Just curious what's the DM stance on con jobs, stolen gold etc.

I'll give an example or two - say if Bastard Bob stole from a beggar's bowl.
Or, say a guy decides to drop gold/items for others, and
Bastard Bob runs in to swipe it.
Ideally, a witch hunt occurs in both scenarios but the question is: does Bastard Bob have to return the gold OOC?



I can think of arguments for and against but I'm also curious about opinions of the populace or community in general. =)

You can do this all you want, but understand that just like the toll roads that certain factions used to set up the players you are stealing from don't actually have to hand over their gold/items.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

No no, that wasn't the question.
In the examples, the gold was already taken both IC and mechanically.

The question is: should it be returned OOC and what is the DMs stance on it?

If you take it, you damn well better give it back when you get shanked. Don't dish what you can't take.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Quid pro quo is the name of that game and it's a dangerous one to play.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

It sure is. But that's what happens when you're willing to take from people....you have to be willing to be taken back from. If you're not, then don't take to begin with.

And of course a DM can just override all that and give and take at whim if plot demands.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Ah yes, of course. The fact that the gold is returned upon getting shanked is not in question as that's IC. I was more wondering along the lines of whether it needs to be returned OOC - that is, out of character. Pretty much when someone demands it OOC.

That's why it's better to just emote the stealing of gold and such and leave the actual mechanical theft of gold and items to DM plots.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III

... Yes, I just said that twice. If you're going to steal it, then you need to let them steal it too. Don't dish what you can't take!

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

This is more complex than you're making it out to be, and your search for an easy answer gives me some concern about your motivations. You want a blanket answer of "yes" or "no" that applies to all situations and thus absolve you from any wrongdoing ever, but the fact of the matter is, we leave matters like this open so that they can be prosecuted.

In the two examples you provided, for example, the first is understandable - the beggar's bowl is out there, and so long as you give them a chance to stop you (an opposed Dex check if your blatant, for example, or a Move Silent vs. Spot check if you're being sneaky), you can make off with their cash and be a bastard.

But in saying "yes" to this example you want me to also say "yes" to the second example, which I will not. Why? Because dropping items on the ground is a limitation of the server. Most PC-PC transactions are able to open the barter window and exchange goods that way, but when a DM is possessing an NPC, for example, the barter window often will not function in PC-NPC transactions and so products must be placed on the ground to represent them changing hands. To swoop in and pick it up off the ground and run away would be grounds for me to take what you stole and give it back (and maybe more) and then ban you on the spot for being an asshole, OOC.

Best answer to this sort of question ever!

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

The latter example was actually given with PCs in mind. Though you do bring up a good point about PC-NPC transactions. I would almost say it is obvious when something is done OOC. Such as the instances of mechanical limitations.

Tormak's view is the same as mine pretty much.

A better example: player A wagers with player B over duel for Ten million gold. Bastard Bob steps in as say.... the middle man and holds on to the wager. He bolts in the middle of the countdown. Its ten million. No doubt to the majority of the player base, it hurts OOC.

I guess I might be torn between returning it OOC and immediately quenching the burning hate that has been conjured up; the motivation to hunt you down at all costs and flay you alive
or
keeping it, and possibly get an OOC shitstorm.

It can potentially lead to some interesting situations in my opinon - such as, if an assassination order was made, would the assassin return the ten million he gets off Bastard Bob or bolt with it as well?

Its just something I was thinking about really and I've been given the opinion that the playerbase can't take it.
Still. I just thought to put this in general discussion to hear the thoughts and views of both players and DMs.

So the other question: Would you actually keep IC if you got ten million conned off you? Or would you throw up a shitstorm and demand it be returned OOC?

If I were a DM mitigating that situation, I would probably come down with, "If they were stupid enough to handle you ten million gold in cash without a thorough background check, character references, and both a legal and physical means of collecting collateral from you should you lose or abscond with the money, then they deserve to lose 10 million gold."

Of course, the people who have 10 million gold also probably have a lot more than that, too, so...

Not a DM, but I tend to handle a lot of situations being a guard with people attempting con jobs or robberies.

