AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - How to play a Chaotic Evil Knight of Bane.

I'm having difficulty on what to actually.. say and do?
The example today was:
Alexander the evil knight was walking along with severe injuries and then a small hin comes out of nowhere and heals him.
My options were:
A) "Uh.. thank you." (Not really evil sounding)
B) "Get off me you little b*****d!" (Evil and just un-needed)
C) "Come near me again and i'll cut you open!" (Unnecessary?)

The point i'm trying to make is, is there any difference between being a complete as* and being evil?

Also, the most auquard thing after that was when I had an evil party, that didn't talk or communicate to eachother because we were all SO EVIL. So Icly we had no reason to be following eachother around, which is when I left.

Any suggestions, please?

DragonKnightsFX

First and foremost.... CE is two steps away from LE, so there are no Chaotic Evil Knights of Bane.

Quote:

Alignment Lawful Evil

however your question is not without merit, I would imagine it would be closer to C, or A if you added "how give your soul to the black hand small one" at the end of it.

banites I have seen tend to be rather blatant and wear their symbols proudly, even though some discresion is obviously a good idea.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Bane_%28deity%29

Quote:

Worshiper alignments: LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE

Seriously, ah heck!

Well anyway, I need some tips on how to play my brand new Lawful Evil knight of bane then!

How do I deal with helpful, genuinely nice people? Just ignore them?

DragonKnightsFX

one step rule...amia wiki <--

My answer?

Don't.

Bane's a god of Tyranny. He likely doesn't have time for rogue agents running around being evil for the sake of being evil. It'd be like making a Robin Hood PC devoted exclusively to Tyr. Yeah, you both share the same moral alignment, but your organizational alignment puts you largely at odds.

Glyph wrote:

one step rule...amia wiki <--

in PnP, one step rule actually only applies when talking about clerics, paladins(not them actually, always LG, their gods more like) and druids.

Maybe so but there are some gods who REAAALLLLY might not like it if you're more then one step off the alignments listed.

Also... considering if memory serves Bane hates Chaos... why is Chaotic Evil allowed as an alignment? (I might be wrong, haven't done much checking on Bane lore in a while)

"Thank you, hin. The Church of Bane has need of your medical services. We fight a constant war of attrition against those who want to exchange the cold comfort of tyrannical rule for slavish and insensible "freedom", where each man is at liberty to beset, injure, or kill you without retribution or justice. Under the Lord of Tyranny's rule, you may rejoice in the knowledge that you shall never be exploited, maimed, or murdered for any other reason than that you deserve to be."

"What is that? You would prefer to remain here in the Dale? Would you feel the same way if the entirety of your small hamlet were ablaze, a casualty of being on the wrong side in a war? I would never dream of committing such a heinous act myself, but the world is a terrifying place. Is it not better to be feared, than to be afraid? Think on it some, healer, and let not your natural gifts go to waste."

One thing I will mention and then promptly skitter away is that just because you are Evil (whether that is Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic) does not immediately imply you act in a mean or crass fashion. Evil can be polite. Evil can be genial. Evil, in fact, gets its way far more often when it doesn't lash out at everyone.

Evil who is healed by someone of unknown Other Alignment (who knows, they may also be Evil, helping out their fellow Cosmic Morality) can say Thank You without slipping toward Neutral or Good. For one, it's simply words, and two, why can't Evil be grateful and mean it even if they aren't lying to wax a better reputation for later exploitation? Evil is also a person, and while Alignments have tangible "taste", if you will, in Faerûn (Detect Alignment, Protection from Alignment, etc) and unless they are from a bloodline that has Evil "hardcoded" into them (such as infernal/demonic-blooded people) then your average Evil Human is still just a guy who does self and evil things. They may still be charismatic (the one that doesn't have anything to do with your CHA score) and friendly, they may even like other people and have interests and hobbies that have nothing to do with being Evil.

Why not thank some total stranger who rushed up to you and used their time and resources to do you a favor? There's nothing not-Evil about that. Hell, that just allowed you to get back into some Evil fight sooner, or to work a relationship with someone who might become an asset or resource for your Evil cause.

