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IronAngel wrote:

Well, I brought it up properly on the DM forums now. I don't know yet what the final conclusion will be.

To me, it seems to be exactly what our rules state:

Quote:

The following races can be played freely:

¤ All the races and subraces available via the Amia Subrace System, including:
¤ Tiefling, Aasimar
¤ Kobold, Goblin
¤ Genasi Races (earth, air, fire, water)
¤ Orog, Ogrillion
¤ Lightfoot Halfling, Strongheart Halfling, Ghostwise Halfling
¤ Half-drow
¤ Moon Elf, Sun Elf, Wild Elf, Wood Elf, Drow, Feytouched
¤ Shield Dwarf, Gold Dwarf, Duergar
¤ All basic NWN races

1/4 dragon or, indeed, "part dragon" at all is not included in that list. (Which is a long list simply saying "All available Amian subraces and only available Amian subraces.")

You can't play a quarter gnoll furry either, "merely" because there's no subrace like that. If your race field says Human and you don't have mechanical RDD traits, I don't personally see why you'd be anything but human. But some would disagree, so don't take my word for it.

Ive run into another who claims 1/4 dragon is perfectly legal without approval on the server, i therefore humbly ask that a dm ruling is made and such is made clear on the racial choise post, to avoid people..misinterpeting.

kindly, kraniumrud

If you are anything not posted on the Subrace page or a base race you need to request it.

Same as special classes, same as Shadow Weave users. If you are not sure, request it or ask to be sure.

can this be clearified on the subrace thing?...it seems there is alot of confusion on the subject of...such races

So...we have to request to play a Sharran sorcerer? When did that come into effect? I've got more than one, none ever requested...

No more clarification is necessary. Anyone doing otherwise is either petulant or a moron.

should we report infractions then?

That's how its always been. You can not just say on your own you are not made insane, or why Shar allows you. Those are needed as a request. You can be a Sharran Sorcerer without using the Shadow Weave. Most just tend to once Shar allows them.

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

That's how its always been. You can not just say on your own you are not made insane, or why Shar allows you. Those are needed as a request. You can be a Sharran Sorcerer without using the Shadow Weave. Most just tend to once Shar allows them.

i do believe casting shadoweave needs a feat aswell..that halt all light related spells too...so i would summise that it is needed to make a request regardless..to get the feat

Well that would mean that even Sharran clerics need to be requested. Even her divine magic would travel through the Shadow Weave...

I always thought you only had to request it if you're a non-Sharran claiming to use the Shadow Weave. That's because at that time, the caster must other give up a portion of their mind, or have their god make an agreement Shar for them. Otherwise, Sharran anything-other-than-melee requires a request.

No, I'm not petulant. I'm concerned. Both for my sake (I don't want to get in trouble) and for the team's (I don't want you to have to deal with my chars when it's something I can fix ahead of time)

Iron Angel wrote:

If your race field says Human and you don't have mechanical RDD traits, I don't personally see why you'd be anything but human. But some would disagree, so don't take my word for it.

I agree with /this/. But the people with RDD ranks? What about them? While the team says they don't /LIKE/ quarter dragons, (in much the same way that people don't like malaria) it's been allowed up til now, for my best knowledge, so long as RDD is taken.

And as for the Shadow Weave, Maht, that's not listed -anywhere- that I can find, including the Wiki. If that's a ruling, it needs to be put where we can see it, and figure out how to incorporate it. I certainly don't mind throwing it up on the Shar wiki page, at least, if you'd like. Ana and my other Sharran both used it, (and both are crazier than a shithouse rat) because I've never heard of a Sharran mage /not/ using it, so apparently I've been breaking a rule without knowing it. (Not that it matters now with my not playing them, other than me needing to apologise for doing it, so I'm sorry. I didn't know.)

The rules are your jurisdiction, and i'm not meaning to step on that, just to ask for a unified, searchable answer for things, that doesn't go against what the DMs say in things like the request thread.

The Shadow Weave is an offshoot from the Weave. Shadow mages must be requested. The divine spells that Shar grants are not part of the Shadow Weave. Shadow mages must be requested, priests of Shar do not. If they did, then it would be stated that Shadow mages AND priests of Shar need requesting.

This whole concept is really quite simple to understand and doesn't need any debate.

It only takes two questions. Is your character on the list of accepted races? Is it on the list of accepted classes?

If the answer to either of these simple questions is no, then you need to make a request.