This is honestly the more entertaining type that I see if it is well thought out and demostrated well. I will give one example in the past that had happened that I loved. Charater A takes a loan out from Charater B, but Charater B does not have any proof of the said loan transation thus no way to prove that it really happened. Stating as before I highly enjoy Con jobs since it boreders the lines of legal illegal depending how well thought it is, and often is better rp than *takes item and runs like hell.*

To answer the other part as long as you are caught you actually give up the item or gold that was taken no harm done. Just be prepared that there will be occ issues and dislike, even with the pick pocket system how it is I stole a heal kit from someone and let me tell you people dislike having their items taken regardless how strong. Though if you got the item icly through actual events unless it is an epic item I would see no reason you would have to give the item back, and only give the epic item back as a occ curtisy to keep people enspired to keep the rp going.

((Posted after making sure it was alright))

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Lieutenant Belalad Feiwallyan

((Please take note if you PM me and you are ignored resend to me in 1-3days, it is likely due to not realizing I got mail))

Best con: Does this smell like knockout potion?

Works everytime.


To the topic:

If they agree to it OOCLy and give you the money and say 'You can keep it' I see no reason as to why not give it back.

Back when the Black Flag was operating in South Cordor they knocked out one of my PC's and just emoted taking the gold from me, as it is the standard right now, but I decided to give them some money because it made sense. Course not all of it, and they didn't really expect it, but it was a nice gesture from me.

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"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

I don't think you quite read the examples I gave Hellscrouge.
It's not about rolling some dices and emoting getting gold from the victim.

It's more conning/outwitting the victim and successfully/mechanically having his gold or item in your inventory already. See the example of the arena duel for instance.

In that example, once the victim made his mistake, the outcome is no longer in his control. The gold, is in the conman's hands. In theory as I mentioned, everything should be kept IC and the victim should attempt to retrieve it ICly.

Therein lies the problem and question: can the avg Amian victim take it and keep IC? Could you? Or would you OOC demand it be returned?


The DM's have given their own views on it but I'm kind of interested in the views of the player base as well.

Based on how some of the DMs responded, it doesn't seem to me that your question said what it meant. You mean... You get away with the million gold and the players ditch being IC and go straight to shouting derogatory things at you OOC'ly, demanding that you backpedal and give the gold back to them before they ever even react IC, let alone hunt you down for being a jerk (IC). Some people might think you're being a jerk OOC'ly, too, by taking the gold, but really I don't see why they would be given the right to freak out on another player for something that was completely IC.

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If I'd be given the ability/offer to take it back, then yes. But that is nothing I -can- do without the consent of someone, or without DM help on that matter. If they say oocly "Nope, won't get it back' then there is nothing ICly I can do to take that money back. Hence why you emote it, then you can just go *takes the money back* and no one is worse for the wear.

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"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

Currently you can't take another player's money at all, afaik the pickpocket tool currently give you X gold that's not subtracted from the victim. And even if it is, that's the only coin you can steal from someone without player consent.

If you ICly steal coin from someone, you won't actually get it in your inventory unless they oocly agree to it and trade it to you.

If you start to bitch and moan about this, people will likely just end up ignoring you. Not saying you will, but I've seen alot of people do this, just as with dice rolls, claiming it's bad RP not to go with it.

if you ICly steal someone's coin but they don't oocly give it back, then both parties are still in control, sort of. You "stole" their coin and the victory that lies therein, but they still have their coin and don't have to worry about it. If you actually stole their coin, they'd likely be worried about getting it back and having to give up the control to another player they don't know.. suddenly you have the old pvp conundrum on your hands again where people will bitch and moan to players they don't know, but keep silent with players they know and trust because they have a sense of security around what will happen.

That's really the crux of the whole issue, and all issues regarding player interaction where one party tries to harm the other in one way or another. And it's why most people just ICly steal stuff from people and don't actually take it, example someone 'takes' your weapon so you can't jump them. Icly you can't wield it before you get it back, naturally.. but how many WMs would oocly trade over their 5 million coin scimitars or bastardswords to unknown players? Don't do the math, or you'll end up trying to divide by 0.