(Addendum: Much as the scenario Yossarin made above.)

But at the core of the question, I don't not believe that Evil = Being an ass.

Yossarin wrote:

"Thank you, hin. The Church of Bane has need of your medical services. We fight a constant war of attrition against those who want to exchange the cold comfort of tyrannical rule for slavish and insensible "freedom", where each man is at liberty to beset, injure, or kill you without retribution or justice. Under the Lord of Tyranny's rule, you may rejoice in the knowledge that you shall never be exploited, maimed, or murdered for any other reason than that you deserve to be."

"What is that? You would prefer to remain here in the Dale? Would you feel the same way if the entirety of your small hamlet were ablaze, a casualty of being on the wrong side in a war? I would never dream of committing such a heinous act myself, but the world is a terrifying place. Is it not better to be feared, than to be afraid? Think on it some, healer, and let not your natural gifts go to waste."

This is told to every young Hin child that has elder siblings that hate them *sage nod* Banites go BUMP-CLANK-BUMP-CLANK in the night...

Quote:

"Thank you, hin. The Church of Bane has need of your medical services. We fight a constant war of attrition against those who want to exchange the cold comfort of tyrannical rule for slavish and insensible "freedom", where each man is at liberty to beset, injure, or kill you without retribution or justice. Under the Lord of Tyranny's rule, you may rejoice in the knowledge that you shall never be exploited, maimed, or murdered for any other reason than that you deserve to be."

Perfect! Just what i was after, thank you very much!

The nwnwiki says that Chaotic Evil is included in Bane's available alignments though, is it an amian rule that you can' be CE?

It's an Amian supported rule for divine classes. Not sure how it's enforced, but it is probably frowned upon if you're too far away from your god's alignment and getting divine powers.

Now, for a regular ol' sword n board knight, there really is no problem. I was just voicing my own opinion. The thing is though, Tyranny is Bane's main portfolio, which kind of implies Evil and Law. As such, most "knights" in his name would probably model that. And even the word knight brings about connotations of order, codes, and hierarchy. But who's to say you can't have a crazy CE rebel of Bane that calls himself a knight, more power too you.

TeroSNS wrote:

Glyph wrote:

one step rule...amia wiki <--

in PnP, one step rule actually only applies when talking about clerics, paladins(not them actually, always LG, their gods more like) and druids.

nope. reason: lawful tempus knights would be laughable as much as a a good banite. if your more chaotic than lawful, -in this setting- you should choose something else, like cyric, or shar, or etc.

ed: not that you couldn't over time become less evil as a possibility, you just don't start as the opposite of your faith.

ed2: ..without an RP reason.

It's individual. Completly depends on your character.

Was the hin a member of some organization? Did he have any religious symbols visible?
Were the healing kits used? Would your character allow someone else to touch him?
Were his wounds grave? Was a hin really doing him a service? Was a hin aware that your knight is a Banite?
And many, many more questions only you can answer.

Yossarin gave the pretty good general idea of the response. Banites usually try to convert. But again, depends again on you, for not every Banite is trying to convert.

There is a pretty nice character development thread on Banite forums. Look for it. It could help both you and your character.

CE means you naturally tend toward random or impulsive activity or self-interest over that of the society or organization. I'm sure you could make it an interesting facet of your character's psychology that he is constantly having to sublimate his own urges in favour of Law. Maybe he'll end up vigorously promoting 'lawful' things that just happen to benefit him personally, or using his position to 'legitimately' claim benefits or privileges over his inferiors. So, as much as it irks him to have to 'go through channels' to get what he wants, he'll do it to further his own interests and look good in the eyes of Bane while at the same time not really believing that's the 'right' way to do things. And if maybe a knife happens to end up between some ribs now and then when nobody important is looking...

As long as your char has no classes that require a deity directly to obtain the powers.. you can have ANY alignment and faithfully worship the deity. Ofcourse.. don't expect the deity to respond back!

