

Or liken it to a tank full of piranah, when the piranah arent circleing it means something nastier is in the water. You, being that nastier thing.

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alamut

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 14:15 PM

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Joined: 07 Apr 2009

Wouldn't be the case to give to Blackguards at higher lvl the spell Control undead ?

TormakSaber

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 17:01 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

No.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 20:27 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

You know guys, there are blackguards that do not tolerate undead and thus Turn them?

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Blackdragon12121

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 20:33 PM

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Joined: 12 Jun 2006

Err...Blackguards must be evil...evil automatically rebukes undead if I recall...Only neutral alignments get to choose...

*shrugs* but i could very well be wrong

Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 20:34 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

Link a source? :>

MoshingChris

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 20:37 PM

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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge

Which blackguards Svensk.

Because a Blackguard of Kelemvor is a Blackguard who has taken a side in the Good/Evil axis which is something Kelemvor doesn't approve of. And since Kelemvor isn't an evil deity the blackguard powers need to be sourced from somewhere else.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 20:39 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

I wanted a source for the rebuke thingy, it sounded weird.

But yeah, Thanks mosh - i was halfway through an essay about Kelemvorite blackguards ;>

MoshingChris

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 20:42 PM

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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge

Kelemvor would in my opinion fall a blackguard.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 20:44 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

Why? I don't see why he should, The BG is a [cencored] bastard but he get's the job done and most probably doesn't meddle with the unliving if he's a kelly follower.

Im curious because the kellies, mainly the EO, have had a Blackguard in our ranks

DustSpray101

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 20:52 PM

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Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale

Kelemvor is simply lawful to the best of my own research. LG, LN, -and- LE. On technicality, he -could- have BGs, though I don't think that it has ever been listed anyplace officially. But just a an aside, a BG may have a hard time explaining why they needed to make a deal with a demon (a chaotic being on the other end of the 9 alignments) in order to best fulfill their Lord's dogma... Devil, possibly, as they are at least lawful...

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 20:54 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

DustSpray101 wrote:

There's the good cop - And then there's the bad cop - And then there's the ruthless cop which all the other policemen are afraid of. But He get's the deed done and the streets are safer thanks to him.

jimbono1

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 21:00 PM

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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England

If a Blackguards powers are coming from a contract, kelemvor has no power over that contract, because it does not involve him, so that blackguard can then, so long as the contract is being kept to, do what ever he wants, which means he could just go off and kill undead, right?

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 21:05 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

jimbono1 wrote:

As per 'Kelemvor's agreement' devils(baatezu) are allowed to inform petitioners entering the fugue and the city of judgement of their state and bargain with them to sell their souls and become devils themselves.

Quote:

Souls can reside in the city for up to a tenday before a divine servant comes to collect them, often completely clueless to the fact that they are dead. During that time, baatezu are allowed to inform souls of their state and bargain with them
Souls are offered the chance to become devils themselves, usually starting as a lemure but having the chance to advance through the devilish ranks, possibly even becoming a pit fiend. This is the main way baatezu propagate. The prospect of becoming a devil may seem abhorrent to good-aligned mortals but those who follow evil deities and those who fear what awaits them in the afterlife are much more likely to take up the offer.

If kelemvor allows this, why would he agree to the stuff Jimbo just wrote?

Ps The stuff about Kelemvor's agreement may or may not be 4E. Checking sources atm

IronAngel

Posted: Thu, Jul 14 2011, 22:36 PM

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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Well the point I championed when this came up some years ago was that while yes, Kelemvor can have LE followers and they are fine, being a Blackguard requires contact with an Evil outsider and Kelemvor probably doesn't have such suitable servants to make the contact on his behalf. So it's quite unlikely that Kelemvor would be party to a Blackguard initiation, in the way that many Blackguards can have deities as their patrons without need for any soul-selling deals with independent fiends. The latter kind of a Faustian pact could still be made, I suppose, and you could maintain that Kelemvor is your patron god. But I don't see the IC motivation for that, and I seriously doubt the clergy would welcome you. Saying you're a Blackguard of Kelemvor is rather misleading in that case, because the patron of your Blackguardom is not Kelemvor even if he was your patron deity.

Then there's the fact that as a class, the Blackguard is designed around fiends, undead and trickery. There may be ruthless and evil Kelemvorites, but the Blackguard is not very well suited for that job because none of his abilities really support such a role. An evil Divine Champion or Cleric would be a better fit. You can't destroy undead very effectively, you can't smite evil necromancers, you don't really have any sacred spells to fight them off, and you work so hard just to be able to animate dead - which you would never do, regardless. Makes very little sense.