Treat IC as Ic, and try not to view the inventory as what your char carries, but what your char has access to.. Example, nobody would run around with 50000000 coin on them if they are just going to go spend 10000. Or run around with 50 different bags of holding on their person. Simply not enough room on the body to carry that many, even if they weighed 0.0001 lbs.

Just ICly steal stuff and let them keep it in the inventory so both sides are secure, and I can almost guarantee you will never really have to deal with bitchy and angry players, resulting in more fun for everyone.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Read the example Grave. The gold is already in the conman's hands. Like I was telling HS, this isn't about "hey, I rolled 147 for my pickpocket. Gimme your epic sword. "

See the arena duel example. The con/betrayal is done, the gold is mechanically in the con man's pockets already
I got some answers from DMs. But I'm also curious what would you(the general playerbase) as a player do? Keep IC and resolve to get it back (begging/assassination order etc?)? Or would you demand the item/gold be returned to your inventory OOC?
Up the stakes now - ten million? Twenty? Your Epic item that you spent fifty million on?
The keg thing to remember is - you got conned or outwitted ICly.

IMO something needs to be understood, the whole point of RP is to enjoy it all around, not get ahead for yourself and leave everyone else behind in the dust.
That has always been the way I see it, and likely always will.

If a person lets you have something that you stole or such from them then they are being gracious, if they do not, then that is their right and you give it back to them.
The only ones IMO, who has any right to take away something from a player who is unwilling is a DM, and that is only if there is a valid RP reason to support that decision.
I know that there are some PWs that enforce the "you get to keep what you take" rule, but Amia doesn't appear to be one of them. Something I am thankful for since I am here to try and enjoy myself, not prove that I am better then others.

There is no "right" or "wrong" way for what you're asking, it is a matter of etiquette more then anything. That is my two cents anyways.

Nothing wrong with giving your two cents, its appreciated in a discussion in fact.
From what I gather, you feel that your character shouldn't suffer the repercussions if his IC mistake?

More crucial/important however- would you the victim be as "fired up" to seek redress/justice if the loss was returned to you OOC?

To add my own 2cents on your comment about RP, I actually am of the different camp and think RP is just that - roleplaying. Things can go well or wrong based on your decisions. And sometimes the repercussion isn't according to plan or fun.
Examples: A paladin that kills an innocent and gets fallen may dislike the dark period he has to go through but it's RP. IC consequences for IC actions no?
Of course I'm not a DM and am not enforcing this on people. It's just my personal opinion of RP is all.

Not exactly, It is more that I feel no other player should have that kind of control over another player's PC/belongings outside of a DM overseeing the event.
You see, I am used to playing in fully DMed campaigns. In cases like what you described all the players know and trust each other, so they are more likely to accept whatever the outcome is.

Here however things are different, most of the RP is between players, the DM team also encourages this I think? This means however, that many other things will have to be considered as well, how well the players know one another being one of them of course.
Aside from playing PWs and RPing I also play allot of MMOs. In many of them that allow PKing and dropping of equipment, ect. what I see come out of that, more then not is just allot of complaining and grieving and, well you can imagine. No one likes it when something they worked hard to get is taken away.

As Roleplayers I'd LIKE to think that we're held to a slightly higher standard then that, but the fact is that the time and effort put into acquiring something, developing a PC, setting up their RP, whatever else, is the same. Having all that taken away through the whims of another player can be distressing, and lead to some rather impulsive actions that you may regret as a result.
Personally I'd just like to avoid that altogether, we get enough of that in day to day life.

I can also understand what you mean when you mentioned getting a PC "fired up", however you have to consider that doing that too often will just result in a PvP on sight slugfest. Heck, it already happens often enough if you ask me.
If you really want something like that to further character RP or such, get a DM to oversee it, or get the player's permission before hand. That is what I think would be the most appropriate way to do it.



As I said previously. I am also fine with that, as long as it is overseen by a DM. Things like that work in DMed campaigns, not so much in player RP. Unless one is willing to take the higher road, which is not always.

This holds true on Amia


This also holds true on Amia


It comes down to what the players agree on ooc, if it gets heated, a DM may have to settle the issue, otherwise handle it yourselves.