Same goes for races. I have a drow char who faithfully prays to Solonor, though he's yet to receive a reply or anything for it. There's a 1 step alignment rule for classes who require divine gifts, such as a cleric.. if a Cleric of Kelemvor ever became Chaotic Neutral, he'd get fallen and loose all his gifts because his own views and behavior are so far away from his deity's.

But again, for mundane classes, you can worship whoever you want.. God just won't accept you, and you'd probably become one of the false when you die. But you can do it! So I say make a Chaotic Evil character of Bane if you want, could be fun! Though I think you'll end up butting heads with the other banites, or whatever other servants of the god there is around Amia.

And of course as a cleric of Bane always remember to pick travel and plant as domains.
Apperently they erhmm,,travel alot around and erhmm,,likes potplants..

//sorry, under the belt I know//

I stand by my previous statement however like I said its not impossible, just...odd.

Quote:

Bane LE LE LN NE Destruction Evil War

And of course as a cleric of Bane always remember to pick travel and plant as domains.
Apperently they erhmm,,travel alot around and erhmm,,likes potplants..

Glyph wrote:

TeroSNS wrote:

Glyph wrote:

one step rule...amia wiki <--

in PnP, one step rule actually only applies when talking about clerics, paladins(not them actually, always LG, their gods more like) and druids.

nope. reason: lawful tempus knights would be laughable as much as a a good banite. if your more chaotic than lawful, -in this setting- you should choose something else, like cyric, or shar, or etc.

ed: not that you couldn't over time become less evil as a possibility, you just don't start as the opposite of your faith.

ed2: ..without an RP reason.

Where did I say that you can be total opposite? what I mean that you can basicly at least be two steps away as a non divine caster class, as long as the alignment doesn't contradict immensely of the god. I think amia has screw'd things up as the job system here insisting only one step to be able to pray to your god.

chaotic is the total opposite of law, same as good and evil.

as far as I have read researched and played the deity system is damned accurate.

ed: barring a few circumstances with draconic gods which have been since changed to better fit the lore as per the sourcebooks it came from.

A soldier with an inability to hold his tongue.

Typically banites handle this by punishment.

..or.. removing the tongue.

Or the soldier.

Dead wrote:

And of course as a cleric of Bane always remember to pick travel and plant as domains.
Apperently they erhmm,,travel alot around and erhmm,,likes potplants..

Hahahaha.

I'll just say it's odd.

I'm curious Dragon, why the specification of the word "Knight"? As I said, a mundane follower is pretty much free to call his own shots, but "knight" implies a code, and at times, working with others of his faith, an Order even. Is this PC just calling himself a knight or is he actually a knight in the sense that he is... well, a knight in the traditional meaning? Maybe a rogue knight-errant is what you're thinking.

I've always secretly wanted to play a Banite. Mostly just because I can understand why converting to their faith is such an attractive option (though this breaks down when you have a server where no one is afraid of anyone or anything).

Also, I think that "knight" for Dragon is a matter of the mind's eye, a visual cue.

Gravemaskin wrote:

But again, for mundane classes, you can worship whoever you want.. God just won't accept you, and you'd probably become one of the false when you die.

I dont see why you should end up False. Just because someone may have difficulty adhering to all details of the deity's code due to impulsivity issues doesnt mean that their devotion is any less fervent. I agree that it would cause problems as a divine class but not for a regular worshipper.

You'd end up False I'm guessing because even though you fervently pray to whatever god it is, that god really doesn't want anything to do with you and would probably let Kelemvor judge the character's soul before letting the him or her into it's realm.

A person can pray to Torm all they want, but if they constantly break the rules set forth for Torm's followers, Torm isn't gonna let him or her into Celestia.

If a character is whatever alignment they are and constantly pray to a certain god and adhere to that god's dogma, the character would slowly swing around to an alignment more in line with their chosen deity.

Pretty much. Otherwise bad guys could get away with anything they want and not suffer for it if they just prayed to the Triad constantly. Just pillage, steal, and murder on Toril, but make sure the only gods you pray to are the ones with the sparkley heaven.

It's sort of the whole Catholic vs Lutheran thing of whether you get into heaven based on your good works or by merit of your faith alone.

