AMIA ARCHIVE :: View topic - Requests/Questions related to the Shadow Weave

If you are anything not posted on the Subrace page or a base race you need to request it.

Same as special classes, same as Shadow Weave users. If you are not sure, request it or ask to be sure.

That's how its always been. You can not just say on your own you are not made insane, or why Shar allows you. Those are needed as a request. You can be a Sharran Sorcerer without using the Shadow Weave. Most just tend to once Shar allows them.

The Shadow Weave is an offshoot from the Weave. Shadow mages must be requested. The divine spells that Shar grants are not part of the Shadow Weave. Shadow mages must be requested, priests of Shar do not. If they did, then it would be stated that Shadow mages AND priests of Shar need requesting.

Shadow Weave Magic (General Feat)

You have discovered the dark and dangerous secret of the Shadow Weave.

Prerequisite: Wisdom 13+ or patron deity Shar

Benefit: From now on, your spells tap into the Shadow Weave instead of the Weave. You can also activate magic items that use the Shadow Weave without taking damage.

{Paragraphs of mechanical benefits not directly relevant to the topic}

Special: Knowledge of the Shadow Weave has a price. When you acquire this feat, your Wisdom score is immediately reduced by 2 points. If this loss or any future Wisdom loss reduces your Wisdom score to less than 13, you still have the feat. (This is an exception to the general rule governing feats with prerequisites.)
Restorative spells (such as restoration or greater restoration) do not reverse the Wisdom loss. You can, however, strike a deal with Shar, the goddess who holds sway over the Shadow Weave, to regain your lost Wisdom. You must receive an atonement spell from a cleric of Shar. Sharran clerics require the subject to complete a dangerous quest before receiving the atonement, and afterward you must choose her as your patron. (The usual quest is to destroy a follower of Selûne who level is at least as high as yours.) If you later change your patron, you immediately suffer the Wisdom loss. If you take Shar back again as your patron deity, it is not regained.

That was to set the stage for these queries:

:?:

What is expected

1 1/2.) What does "Shar's allowance" mean in this circumstance? Does it just mean an approved request, or is there something else?

2.) As a feat (or PrC, in regard to the Shadow Adept), can Shadow Weave Magic be requested for PCs that have already been made, as something gained along the way, or is it going to be required that the Shadow Weave Magic feat be requested prior to character creation and thus not available for later gaining/development?

3.) Assuming one gets gains the feat, what is the ruling on the Wisdom loss for those who have Shar as their patron? (As it is only an implicit assumption, not explicitly stated that devout followers wouldn't suffer it.)

Not sure where the quote Shar's allowance comes from.