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If my WM ever got conned out of his sword, he'd pull out his backup and go to down on you.

depending on what char it is, I'd react differently based on how they'd react ICly. Though I'm pretty sure that in most cases you can expect to get attacked or a bounty put on you to get the stolen property back. For instance, I wouldn't advice anyone to try and snag something that belongs to my BG assassin as he'd not just kill you but utterly destroy you and whatever friends you have by sneaky devilish evil means.

Where my Githzerai monk don't put much stock on material goods and probably wouldn't give a damn about something being stolen as it can easily be replaced. In the end it all depends on the type of character you're stealing from and naturally, the player who's behind the char.

If it's just a small amount of coin, like ~2000 ish, the reaction again depends on the character. Some of mine might just ignore it completely and say "Enjoy" while others would likely take the coin back and deliver some throttling as a lession.

Though to be perfectly honest, I doubt most people would ever get conned out of something that's worth alot of coin unless they are extremely careless. In most cases it depends HOW it got conned away. If it's say.. because you agreed to mythal it for them, then took the item and bolted, I'm pretty sure you can expect DM intervention unless it got cleared oocly first. If it's conned out by a proper and RP rich manner, most people might roll with it, though I'm pretty sure the majority won't.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

palemaster theivery is quite unlike anything else, if you've ever had someone come up to you demanding your arm, you may know the feeling.

How I would OOCly react fully depends on the person who I am interacting with. If it's someone I trust, I'd go along with it. If it's someone I don't know or someone who is known for shenanigans, then I will certainly not find it okay.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

I'm quite disappointed I haven't been conned or stolen from yet in all my time on Amia. (Save for one instance when I was knocked out, my corpse was checked for gold and I decided to hand some over because the RP surrounding it was fun)

Frankly, if ten million digits go missing from my screen I could care less - so long as I thought the RP was worth it. Perhaps if an epic item I'd decided to grind 100 hours for went missing, or a special DC item, I would be pretty miffed, but not only is that pretty unlikely, I also think well played villains are awesome and so long as both the victim and the no good rapscallion get some enjoyment out of the proceedings I have no problems. It's not like your RP is permanently damaged if some items or gold go missing, and I've seen it discussed to death that gold and items aren't terribly hard to come by on this server, so save for a few exceptions like no-hunting characters I don't see how it could have serious long term implications other than if you let it bother you OOC.

So I think I would be fine with being conned, to be honest; I like to see myself as a RPer who is more than willing to Roll with the Punches, perhaps a bit more leniently than some others. But like it's been said, IC is what really matters, and I don't think any character would take too kindly to being swindled like that, so expect the worst if you get caught.

Not every PC spends his or her time grinding dungeons and collecting loot. Gold is easy to come by yes, but not always for those who prefer to spend their time making gold in more RP legitimate ways. Ie. selling wands, potions or things they make from the job system.

Then again those PCs won't likely have anything THAT valuable to begin with anyways.

Not true, Crow is always broke, but has pretty much the best of everything he can find.
He doesn't grind, and the little hunting he does is while on patrol for a whole 1 XP/kill.

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Aha! So crow isn't mechanically 30 yet! Suubraaace

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
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Using Bob's arena example, if someone mechanically hands over 10 million gold to your character to hold and your character takes it, that's the breaks, kid. The issue is, your character will probably never touch the gold mechanically speaking. It would most likely all be done in emotes. I know that I, for one, don't ever hand anything over on an OOC level unless I'm extremely familiar with the person on an OOC level and know that even if they screw me IC, they won't screw me OOC.

All that being said, I would strongly, strongly, strongly discourage trying to con people out of their weapons or armor. Gold can be replaced without too much hassle, but if you mechanically take someone's DC item they're gonna raise unholy hell. What a DM rules on the situation will be completely dependent on the situation, but it's just easier to save everyone from the headache by not doing it.

If you're gonna do it, stick to gold. I'll add that you shouldn't be surprised when you spend a lot of time talking to me or some other DM because of people yelling for us because your character isn't playing nice, so take lots of screen shots of everything so you have proof for your defense.

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"I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III