I always fancied that the gods give Kelemvor a checklist for the sake of convenience and say, "If in your review of the soul's life it accomplished these essential things, or some approximation thereof, then please send it to my domain. In some extreme cases, I may come to you and say so and so deserves to be in my domain in spite of something on or not on the checklist, but I'll try make sure you know about these exceptions in advance of your Judgment. In fact, since so many people wait about two rides waiting for your Judgment, do you think you could have a clerk on the Fugue Plane fax me an internal memo when a soul that worshipped me first arrives in the Fugue Plane? That way I have plenty of time to RE: so that your process isn't bogged down. Also, I'm out of copies of Soul Requisition Request Form 10-B and the Eminence Repository Factsheet, so do you think you could have someone run that over to my plane? Thanks. Also, sorry I'm behind on those TPS Reports, but I'm trying to catch up on some bestowed blessings so that I don't have to work on my sabbath..."

CE is listed among Bane's worshipers in Faiths & Avatars. That shows that not only can any alignment worship any god, but Chaotic Evil people actually make for a notable part of Bane's faithful. In fact, Bane is worshiped by all Neutral and Evil alignments, and his clergy is made up of LE, NE and CE (according to F&A). Now, 3e introduced the One-Step Rule (in F&P) which allows for LE, NE and LN clergy. That obviously doesn't retcon history and make all the CE priests mystically disappear (unless there were actual in-setting events relating to this). So in fact, by combining our sources we're left with Banites of all Evil and Neutral alignments as well as clergymen of LE, NE, CE and LN alignments.

As for being judged False, I think it's hubris to say anything definite about that. You won't know until you go meet your maker. Petitioners surely make gods more powerful or at least sustain them, though, so I find it likely they're quite loose with whom they accept. More importantly, alignment is a tiny factor in determining whether you've adhered to some core tenents of your faith. You can easily follow some key points in almost any god's dogma and still be almost any alignment, so the casual worshiper shouldn't have too difficult a time appeasing his patron. I see it like "Oh, you liked to fight? Yeah, go on over to Tempus' place. And you really trusted your luck when you gambled? Tymora's over there. Hey, a librarian! So you didn't bother to teach anyone and you actually hoarded some books to yourself, but that's OK because you liked to think. Oghma'll pick you up shortly." Etc.

But seriously people, ad fontes. You can't cite the Deity System or Amia Wiki to solve a disagreement, because they're just as secondary and suspect as any of our posts. Just like I hope nobody will refer to me later and say "Banites can be CE because Iron said so" but instead you'll go to the sources I used and see for yourself.

why would you want to play a chaotic evil follower of bane in the first place?
tyranny is not chaotic
civilization is not chaotic
law is not chaotic
having an angry fist holding light while pointing towards the heavens is not chaotic

follow gruumsh or talos if you wanna be chaotic, they're cooler anyway
or demon lords (dont think they have a large following)
like Baphomet; he's a huge minotaur with nipple rings and a big axe
or Graz'zt; have sex with everything and be evil

That's my major concern.

Sure you can, but what is making your PC stick to that religion in the first place? By being CE, though it's allowable, you're walking a tightrope to begin with a god who is very anal about people on his tightrope. It's like trying to be an Orthodox Jew when you really, really, really love ham and shellfish and if you had your choice, you would exclusively eat those things. There's nothing keeping you from switching to Reform Judaism(and being able to eat those things), except your will to adhere to a code. In the case of Bane and CE followers, Cyric and many other deities just have out the welcome mat and are saying "you can have your cake and eat it too." And what reason does a CE PC have to refuse that, if they don't like following anyone else rules in the first place?

So yeah, you can be a CE Banite, but over time I'd guess you'd either get with it(move closer to NE or LE) or get gone(either say this ain't for me, or someone else says it for you, possibly through offing you for not following orders). You can either live your life on pins and needles as a CE Banite and you might get into a favorable afterlife, or you can live your life at your leisure in the name of a CE god, and certainly get into a favorable afterlife. By favorable, I mean a not-melded-to-the-Wall.

