AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Hello everyone,
Rules clarification question.

Scenario:

Player A and Player B and Player C are fighting.

Player A dev crits B and kills B.

Player C kills player A.

Player C attempts to raise player B.

Player A states: //player b's toon is cut in half and therefore cannot be raised via normal scroll. Has to be true rez.

Player C states:// how is that so?

Player A states:// I dev critted and therefore decides how player B dies and what state the body is in.

What are the rules pertaining to this? Thank you kindly.

I think you should have PMed this to a DM.

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I think you should have PMed this to a DM.

Complaints are pmed to dm's if i'm not mistaken? This is not a complaint. All players were mature and was done in good sport. but everyone was wondering what the rules surrounding this was.
Rules clarifications are done on forum? as done in the past before?

idk sounds like one of those things that makes for better rp if you roll with it

First off, on this server DevCrit does NOT insta-kill. It does knockdown plus blind/deafen/silence, even if DevCrit was the killing blow. Therefore the argument is almost irrelevant for Amia.

I do not, however, know what the ruling is on deciding how someone died O.o
I thought you had to RP that you cut someone's head off, not just 'oops can't raise him lol'

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idk sounds like one of those things that makes for better rp if you roll with it

it was rolled with, and the rp continued perfectly with a rez spell being cast in the end. Only issue is players were wondering what the actual rules are regarding dev crit vs raise dead.. Why does everyone just assume its a grief whenever it comes to pvp? The purpose of this post was a rules clarification. Not a complain.

Well you only need true res if you don't have a body, or even a piece of the body. Just as well, because true res is incredibly costly and requires DM supervision as far as I'm aware. Resurrection is fine in this case--though you do need a cleric yeah.

As far as I'm aware, killer decides state of the body, with the caveat of "be reasonable". This applies to subduals usually but I'd say this is in the same general area. But yeah if you're using a blunt weapon or a really sharp toothpick, hold off on the insta-decapitations (though it's certainly possible with enough force...).

A DM would probably give you an answer with more certainty though I figure.

Oh and regarding devcrit: Probably irrelevant. You can eviscerate someone without the feat. It's definitely supposed to be a lethal blow, in vanilla NWN. Since you can't turn devcrit off though, I'm sure it's perfectly reasonable that the devcrit blow can be nonlethal/at least non-dismembering.

Without even reading OP really....

The victor decides the state of the body. Whether you are a lv 1 wiz with 10 STR, or a lv 30 WM with dev. Period. Unless a DM is there to correct your otherwise. Crit doesn't matter for anything when deciding the state of the body.

You're long enough registered on the forums to know to take screenshots and PM them instead of posting that.

I think you people need to chill >.> He wasn't complaining about it, more like clarifying the rules. Since the "old" dev crit basically one killed a character at full health it was usual rped that the victim was torn in half. Also for the record I don't see a single player name mentioned or a single rage in any of that ooc chat, it is a solid scenario to ask this question imo.

DM will lock this for breaking rules. Detailing specific events on forums... Sorry man.

I don't see what I'd consider explicit details of a specific incident here, so I'm not going to lock it. Anywho...

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The victor decides the state of the body. Whether you are a lv 1 wiz with 10 STR, or a lv 30 WM with dev. Period. Unless a DM is there to correct your otherwise. Crit doesn't matter for anything when deciding the state of the body.

That's pretty much it, within reason. Your sword/spear/whatever isn't going to disintegrate the body or anything like that. It could very well cut the head off mid-battle. What's the difference between an old-style dev that hits a guy with 100 hp, and a regular crit that hits the same guy for 150? Nothing, effectively. He's still been 1-shotted. The new one still inflicts (relatively) massive damage, plus other stuff.

My advice: There's plenty of time to cut someone's head off after the PvP is concluded. If it's that important, emote it soon as you can. And remember: no one can cast a raise on them for 2 minutes anyway. A raise cast before then will not take effect, period, ICly or OOCly. You might have cast it, but you've still got a lump of cooling flesh on the ground in front of you, not a living person who just can't get up due to OOC restrictions.

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DM will lock this for breaking rules. Detailing specific events on forums... Sorry man.

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You're long enough registered on the forums to know to take screenshots and PM them instead of posting that

....seriously? I think in future i am just going to put note: "Hypothethical SCENARIO" pls dont pee in pants when reading". clause in front of my post. How was there any details, of anything explicit or implicating in this post. Goodness.

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The victor decides the state of the body. Whether you are a lv 1 wiz with 10 STR, or a lv 30 WM with dev. Period. Unless a DM is there to correct your otherwise. Crit doesn't matter for anything when deciding the state of the body.

thank you so kindly for your clarification dm, and thanks the rest of you. In another scenario: (hypothethical please note, or please ready diapers before reading further) : if someone casts implosion, hellball, etc and kills someone , it could be rped as blowing the heads off, so raise deads could not work on them?

And the winner of the day is:

Vinasius wrote:

....seriously? I think in future i am just going to put note: "Hypothethical SCENARIO" pls dont pee in pants when reading". clause in front of my post.

Watch the tone here, folks. Keep it up and I will lock this.