I raged about the part-dragon issue after I'd left the team because I thought we'd made the decision that 1/4 or otherwise part-dragon needs either RDD levels or DM approval. Your decision was to the contrary: you can play a part-dragon freely, as long as you don't assume special powers. You can be a quarter-dragon Fighter with scales, claws and all, according to that call.

I'm glad if you've changed your mind (or rather returned to the conclusion we made earlier and the letter of the rule besides) and consider 1/4 dragons a no-go without RDD or approval, but that's not the call you made last time. Could you make a final decision and post the clarified rule into R&L? I made the initiative well over a year ago but didn't have the chance to see it through. The topic should still be in Whimsy, and maybe you even bumped it around last March.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45838&hilit=rdd&start=0

(The topic may be hard to follow because the flamewar was split and moved, but you can probably find it in your Review forum or whatever it's called.)

like I said last time, the f is a quater blood dragon. if you mean rdd tieflings then sorry but your late on the boat, I could point to dm's who use them but wont.

anyway no comment, i'm past the quater half this that phase.

tiefling hasnt even been mentioned a quater blood is apparently a halfdragons child with a regular person.
and yes they do exist ingame, and i thank the dm's for the responces, i would have liked some more info in the subrace rules but they have more important things to do.

lore thread, roughly page 65, I remember why I stopped talking about it now -_-

as was said before, your either half dragon or not, rdd 10 does not reshape time and space and make you into a half dragon you are either born one or not one, etc etc i'm not doing it again, please see lore thread.

1/4 dragon seems to be an excuse for people to circumvent the half breed approval...people pick it, rp as a half dragon.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

1/4 dragon seems to be an excuse for people to circumvent the half breed approval...people pick it, rp as a half dragon.

Actually people pick it to RP as a half dragon that still looks more like a human/elf than dragon but is still all dragon-y. Rather than the ugly ass proper half dragon appearance that they have.

RPing it as a half-dragon is still not OK. DM team has stated that repeatedly.

However.

There are plenty of quarter-dragon RDDs on the server, which is why I am confused as to how that's not ok, in addition to the DMs stating until they're blue in the face in the Requests/Lore/various RDD threads that while that's crap, it /is legal/. They just don't like it.

So if it's legal or not isn't really a problem, either way. I'm just looking for a straight answer, documented somewhere so that when I or another want to make a char, we don't have to drag another thread like this up. Same goes for tieflings/aasimar/genasi, btw. Because mechanically, you're supported. It's the RP that's at question.

And we want to make it Illegal. At least that's what my argument in this topic is.

someone needs to define the difference between rdds, half dragons, and other, before this thread draws to a close.

Half dragons: Child of a humanoid or kobold or goblin or whatever and a dragon. Must be requested and approved. Not sure if the RDD 10 requirement is also still in effect. You /CAN NOT/ use RDD 10 to evade the request requirement, and RDD 10 is NOT a halfdragon in any way other than mechanically.

RDD: Someone who has used arcane rites to "awaken" latent draconic tendancies in themselves. Generally, these people are otherwise normal humans/elves/goblins whatever. They're just innate spellcasters, and innate magic is delineated as having a root, way back in the family, of dragon blood. The further into the class you get, the more bound to the dragon you've awakened you are. This includes strength and vitality, scales and wings, but also to alignment, lines of reasoning and thought, and temper.

The question isn't whether 1/4 dragon RDDs are alright. The question is whether you can be 1/4 dragon, scales and claws and all, without RDD levels or DM approval.

So what's the final ruling on that? I just provided the previous ruling as historical context, but it needn't affect what the DMs say this time.

No, Iron, my question (as I am the one that told Kraniumbrud that claiming 1/4 blood with a representation of 10 RDD levels is legal) includes RDD-leveled dragonkin.

Im fairly sure the DMs arent going to touch this thread with a ten foot pole as long as it seems that everyone is yelling at each other and its going in circles.

The major issue of this thread has already been resolved. 1/4 dragons made to circumvent requesting a 1/2 dragon are against our rules. Period. Enforce it. Report infractions.

There isn't even such a thing as "1/4" dragons in our setting. You're just a humanoid that happens to have a draconic grandparent. That doesn't manifest in any way whatsoever. Even if you take Dragon Disciple, you don't suddenly look like a half-dragon.

Dark Immolation wrote:

The major issue of this thread has already been resolved. 1/4 dragons made to circumvent requesting a 1/2 dragon are against our rules. Period. Enforce it. Report infractions.

There isn't even such a thing as "1/4" dragons in our setting. You're just a humanoid that happens to have a draconic grandparent. That doesn't manifest in any way whatsoever. Even if you take Dragon Disciple, you don't suddenly look like a half-dragon.