I also suspect Bane and other Lawful gods don't really take to the idea of "Do whatever you want, I'm fine with it, as long as I like the end result." Rather, "You do what I say(or someone I've ordained to speak for me says) is correct, because I say it's correct."

Cerpin Taxt wrote:

or Graz'zt; have sex with everything and be evil

He's got QUITE the following on Amia then!

Xaviera wrote:

I dont see why you should end up False. Just because someone may have difficulty adhering to all details of the deity's code due to impulsivity issues doesnt mean that their devotion is any less fervent. I agree that it would cause problems as a divine class but not for a regular worshipper.

Actually it shows that I haven't played a Kelemvorite in over a year now >_> They'd end up as faithless and go directly to the wall.. which is just so much worse.

You become faithless if you fit one of the points below:
- Never worshiped a deity(believed in the gods but never worshiped).
- Rejected worship of any deity(atheism).
- Your god died and you never picked a new one.(This one is sort of funny.. because it means Qilué Veladorn technically became faithless and should be in the wall!)
- Your god has rejected you for whatever reason.

If you fit one of the above, there is only one judgement for you. To ze wall with green molded souls protruding from every inch and crack, slowly moving it around and expanding it so the city can increase.. and if you're REALLY REALLY lucky.. just before the wall ends up absorbing your broken soul after decades of slowly dissolving it.. a demon raid will come and yank it away.

So I'll be the Wall's advocate and say "Thank you for worshipping bane as CE!"

Uhm, aren't the False exactly those people who worshiped a god but got rejected due to heresy or lack of devotion? I don't have the books handy right now so I won't say for sure.

As for CE, Bane and Why: I'm not sure why people have so much trouble with understanding chaotic Banites and why Bane accepts them. Bane is perhaps a little different from some other gods, but certainly not in the direction people generally assume. Why would Bane, of all gods, be picky? If anything, he'd be more welcoming than others. He is the god of tyranny, the evil overlord who wants to rule the world. When a tyrant conquers a village, he doesn't interview the villagers to see if they share his hobbies and ideas about ethics and good government, and politely send away those who don't. He doesn't ask his subjects if they like being under the yoke of evil and absolute authority. No, he's a tyrant and he subjects everyone under his will and crushes those who continue to resist. That's what tyrants do. In my eyes, Bane's church isn't an elitist club of wicked gentlemen, it's a violent machine of suppression whose sole goal is the subjugation of nations. You don't ask your recruits if they're into order, you make them submit to it.

And why would a Chaotic Evil PC worship Bane? Same reason as anyone else. Fear, power, being on the winner's side, lack of choices, tradition, peer presure. I disagree with you here, Dark Immolation: religion isn't something you freely choose in the Realms. There's nothing keeping you from switching from Orthodox Judaism to Reform Judaism in the real world (apart from family and tradition). But if you live in Zhentil Keep and go tell your family minister of Bane that you'd like to join Cyric's church instead, I wager you'll get something else than a pat on the back. Why would anyone worship Bane if not for self-preservation or potential profit? That applies to LE PCs too; I doubt your average LE evil mastermind enjoys being a mindless tool under the rule of an LE tyrant any more than a CE lowlife does. No alignment explains a perverted inclination to submit to a tyrant's rule just for the love of it and your respect for law, there are almost always other reasons.

Either way: whatever our personal interpretations of Bane's dogma, the world designers clearly thought his church should be a diverse bunch because they specifically listed CN, N, LN, CE, NE and LE as existant (not just "theoretically possible") worshiper alignments. Claims to the contrary may be valid IC theology, but they're not accurate OOC description of the true state of the church.

All that said, I wouldn't necessarily play a CE Banite myself. The only concept I'd consider off the top of my head is a weasely coward of a thief or slum kid who has no choice or hope in life other than joining the powerful church of Bane and trying to get by within its framework. But I won't discourage anyone from trying: if it's unconventional and pisses people off, it's worth doing. It can be done, and its success depends on your understanding of the faith and your character's motivations. If you succeed, that's cool. If you fail, that's cool too: I can look down at you smugly and feel better about myself and my superior RP. It's win-win.

ainjyll wrote:

You'd end up False I'm guessing because even though you fervently pray to whatever god it is, that god really doesn't want anything to do with you and would probably let Kelemvor judge the character's soul before letting the him or her into it's realm.