Author:	LetumLux [ Sat, Apr 23 2011, 1:38 AM ]
Post subject:	Requests/Questions related to the Shadow Weave
This is not a thread about if Shadow Weave Magic needs to be requested and why or why not - DM ruling/Server rules are that it does; this is about how to request it and related questions/clarifications. I'm going to preamble with some citations: Mahtan Tasadur wrote: If you are anything not posted on the Subrace page or a base race you need to request it. Same as special classes, same as Shadow Weave users. If you are not sure, request it or ask to be sure. Mahtan Tasadur wrote: That's how its always been. You can not just say on your own you are not made insane, or why Shar allows you. Those are needed as a request. You can be a Sharran Sorcerer without using the Shadow Weave. Most just tend to once Shar allows them. ainjyll wrote: The Shadow Weave is an offshoot from the Weave. Shadow mages must be requested. The divine spells that Shar grants are not part of the Shadow Weave. Shadow mages must be requested, priests of Shar do not. If they did, then it would be stated that Shadow mages AND priests of Shar need requesting. Now, the actual feat in question is mainly concerned with the loss of Wisdom and the having Shar as your patron deity: FRCS pg 37 wrote: Shadow Weave Magic (General Feat) You have discovered the dark and dangerous secret of the Shadow Weave. Prerequisite: Wisdom 13+ or patron deity Shar Benefit: From now on, your spells tap into the Shadow Weave instead of the Weave. You can also activate magic items that use the Shadow Weave without taking damage. {Paragraphs of mechanical benefits not directly relevant to the topic} Special: Knowledge of the Shadow Weave has a price. When you acquire this feat, your Wisdom score is immediately reduced by 2 points. If this loss or any future Wisdom loss reduces your Wisdom score to less than 13, you still have the feat. (This is an exception to the general rule governing feats with prerequisites.) Restorative spells (such as restoration or greater restoration) do not reverse the Wisdom loss. You can, however, strike a deal with Shar, the goddess who holds sway over the Shadow Weave, to regain your lost Wisdom. You must receive an atonement spell from a cleric of Shar. Sharran clerics require the subject to complete a dangerous quest before receiving the atonement, and afterward you must choose her as your patron. (The usual quest is to destroy a follower of Selûne who level is at least as high as yours.) If you later change your patron, you immediately suffer the Wisdom loss. If you take Shar back again as your patron deity, it is not regained. The actual blurb about the Shadow Weave (FRCS pg 57) highlights the need to have Shar's help or risk damage to the mind in the form of the Wisdom loss, or "losing a bit of one's mind" but it never states someone actually descends into insanity; the Shadow Adept PrC (FRCS pg 52-53) which uses the Shadow Weave and gains Shadow Weave related magic feats states no extra stipulations to what the general feat demands besides Non-Good alignment and some magic/skill requirements. The feat itself suggests that having her as a patron is largely equivalent to having her aid in the pursuit (DM discretion has a different ruling here, of course, as evidenced by the quotes above.) So, there we have how the Shadow Weave is gained (must have Shar as patron and/or suffer Wisdom loss) in canon and how the it is on Amia (must have DM approval for the Shadow Magic feat / related Shadow Weave powers as they are not NWN standard things, or otherwise provided by the server somehow; either rules or errata.) That was to set the stage for these queries: 1.) What is expected of a request for the Shadow Weave Magic feat if prerequisites (including an RP reason, of course) are met? Is it acceptable to submit a request that is of the effect of, "Have Sharran spellcaster who has been pursuing lore of their patron goddess, would like permission to RP spells as cast from the Shadow Weave now, to venerate Shar and deprive Mystra of attention/passive worship through use of the Weave; here, some RP and/or background"? Or is there more that would be needed, in general? 1 1/2.) What does "Shar's allowance" mean in this circumstance? Does it just mean an approved request, or is there something else? 2.) As a feat (or PrC, in regard to the Shadow Adept), can Shadow Weave Magic be requested for PCs that have already been made, as something gained along the way, or is it going to be required that the Shadow Weave Magic feat be requested prior to character creation and thus not available for later gaining/development? 3.) Assuming one gets gains the feat, what is the ruling on the Wisdom loss for those who have Shar as their patron? (As it is only an implicit assumption, not explicitly stated that devout followers wouldn't suffer it.)

Author:	LetumLux [ Wed, Apr 27 2011, 19:22 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: Requests/Questions related to the Shadow Weave
I figure you guys are debating/deciding on the answers as you have time amidst all the other things, I'm just bumping this so it doesn't sink too far into the Lady of Loss' realm of forgetfulness.