Well that's the problem. Last time this came up, the official conclusion was that it's fine. In the topic I linked to. If it's changed now, that's awesome and everything I've ever wanted, but it's probably better the current ruling is double-checked and then finally posted into the R&L character creation topic.

So basically: can you have and manifest (in appearance if not in powers) draconic heritage unless you take RDD levels or get DM approval? If not, that's sensible and in line with the letter of our rules. But it's contrary to the previous DM call as well as long and unfortunate Amia practice, and therefore should be announced "officially" and explicated in the rules.

Well the answer to that question should be quite obvious: No. I can't manifest Undead appearance without taking PM(or making a request). I can't manifest Shifter powers without taking Shifter(or making a request). I can't manifest Draconic apperance without taking Dragon Disciple(or making a request).

Anyone who has a "1/4" dragon and is using it as a basis for draconic appearance is creating a race that would not only require a request by our rules, but also RPing a racial type that does not even exist in our setting. It's no different from someone claiming to be "1/4" vampire to have fangs.

Im glad we all agree on that topic.
Now i'm hoping the DM-Team will make a ruling on this issue.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Well the answer to that question should be quite obvious: No. I can't manifest Undead appearance without taking PM(or making a request). I can't manifest Shifter powers without taking Shifter(or making a request). I can't manifest Draconic apperance without taking Dragon Disciple(or making a request).

Anyone who has a "1/4" dragon and is using it as a basis for draconic appearance is creating a race that would not only require a request by our rules, but also RPing a racial type that does not even exist in our setting. It's no different from someone claiming to be "1/4" vampire to have fangs.

I fully agree. But it is not the rule as it stands, as you can see in the topic I linked to. I'm not arguing one way or another, I just wish that the topic I started in the DM forums sometime in 2009 or early 2010 would finally reach a conclusion. The last time it was discussed in public, it seemed to end in "we'll look into this but for now it's fine."

I think the whole problem is revolved around RDD lore. I think some see RDD lore as something that require some sort of draconic lineage that you focus and empower upon the same way a PM do with undead-like powers. Ending with you gaining half-dragon attributes and powers.

Others see it as powers that can be obtained by following a dragon, or draconic deity and obtaining the know-how trough them to improve upon your own standard [RACE] lineage because you want to be more like a dragon and so fourth. Ending with you gaining half-dragon attributes and powers but not actually becoming a different race than you originally were.

I'll try to help clarify some of it by directly quoting from the DungeonMaster's guide 3.5 ed, p183-184

Quote:

It is known that certain dragons can take humanoid form and
even have humanoid lovers. Sometimes a child is born of this
union, and every child of that child unto the thousandth generation
claims a bit of dragon blood, be it ever so small. Usually, little
comes of it, though mighty sorcerers occasionally credit their
powers to draconic heritage. For some, however, dragon blood
beckons irresistibly. These characters become dragon disciples,
who use their magical power as a catalyst to ignite their dragon
blood, realizing its fullest potential.

Dragon disciples prefer a life of exploration to a cloistered existence.
Most are barbarians, fighters, or rangers who have dabbled
as sorcerers or bards. Occasionally, a serious spellcaster explores
the path to further a goal of finding out more about his draconic
heritage, though at the expense of most of his arcane studies. Clerics
and druids rarely choose to become dragon disciples. Already
adept at magic, many pursue adventure, especially if it furthers
their goal of finding out more about their draconic heritage. All
dragon disciples are drawn to areas known to harbor dragons.

So to summarize, RDD's aren't 1/4th blood dragons.. not even close. Read the highlighted part again. RDD's are apparently those that try to improve on the small bit of draconic blood in them that is about as diluded as the blood in a tiefling or aasimar actually is.

Of course all three of those "races" tend to suffer closer lineage than 1/1000th of race X on Amia...>_>
But there you have the lore behind it at least.

...Blargh

For those who don't read the entire thread before posting.

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

If you are anything not posted on the Subrace page or a base race you need to request it.

Same as special classes, same as Shadow Weave users. If you are not sure, request it or ask to be sure.

ainjyll wrote:

It only takes two questions. Is your character on the list of accepted races? Is it on the list of accepted classes?

If the answer to either of these simple questions is no, then you need to make a request.

Yossarin wrote:

No more clarification is necessary. Anyone doing otherwise is either petulant or a moron.

Wouldn't that be the music letting us know its time for a lock?

Kraniumbrud wrote:

should we report infractions then?