A person can pray to Torm all they want, but if they constantly break the rules set forth for Torm's followers, Torm isn't gonna let him or her into Celestia.

Ah, but if the person believes in Bane's principles and sincerely worships him but just has a tiny bit of trouble with some of those niggly little details.... Sort of like Catholics and birth control, or Christians in general working on the Sabbath, or a Reform Jew eating pork. Even most of the Cathars waited until they were about to die before they became Perfecti and gave up sex.

And... everything Iron said. <3

IronAngel wrote:

Uhm, aren't the False exactly those people who worshiped a god but got rejected due to heresy or lack of devotion? I don't have the books handy right now so I won't say for sure.

The false are those that betray their god in some form or another. The faithless are those that are either faithless or don't get accepted by the deity they worship.

Like when a paladin/Cleric get's fallen?

Gravemaskin wrote:

The faithless are those that are either faithless or don't get accepted by the deity they worship.

or only give lip service to a god.

See?

This is exactly why the alignment system is really stupid. Not only is it annoying but it makes everyone who uses it ignorant as well.

Even after the OP's question was answered, and answered brilliantly by Yoss, everyone else is still arguing on the symantics of various alignments and ignoring the OP. It is also interesting how Yoss's responce is actually fitting with Banes dogma, unlike the the typical fear me or I PvP you to goo Banites running around. Clever is more scary and fun to have RP with.

I don't recall arguing anything about systematics.

I was just pointing out that CE PC's tend to do CE things, which like it or not, will have some friction with a LE deity and his clergy, even if the god allows CE. And as a result, given what CE entails, he might find an easier time in another clergy.

I haven't stated anything profound or controversial, it's a fact of pretty much every deity. LN and NG Tormtar might not always see eye to eye, or LG and CG Corellonites.

A good rule is - "Play a character who 'Happens' to be [Insert alignment], Not a [Insert Alignment] character. "

Dark Immolation wrote:

I was just pointing out that CE PC's tend to do CE things, which like it or not, will have some friction with a LE deity and his clergy, even if the god allows CE. And as a result, given what CE entails, he might find an easier time in another clergy.

I agree with you here. I just think you put too much weight on this. Alignment and the predictable ease of fitting in is probably not the primary basis of choosing a faith in most cases. It depends on where you live, who you know and what realistic options you have. It's not an eclectic New Age commune where you can read up on different ideas and pick and choose what you want, after all. Either you're committed to the church of Bane that holds power in your home town or you flee for your life to look for acceptance elsewhere, and pray the Cyricists don't kill you anyway for being ex-Banite.

So basically, "you need a good reason stemming from character background." But that's true for LE Banites just as well; anyone will need a good reason to justify worshiping a god like Bane (and technically, there should be a historical reason for every choice, but it's just blatantly obvious here).

DragonKnightsFX wrote:

I'm having difficulty on what to actually.. say and do?
The example today was:
Alexander the evil knight was walking along with severe injuries and then a small hin comes out of nowhere and heals him.
My options were:
A) "Uh.. thank you." (Not really evil sounding)
B) "Get off me you little b*****d!" (Evil and just un-needed)
C) "Come near me again and i'll cut you open!" (Unnecessary?)

The point i'm trying to make is, is there any difference between being a complete as* and being evil?

Also, the most auquard thing after that was when I had an evil party, that didn't talk or communicate to eachother because we were all SO EVIL. So Icly we had no reason to be following eachother around, which is when I left.

Any suggestions, please?

DragonKnightsFX

Hi,

I think what would you should be thinking about is "why" your character is evil: Is it because he never knew love? Did he fall on his head as a child? Did he get abused by his father? Is it because he serves a powerfull patron that means to rule the world with fear and to dominate all other dieties?

