Hmm. Ach. That is right. Not sure how I forgot that. Probably because I've not used the Summon series in a while.
Welp, that's why this is discussion rather than improvement. x3
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| Thoughts on Gate https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=56350 |
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| Author: | Dark Immolation [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 0:57 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Thoughts on Gate |
I'm curious about the current feelings on Gate both on the player side and the Dev side. Specifically about it's duration vs the power of the summon, compared to Summon IX. I admit, my access to the spells is limited to a few different trials and having Gate on my current caster, as well as Summon IX on him perhaps 2 years ago. My feeling is that, like it is intended, the summon from Gate is significantly stronger than Summon IX. But I'm not entirely sure it is significant enough where it warrants its duration(2 rounds per level) when compared to Summon IX, which generally is a little bit weaker, but you can keep it out all day. Literally a 24(IC) hour duration. In terms of efficiency, once you add in the fact you can afford to buff Summon IX and not have it go poof in a matter minutes, and afford to heal it, it tends to shift it back in the favor of Summon IX, given Gate's duration. But again, I have a limited view of this. There are plenty of people more well versed in dev-ery than I am. I also realize perhaps last week or so that it was said planar summons are getting looked at, or something to that effect. Since this is more asking general opinions, maybe even suggestions, I'm putting it in GD rather than IA. Devs feel free to throw in your opinions, but there is little obligation to look at this in terms of things to change immediately. |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 1:08 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
I have nothing polite to say, so I won't. |
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| Author: | Glyph [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 1:19 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
summoning and planar binding are two entirely different components of magic that brings things to you, the latter being stronger generally for reasons I won't go into because its 1am and it requires digging out the complete arcana. |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 1:23 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
No, one is not necessarily inherently stronger than the other. The difference you're thinking of is between "Called" and "summoned". |
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| Author: | ShadowSoul89 [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 1:57 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
The reason that Gate is 2 rounds/level is indeed the because of the summons' overall power. In truth, 3rd tier Gate summons are the most powerful summons that anyone can get. They're excellent for sudden combat situations. |
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| Author: | Dark Immolation [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 2:08 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
And I'd be inclined to agree, but are they worth the duration? From what I've seen, until you get to 3rd tier, they're pretty much outweighed by Summon IX at any level. By the time you buff them at, at anything less than CL 27, you've burned half of the actual summon's time out. If I'm correct in thinking, this is supposed to be the case with the Planar Binding series, in that they all have a shorter duration that the 24 hours of the Summon I-IX, but are a little bit stronger. The only difference is that you go from Lesser Binding to Greater Binding all at 1 Turn per CL, then suddenly you're gimped into 2 rounds per CL with Gate. The duration really does make a big difference at higher levels, given what a caster has open to buff it with at that levels, and I'm not convinced from what I've seen that it evens out. That they could either have a longer duration at their current specs, or the same duration, but already come out "pre-buffed". I mean Slaad for instance in going to waste 2 rounds first casting Imp Invis then Chaos Spittle before it enters combat, in addition to whatever time you take to buff it. What I'm thinking is like how Frost Witches and such in Brog, when they spawn, have a cache of spells that spawn on them too. For Gate summons, it might be spells that the summoner would already be likely to put on them, though the actual spells might vary with the summon. From a lore perspective, if you're going to Call a creature, it would be in your best interested to Call one that's already prepared for battle or something. |
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| Author: | DerkDerkistan [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 2:13 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
The Summon I-IX are not 24 hours. They're turns per level too. |
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| Author: | Dark Immolation [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 2:16 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
Hmm. Ach. That is right. Not sure how I forgot that. Probably because I've not used the Summon series in a while. Welp, that's why this is discussion rather than improvement. x3 |
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| Author: | ShadowSoul89 [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 7:56 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
Dark Immolation wrote: From a lore perspective, if you're going to Call a creature, it would be in your best interested to Call one that's already prepared for battle or something. I wouldn't say that for a Planar Binding or Gate, no. The Planar spells are quite different from Summon Creature varieties. You don't have a particular summon 'forced' into your service (except for some less-than-often cases), but instead you're summoning forth a planar being and bartering for its services. They aren't usually pets or personal servants you summon on a whim. The more powerful the summon, the higher the price. It can also be said that more powerful planar beings aren't going to waste too much of their time working for mortals. On an semi-related note, I've been wanting a 'price' to be added on those spells for awhile now...  Now prices may not apply to the celestial summons, but I'm fairly certain they'd expect a good reason to be called to the material plane. Just sayin' |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 8:05 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
There used to be a 5k GP price tag. It was removed. |
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| Author: | Glyph [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 11:36 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
Quote: It can also be said that more powerful planar beings aren't going to waste too much of their time working for mortals. This is why you are supposed to cast circle against alignment before using gate >_> |
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| Author: | Silvarus [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 11:43 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