Ainjyll, just to make sure: did the DM team collectively review your previous decision in the topic I linked to? Did you vote about this, or is this just the interpretation of you three? If you're saying something one day, and the opposite the next, that's your perorgative but you probably should officially denounce the previous decision so that there's no confusion. I must also disagree with Yossarin: there clearly is clarification required because this has been a long-standing issue that has split opinions and caused trouble several times. Just ask Tormak.

Seems like you're sweeping this under the carpet, but there still is a legitimate confusion here. Considering the history of this controversy, it's not something you could dismiss lightly.

Your call is too vague in any case, because both RDD and Sorcerer levels imply supernatural heritage that is manifest. So you'd have to phrase the rule something like this: "supernatural (dragon, outsider) heritage is allowed if and only if it's a necessary prerequisite of your class (RDD, sorcerer) or race (Planetouched), and it cannot manifest in any other way than what's natural for these classes or races."

There's also the issue whether your 1/4 dragon can manifest any dragon traits before taking his RDD levels, even if that's the intention. Since 1/4 dragon is not a (sub)race, in any case, the current rules do not explicitly deal with the issue. There's no question about whether 1/4 dragons are legal, though. It seems as if you're saying they need to be requested, even if they're Sorc/RDDs, but that's simply incorrect. (Even if I wish it was correct.)

So two issues to be solved here: are dragon traits alright in non-RDD (or Sorc, if by trait you mean spells) characters, and can your RDD be 1/4 dragon? The previous answer to both was yes, though the former was something that "might be restricted in the future."

Not going to comment on the RDD thing but...

Regarding tieflings and aasimar I personally think 1/4 is a definite no.

Tiefling and Aasimar are Planetouched. That's far from 1/4. It is thinned over generations and generations. Saying you are 1/4 there is imho just a cheap way to try weasel around the request of a halfblood.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

should we report infractions then?

IronAngel wrote:

If you're saying something one day, and the opposite the next, that's your perorgative

I disagree on this. There should be no room for flip-flopping and double standards when it comes to making rulings that will affect the RP of many players.
I, personally, would like my DMs to be credible and know their stuff before they make such open statements.

Guys, I think it's pretty obvious that you can report to the DMs if someone is breaking the rules. Isn't that what you do when they break other rules/PVP fights/etc? Take a screenshot of whatever evidence it is that shows that they're rule-breaking the simple request rules and make sure they know that they can't use that character if they've already been RPing them. Gotta make a new one, and request it before you play it.

Weren't you the one talking about common sense, Iron? Seriously. It's pretty obvious that it's okay right now, because it doesn't state in the rules that it's not. It might not be okay in the future, but... that's the future. Not now.

IronAngel wrote:

"supernatural (dragon, outsider) heritage is allowed if and only if it's a necessary prerequisite of your class (RDD, sorcerer) or race (Planetouched), and it cannot manifest in any other way than what's natural for these classes or races."

All right, then, people, would this amendment be enough for you to wrap your brains around it and have I guess a better idea of the expectations?

I've read it three times and i think it'll fill in the holes quite effectively! The 1/4 problem will probably persist but hopefully it'll be more logical now!

Yay!

Now they're going to wonder why you said "expectations" there instead of "rules," Yoss. I'm also going to point out that this is going to cause tension over all the ones already made, etc, if you start changing the wordings of official statements.

...have fun!

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Not going to comment on the RDD thing but...

Regarding tieflings and aasimar I personally think 1/4 is a definite no.

Tiefling and Aasimar are Planetouched. That's far from 1/4. It is thinned over generations and generations. Saying you are 1/4 there is imho just a cheap way to try weasel around the request of a halfblood.

According to Races of Faerun, the child of a half-fiend(/celestial/djinn/elemental/whatever) is usually just a planetouched. It's also possible to be 1/4 blood and not manifest any planetouched traits. But yeah, if you're 1/4 blood, you're a planetouched *at most*. Plainly-stated. 1/4 blood doesn't mean diddly-squat, you're the same as a 1/1000 blood planetouched except more likely to produce freaky kids. Whether or not you need to request 1/4 blood for a planetouched anyway is up to the DMs, but there's nothing worth requesting anyway except bragging rights. Which you can get for free by lying ICly.

I don't see why this principle can't just extend to half-dragons and such though (can't find anything stating such though, so meh). Sure, genetics doesn't work that way, but drawing the line at halvesies does seem to neaten it up.

The thing is though, there is no such thing as "1/4" genetically speaking for dragons. You either are a whole, a half, or nothing when it comes to them. They don't work like Planetouched. That's the reason you can't find anything stated on them working like that, because they don't.