Let's say the Chaotic-Evil character has always been an outsider, he has no friends, no one who cares about him and all he ever has gotten from the world is shit. So here Alexander comes around walking with injuries and some friendly dude jumps up healing him. What you should be thinking now is how would a character with these psychological attributes would react to such sudden friendliness? Perhaps: *Schizofrenic Mindbubble: "Why.. Why is he helping me?.. Don't kid yourself Alex, no one has never been nice to you. He's probably sent by someone, he has reasons, it couldn't be out of kindness.. That's right, he thinks he's better then you.. He thinks he's above you, no one is.. I'll show him, just you wait.."*

And there after his reaction to being healed might be mistrust mixed with shame and perhaps some rude reply of how Alexander would have survived on his own, how the help was completely redundant. But still somewhere Alexander might be gratefull, but he would never admit that to even himself.

Or perhaps he'd get angry because his picture of an unfriendly world was suddenly shook by sudden genuine kindness which the character can't come up with a reason for, other then it being what it was, kindness. People don't like when their idea of the world gets turned around.

And for when traveling with a group, how would your character feel about that, of what interest could the other group members be to him, like my picture of chaotic-evil Alexander would probably discuss the idiocy of avarage people when at last finding people with and equal mind-set, "Living out their little lives, pretending to be happy, empty smiles.. Pathetic. And when you threaten their lives, they all piss their pants on the thought of losing the illussion they've so carefully built up. And before I kill them, you can see it in their eyes that they suddenly realize that their whole lives was for nothing, and then they die as pathetically as they lived.."

So don't stop with "My character is evil and mean!", think about why he is evil. And also, accept that you evil character is pathetic, almost all evil characters are. But it's so fun to play them

Let's switch from the Lawful/Chaotic axis over to the Good/Evil axis. Torm (LG) could have a LE follower, it's only 2 steps after all.

By the two-step rule, "Torm the True, patron of paladins and unswerving enemy of corruption and evil (1)" could have an evil follower. This just doesn't make sense.

1 Faiths and Pantheons p.74

Another thought - Just because you're evil doesn't mean you need to be rude. Sometimes it's more scary to be pointedly civil with a smile and a piercing stare.

Yossarin gave amazing examples.

One of my characters had a chat with a Banite. It was a civil chat about Bane and this characters devotion to Bane. It was creepy as all get-out to my character. Who hadn't been afraid before hand but sure was after. With no raised voices or name calling.

I would like to say that The Church of Bane accepts all those who accept Bane.

So come on down, and try your luck.

ShortSlasher wrote:

I would like to say that The Church of Bane accepts all those who accept Bane.

So come on down, and try your luck.

they still exist?

LetumLux wrote:

One thing I will mention and then promptly skitter away is that just because you are Evil (whether that is Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic) does not immediately imply you act in a mean or crass fashion. Evil can be polite. Evil can be genial. Evil, in fact, gets its way far more often when it doesn't lash out at everyone.

Evil who is healed by someone of unknown Other Alignment (who knows, they may also be Evil, helping out their fellow Cosmic Morality) can say Thank You without slipping toward Neutral or Good. For one, it's simply words, and two, why can't Evil be grateful and mean it even if they aren't lying to wax a better reputation for later exploitation? Evil is also a person, and while Alignments have tangible "taste", if you will, in Faerûn (Detect Alignment, Protection from Alignment, etc) and unless they are from a bloodline that has Evil "hardcoded" into them (such as infernal/demonic-blooded people) then your average Evil Human is still just a guy who does self and evil things. They may still be charismatic (the one that doesn't have anything to do with your CHA score) and friendly, they may even like other people and have interests and hobbies that have nothing to do with being Evil.

Why not thank some total stranger who rushed up to you and used their time and resources to do you a favor? There's nothing not-Evil about that. Hell, that just allowed you to get back into some Evil fight sooner, or to work a relationship with someone who might become an asset or resource for your Evil cause.

(Addendum: Much as the scenario Yossarin made above.)

But at the core of the question, I don't not believe that Evil = Being an ass.

this. maggot is evil but sometimes he seams... even nice. hes not, but you know, perceptions.

How to play a Chaotic Evil Knight of Bane.

Who is online