Author:	Yossarin [ Thu, Apr 28 2011, 0:57 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Requests/Questions related to the Shadow Weave
LetumLux wrote: That was to set the stage for these queries: :?: 1.) What is expected of a request for the Shadow Weave Magic feat if prerequisites (including an RP reason, of course) are met? Is it acceptable to submit a request that is of the effect of, "Have Sharran spellcaster who has been pursuing lore of their patron goddess, would like permission to RP spells as cast from the Shadow Weave now, to venerate Shar and deprive Mystra of attention/passive worship through use of the Weave; here, some RP and/or background"? Or is there more that would be needed, in general? I would treat it as a Special Character Request (with one notable exception that I'll get to). In the Requests forums we have provided in a sticky, I believe, some helpful examples of a model Special Character Request, which can give you an idea of just how much or how little information may satisfy us. Though quantity is not as important as quality, and I would be looking for the same things in a Special Character Request to play a Shadow Weave adept that I would be looking for in any other Special Character Request. A magician who taps into the Shadow Weave is not necessarily a Sharran, so I wouldn't be looking for an answer to the question of "what drew me to Shar" as I would be looking for an answer to the question, "what drew me to the Shadow Weave?" Though, honestly, the two are inextricably linked and a request that ignores this fact ignores certain things that will help get my approval. Quote: 1 1/2.) What does "Shar's allowance" mean in this circumstance? Does it just mean an approved request, or is there something else? Not sure where the quote Shar's allowance comes from. Quote: 2.) As a feat (or PrC, in regard to the Shadow Adept), can Shadow Weave Magic be requested for PCs that have already been made, as something gained along the way, or is it going to be required that the Shadow Weave Magic feat be requested prior to character creation and thus not available for later gaining/development? This is the one exception I would make to the normal Special Character Request rules, but with one exception. I am a broken record in wanting to use our damned custom feats that Disco put in because they screw with the standard builds everyone makes for every class and combination. You want the Shadow Weave, imo, you have to NOT take another feat in your level progression that you would otherwise normally take. Some people think that's "punishment" and "unbalancing" but to me, it should be the norm. My rationale for this is simple - the Shadow Weave holds a certain allure for magi who have spent their time licking the boots of the gods of magic in token gratitude for what should not be so heavily regulated (and some magi may be old enough to remember Mystra's attempts to heavily regulate the Weave and its users). It promises power and even seems to promise to compensate for certain failings a magician would otherwise have, trying to command the Weave. That said, magicians late in their career can come upon it. According to the feat, you can't use both the Weave and the Shadow Weave, so I guess it is like once you go black, you never go back. Quote: 3.) Assuming one gets gains the feat, what is the ruling on the Wisdom loss for those who have Shar as their patron? (As it is only an implicit assumption, not explicitly stated that devout followers wouldn't suffer it.) My personal opinion is to keep it uniform and not make quibbling little differentiations when it can be reasoned that Shar would expect a gratuitous service from those learning the Shadow Weave, whether they are her worshippers or not. In the instance of non-Sharrans, the whole wisdom-docking thing is a brilliant way to keep her powerful as a goddess (much like Bane's tyrannical forcing of everyone to worship him to keep him strong). Those dissatisfied or power-hungry magi who turn to the Shadow Weave find that accepting its power comes with the side of effect of lowered wisdom. I would allow the interpretation of what that lowered wisdom means up to the individual applicant. Some might argue that the ritual thinking that a magician must do about the Shadow Weave invites a preternatural obscuration into the thoughts, as though the normally fundamental and foundation intellectual constructs common to the Weave are more malleable, more elusive and shady in the Shadow Weave. Or that using the Shadow Weave has some impact upon your capacity to understand the world, troubling it with the kind of existential and nihilistic whisperings that are a part of Shar. Or, to carry on deeper from that, that it literally starts you on a road of insanity, where reality becomes more difficult to interpret because your brain is simply have trouble processing something so inhuman. Again, I would leave the interpretation of the how/why up to the requester, but the fact remains, it is still a -2 wisdom. When the magi visits the cleric and gets the quest to remove the "curse", as it were, Shar is getting free service from a non-worshipper...and gaining a worshipper in the process. For those who already worship Shar, I believe that "plugging into" the Shadow Weave is an exploration of the goddesses' deeper mysteries, an exploration that comes with the same penalizing effects. Dedicants to the goddess merely have more of a reason to try to comprehend her mysteries, and thus, eventually, a reason to seek out her clerics and gain the atonement (upon which, I would argue, Shar darkens the person's mind enough to handle the Shadow Weave without the wisdom penalty). One may argue, "I am a follower of Shar, and thus I should already understand her mysteries and not suffer the loss!' But I disagree. You will note that this feat, and this penalty, are intended specifically for arcane classes. Arcane classes are not clerics. Well, the initial feat doesn't list that as a prerequisite, but it is the DMs' interpretation in this instance. That said, arcanists are not clerics and thus are lay-people of the Sharran faith, not those clerics initiated into the Lady's most disturbing (un)truths. Which leads to the question: what if I am a multi-class cleric/arcanist? At which point I would just defer to the "everyone has to go through it" argument of uniformity, and say that, welp, even as a cleric, you still have to investigate this aspect of your goddess, so prepare for the wisdom loss as your soul struggles to comprehend. You'll probably have a much easier time than most with the Atonement gig, though. I hope that answers your questions. They are not formal or official answers and in truth we aren't even discussing it behind the scenes, but this at least gives you my perspective, were I to see such a request.

Author:	LetumLux [ Thu, Apr 28 2011, 1:20 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Requests/Questions related to the Shadow Weave
Thank you for the comprehensive replies, it's greatly appreciated. (And, I hope, will also make the task of Requests easier for you guys as well, as a result.) Yossarin wrote: Not sure where the quote Shar's allowance comes from. The second quote from Mahtan. I wasn't sure if that was just DM speak for "DM approval" or if it meant something deeper. Probably something Mahtan himself will need to answer. I swear that another DM, ainjyll maybe, also made a similar statement but I couldn't find it to quote it, so maybe I imagined it.

Author:	Yossarin [ Thu, Apr 28 2011, 1:31 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Requests/Questions related to the Shadow Weave
Yeah, I don't really know what's meant by that. But I think I pretty effectively answered it, anyway, in terms of what I feel would be Shar's approval/motivation.

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Author:	ainjyll [ Thu, Apr 28 2011, 1:34 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Requests/Questions related to the Shadow Weave
Pretty sure I said something, too. But it was pretty much an echo of what Mahtan said, if I recall correctly. I've only this to add. I couldn't have said it better than Yoss.

Author:	Yossarin [ Thu, Apr 28 2011, 1:37 AM ]
Post subject:	Re: Requests/Questions related to the Shadow Weave
I should also add that I would never approve a PC who is "post atonement". That's too awesome of a thing to not have as a story told in the server and a set of challenges to overcome and opportunities for growth and RP and conflict.

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