And "extending the rule" to apply to that is not a good precedent. You'd be showing people that somehow ignoring the rules, making up a race and claiming things based off of a misconceived notion is okay, because if there are enough people doing it, we'll eventually recognize it. Catgirls and 1/4 vampires ahoy.

Dark Immolation wrote:

The thing is though, there is no such thing as "1/4" genetically speaking for dragons. You either are a whole, a half, or nothing when it comes to them. They don't work like Planetouched. That's the reason you can't find anything stated on them working like that, because they don't.

And "extending the rule" to apply to that is not a good precedent. You'd be showing people that somehow ignoring the rules, making up a race and claiming things based off of a misconceived notion is okay, because if there are enough people doing it, we'll eventually recognize it. Catgirls and 1/4 vampires ahoy.

Not entirely true. Whole, half, nothing, or sorcerer. Sorcs, while not being the same thing as planetouched to outsiders, are similar--in that they are descendents of something special that breeds with anything, and the specialness is genetic, manifesting semi-randomly with (usually) a considerable influence on the individual. The difference being, sorcs don't manifest traits physically unless they train for it (DDs), and planetouched can't build an entire career around their natural abilities (no more than any other rogue, fighter etc, ie they can't take levels in being planetouched except for special weird cases).

I'm not advocating pretending 1/4 dragon is anything special. I just went over how 1/4 outsider is nothing special (at least, compared to other planetouched) and so 1/4 dragon shouldn't be anything special either. So extending the planetouched thing (in the way I mean) won't break any rules, create new races or open the floodgates for catgirls and quartervamps. It just reinforces the notion that the lore doesn't give a crap about anything beyond half except for traces.

Edit: rereading both our posts, I'm not sure where any disagreement came from. I mean, I did say drawing the line at halvesies was good. Maybe my having equated sorcs to planetouched without any qualifiers was bad form, though. Fair enough. My bad.

No, I'm not disagreeing with most of what you're saying, it's referring to things 1/4(as if it existed) that I'm talking about. But it's more semantics than anything else, there's no disagreement in terms of content.

In other words 1/4's aren't anything special because 1/4's don't exists. But again, semantics, we're saying the same thing in different ways.

Im done discussing, i got my change and answers. Yossarin(probably the team) made a change in the allowed race thingy and anybody without sorc/Bard class will be told about to ze team!

i tried to stay out of this but there is an obvious problem with some of the comments here

Quote:

From D&D 3.5 DMG page 185

Dragon Apotheosis: at 10th level, a dragon disciple fully realizes his draconic heritage and takes on the half dragon template.

(summed up an rdd's can in fact force there blood to the level of 1/2)

From page 184 D&D 3.5 DMG was this... as previously stated..

Quote:

It is known that certain dragons can take humanoid form and
even have humanoid lovers. Sometimes a child is born of this
union, and every child of that child unto the thousandth generation
claims a bit of dragon blood, be it ever so small. Usually, little
comes of it, though mighty sorcerers occasionally credit their
powers to draconic heritage. For some, however, dragon blood
beckons irresistibly. These characters become dragon disciples,
who use their magical power as a catalyst to ignite their dragon
blood, realizing its fullest potential.

Dragon disciples prefer a life of exploration to a cloistered existence.
Most are barbarians, fighters, or rangers who have dabbled
as sorcerers or bards. Occasionally, a serious spellcaster explores
the path to further a goal of finding out more about his draconic
heritage, though at the expense of most of his arcane studies. Clerics
and druids rarely choose to become dragon disciples. Already
adept at magic, many pursue adventure, especially if it furthers
their goal of finding out more about their draconic heritage. All
dragon disciples are drawn to areas known to harbor dragons

interisting thing however is that in the DMG it mentions this specifically.

Quote:
every child of that child unto the thousandth generation
claims a bit of dragon blood, be it ever so small

that means that there are in fact 1/4 dragons all the way down to 1/1000 dragons. the only difference is that "racial bonuses" like strength and what have you, don't apply. however no mention of them looking "normal or otherwise" is ever made at all. it is effectively left up to the person who is making the specific PC.

Simply put, as far as the books are concerned. Its Legit.
you just don't get any +/- to stats unless you take Rdd.

(edit: took long enough but i updated my books!)

It doesn't really matter whether I say rules, expectations, demands, salutations or fortunities, I asked the question to prove a point: that the playerbase is incapable of accord and collective intelligence. I could suggest a thousand different variations of some change, and no one will agree on any of them.

Of course, no one agrees to "no change", either, but that means I do less work in the long run and focus on things more important in my mind.

1/4 blood

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