To get back on track: I'd say read the spell descriptions for such, and use common sense. For example: implosion.

D20SRD.org: Implosion wrote:

you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it.

D20SRD.org: Raise Dead wrote:

While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

I don't see much room above for blowing something's head off. It's more like wadding them up like yesterday's newspaper. The pieces are a bit squishy, but they're still there. While the victor does indeed determine the state of the body, I'd consider it a pretty low move to say that would render the body unraiseable. Blade Barrier on the other hand? They might well be unraiseable cutlets.

Simply put, weapons are better for removing bits and pieces of your foe, be it a sword chopping their head off, or a hammer swung so hard it's like a Storm Giant just used your head for a golf ball. IMO, most spells would fall into the "kills but does not decap" category (BBOD being a very notable exception: technically, any time it kills something other than a golem or some undead, it just decapped them due to vorpal property).

But does that not conflict with a rule that you need permission from dead char's player to just say they were cut in half?

Also does timing matter? I mean if they said nothing up until the moment the dead player is being ressurected and then lay on the "cut in half" scenario, does it matter?

well its a good thing and a near godsend that your situation didnt turn into a HUGE bitching match in game as i have found is the first thing that happens after pvp here. for future reference though, it is wise to put a big colorful disclaimer in front and all, seeing as how were not supposed to talk about specific in game instances or name lest the thread become a flame war (which they do easily)

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I don't see much room above for blowing something's head off. It's more like wadding them up like yesterday's newspaper. The pieces are a bit squishy, but they're still there. While the victor does indeed determine the state of the body, I'd consider it a pretty low move to say that would render the body unraiseable. Blade Barrier on the other hand? They might well be unraiseable cutlets.

Simply put, weapons are better for removing bits and pieces of your foe, be it a sword chopping their head off, or a hammer swung so hard it's like a Storm Giant just used your head for a golf ball. IMO, most spells would fall into the "kills but does not decap" category (BBOD being a very notable exception: technically, any time it kills something other than a golem or some undead, it just decapped them due to vorpal property).

Thank you DM,
this more then answered my question. Research the spell/effect and then the golden rule applies. "Use common sense"

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I don't see much room above for blowing something's head off. It's more like wadding them up like yesterday's newspaper. The pieces are a bit squishy, but they're still there. While the victor does indeed determine the state of the body, I'd consider it a pretty low move to say that would render the body unraiseable. Blade Barrier on the other hand? They might well be unraiseable cutlets.

Simply put, weapons are better for removing bits and pieces of your foe, be it a sword chopping their head off, or a hammer swung so hard it's like a Storm Giant just used your head for a golf ball. IMO, most spells would fall into the "kills but does not decap" category (BBOD being a very notable exception: technically, any time it kills something other than a golem or some undead, it just decapped them due to vorpal property).

In the same light as RPing pnp spells in game, i was always under the impression that only a 'vorpal' blade could decapitate someone in battle. Or at the very least, a called shot (which I think is a heavy AB penalty). I dont know of the existence of the 'vorpal' property on the server, I've not been here that long

, and the called shot, I'm sure, could be RP'd just like a PnP spell no? I understand the implications behind a blow that can inflict that much damage, but to inflict specific injuries, or leave the victim in a specific state requires a very conscious effort IMO *See called shot reference*.

Just my 2 cents.....*looks around* damn...now i'm broke.....

*In true Mortal Kombat style Raise Dead spams uppercuts, owns Dev Crit and scores a Flawless Victory*

boobookittyscrew wrote:

But does that not conflict with a rule that you need permission from dead char's player to just say they were cut in half?

Also does timing matter? I mean if they said nothing up until the moment the dead player is being ressurected and then lay on the "cut in half" scenario, does it matter?

This is essentially what I was curious about. Granted, there is some leeway with the timing because the player who 'cut the other in half' was PvPing with a second person at the same time, which makes OOC talking a bit hard haha.
But, for clarification does saying you cut off someone's head count as trying to permadeath them? You are making it considerably harder to bring them back to life, and as such I would think it would require permission. Maybe? I don't know.

Trying to permadeath someone is pretty meaningless when the only people who can enforce permadeath are the players and in some (or all?) circumstances are DMs. I don't think there's any rule-breaking going on there.

It might be unsportsmanlike and a jerk move OOCly though. But then, it might also be completely justified. Personal preference and style.

Yeah permadeath was not the term I was going for, I just meant forcing a requirement of a specific spell to bring someone back (though that might only count for true res since it's so intensive to do).

I feel like the considerate thing would be to at least make some mention that the player is unable to be raised BEFORE the attempt.

If someone was in the heat of battle, killed another, and right after an ally raised the dead fighter:

"//Stop, stop. he can't be raised."
"//What?"
"//Yeah, when I killed him, I blew his face off."

Because now you've got a raised person who's supposed to be dead, a complete halt in the roleplay, and confusion with a vague and hazy "fault". And it could just get messier the moment the former dead fighter uses heal and scores a kill. I feel like the situation could have been avoided (Even if bitterly), by making a brief statement of the body's condition.

Victor decides state of body in all situations.

There's your ruling, and thus: Locked.

Dev Crit VS Raise Dead

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