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DerkDerkistan

Posted: Fri, Jul 15 2011, 2:37 AM

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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth

The only thing I see that could be interesting about a Kelemvorite BG is that the fiend you make the pact with supplants the idea of summoning undead via the spell BGs are given in order to try and get the BG to fail in his duties to Kelemvor. That is an interesting way of approaching it, by RPing out the temptation of such. But other than that, I echo most everyone else. I wouldn't see why Kelemvor would allow it of his clergy and such. My temptation thing works far better with a more mundane follower.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Fri, Jul 15 2011, 2:45 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Worshippers also.

Dieties thrive on them, they need them. A Blackguard with a contract essentially has given part of themselves to an outside source beyond Kelemvour control. As a deity, would you want to let some random bugger with a demon on his shoulder run around throwing your name out, and doing things that you had no control over? Probably not.

Worshippers of Dieties are bound by their oaths and prayers. A blackguard isn't, he's bound by his contract, and that contract can see the blackguard doing things that breach the dogma of Kelemvour. Dieties are still deities remember, and even the most neutral ones still want their followers under THEIR sway. Your not going to see a follower of Torm being a Kelemvourite for example, even though he follows Kelemvours dogma but gets his powers from Torm.

I actually think the Eternal Order is getting kind of silly now with the many excuses building up to allow for silly builds. Its an undead hunting faction. Followers of Kelemvour. Its not that hard of a basis to follow, you don't need blackguards, PMs and "safe necromancers". Thats my opinion mind you, I don't speak for the rest of the DM team in that.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Fri, Jul 15 2011, 3:38 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Very_Svensk wrote:

I wanted a source for the rebuke thingy, it sounded weird.

3.5 PHB wrote:

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells.

All evil clerics Rebuke Undead and do not get a choice in the matter.

3.5 DMG wrote:

Command Undead (Su)

When a blackguard reaches 3rd level, he gains the supernatural ability to command and rebuke undead. He commands undead as would a cleric of two levels lower.

By virtue of recieving the ability from Blackguard, you do not receive a choice: You Rebuke.

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Leggomi Eggolas

Posted: Fri, Jul 15 2011, 4:20 AM

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Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Location: Oregon ('OR-ə-gən') [-8 GMT]

In FR, there is errata for certain deities that can have legitimate evil clerics; they always turn rather than rebuke undead.

Such as Shevarash.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Fri, Jul 15 2011, 4:27 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

I hate errata. It makes me wrong.

What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!

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Feonir

Posted: Fri, Jul 15 2011, 5:02 AM

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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Lookin at folks like a son-of-a-bitch.

XKCD is always hilarious and appropriate.

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DustSpray101

Posted: Fri, Jul 15 2011, 5:21 AM

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Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale

Oh commence the Lol's!

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Kraniumbrud

Posted: Sun, Jul 17 2011, 13:01 PM

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Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark

just because your god is a god of undeath dosnt mean your not allowed to destroy undeath anyway..

it just means you use undead yourself and your god gives you a *thumbs up* for doing so

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jimbono1

Posted: Sun, Jul 17 2011, 13:23 PM

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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England

Bane and Orcus are not Gods of Undeath. Orcus is a Demon of undeath, and Bane doesn't really care what serves him so long as it does. Orcus is the same, but he does not like anything, and will kill his own followers and servants if it pleases him. (Demonstraited by ShadowSoul)

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Victor Wilkinson

Silent2001 wrote:

Jimbono1 is my favourite.

^totally not a lie or anything.

slkNihilus

Posted: Sun, Jul 17 2011, 13:41 PM

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Joined: 29 Jun 2008

I remember reading in some sourcebook that Orcus, in fact, cares very little for undead. He simply uses them because they're handy, and might help him advance his own designs, and nothing more.

As for Bane... yeah, pretty much what jimbono said, I think. Sure, he rewards some of his clerics by bestowing knowledge of the ritual needed to become a lich upon them (Baneliches are mostly clerics, unless I'm very much mistaken), but that doesn't mean he "loves undead". He simply gives mortals a way to overcome the limits of a mortal body so that they can better serve him.

jimbono1

Posted: Sun, Jul 17 2011, 14:34 PM

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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England

Orcus hates everything. Living, Dead, Undead. He doesn't care what it is, he hates it. But he uses it still.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

Silent2001 wrote:

Jimbono1 is my favourite.

^totally not a lie or anything.

Kraniumbrud

Posted: Sun, Jul 17 2011, 15:36 PM

Player

Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark

he likes cookies ofcause

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