ShadowSoul89 wrote: Dark Immolation wrote: From a lore perspective, if you're going to Call a creature, it would be in your best interested to Call one that's already prepared for battle or something. I wouldn't say that for a Planar Binding or Gate, no. The Planar spells are quite different from Summon Creature varieties. You don't have a particular summon 'forced' into your service (except for some less-than-often cases), but instead you're summoning forth a planar being and bartering for its services. They aren't usually pets or personal servants you summon on a whim. The more powerful the summon, the higher the price. It can also be said that more powerful planar beings aren't going to waste too much of their time working for mortals. On an semi-related note, I've been wanting a 'price' to be added on those spells for awhile now... Now prices may not apply to the celestial summons, but I'm fairly certain they'd expect a good reason to be called to the material plane. Just sayin' In PnP you better have protection from alignment and can in theory summon any planar creature. Summoning a named outsider usually ends in your bloody death of course, since there is no way a mortal mage can force them to their will.  Speaking of which, in theory Gagis can be summoned via Gate as well... Funny thought, that. |
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| Author: | Herra Tutteri [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 13:34 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
As soon as I found out my cleric dragged yet another bloody mutant frog through the gate, I stopped using the Gate altogehter. |
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| Author: | Dwagin [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 14:28 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
Slaads are awesome. |
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| Author: | Glyph [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 14:38 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
it isn't always a mutant frog as you say, thanks to the DM staff, not to mention there is the option of reskining if your alignment is correct for your character but slaadi arn't. Quote: Gate [Duration: 2 Round / CL] This spell summons a powerful outsider to your side based on your alignment as follows: • Good: Planetar • Neutral: White Slaad • Evil: Balor Lord [Chaotic or Neutral alignment] • Evil: Pit Fiend [Lawful alignment] The power of the outsider increases at CL 22 and 27. would also like to say tormak was right about the summon/calling thing, what I meant by stronger in that case was me remembering that called planars -actually- die as compared to summons who just seam to go home so to speak, so they are in some respects somewhat harder to dismiss, but lack the power to return later. in technicality. if you really boil it down none are harder than any other, especially if you throw an alienist into the mix. however nwn mechanics lacks the variety of pnp and as such many a wizard will tell you they never took summon level anything and waited for the planar path. ed: A similar thing can be said about EDK and mummy dust, or in amia's case imho should be called something like Epic summoning rather than mummy dust..or something. the point being, the dragon is nearly always less resisiant to damage in the long run compared to from what i've seen, the construct option with marut the inevitable. feel free to prove me wrong cause prismatic dragons should be able to at least give the latter some pause. of course both have unique advantages and disadvantages, EDK moreso disadvantaged because of its size and being able to move it around. while i'm at the subject I would like to point out a semi bug, summoning a gate from a scroll does not require you to cast protection first nor does it if the gate spell comes from in my case at the time, a statue item. I am unsure if this is a bug because in default nwn the balor would MAUL you for forgetting to cast protection. |
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| Author: | PaladinOfSune [ Wed, Mar 09 2011, 17:50 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
That's not a bug. We don't use the Protection from Alignment thing. |
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| Author: | Mobile_Svensk [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 11:19 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
Sorry for ressurecting this topic - But i'd like to say that, perhaps we should pump the Duration of this summon into 2rounds/level or 3rounds/level. Because no matter what's done, and how much it's improved, all of the mummy dust summons, And summon monster 9 will be better, because you can buff them and keep them much longer. The only time i used this was when i was ambushed once. And then it was just a silly mistake to memorize the Gate spell. Perhaps if we did, The players could choose a summon depending on the situation. Mobs X demands my mummy dust, But mobs Y demands my gates summon, and perhaps Mobs Z requires the Summon IX Monster. Because face it - Gate is a cool spell, A spell that summons forth an Outsider of your chosen alignment. Just remember in baldur's gate 2; When you popped the Gate spell and this INSANE Demon/Devil popped out to go berserk unless you had Prot vs evil. |
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| Author: | Leggomi Eggolas [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 13:21 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
Very_Svensk wrote: ...pump the Duration of this summon into 2rounds/level or 3rounds/level.... Quote: Gate [Duration: 2 Round / CL] This spell summons a powerful outsider to your side based on your alignment as follows: • Good: Planetar • Neutral: White Slaad • Evil: Balor Lord [Chaotic or Neutral alignment] • Evil: Pit Fiend [Lawful alignment] The power of the outsider increases at CL 22 and 27. You're a bit late asking for that. That was changed a long time ago. |
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| Author: | Mobile_Svensk [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 13:24 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
So it's always been two rounds level? Christ, despite already having two rounds/level it lasts that short... perhaps it'll even need more. |
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| Author: | Lorak [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 16:12 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
As a level 29 wizard I can comfortably keep gate summons out, and fully buffed, an entire rest period. I almost never use summon IX anymore. |
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| Author: | Mobile_Svensk [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 16:13 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
...That's bullshit. 2Round/level on a level 29 = 58 Rounds = 5.8 Turns = 5 Minutes and 40 Seconds. |
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| Author: | Gravemaskin [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 17:01 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
Notice he said summons.. plural. That means he uses 3 gates per rest for a stronger summon than Summon IX with 1 use, likely needing an extra one since it's likely to die.. 2 rounds per level is perfectly valid and long enough. Pop a haste on yourself then summon the gate and haste it.. when the haste on you runs out, time for another gate. The only sucky part about it's short duration is that you can't really fully buff it each time unless you have a stupid amount of spells.. yet this is offset by the sheer power of the summon at the highest tier. It's better than a fully buffed Summon IX when it's unbuffed, and even more so if you haste it. As I see it, the epic summons should have their duration shafted a bit as well because people want power without having to think about it, and that's exactly what Turn per level summons are. Fire and forget. Gate forces you to think ahead for more power than any other non-epic spell summon that the caster classes can obtain. Besides the whining is just silly.. if my 12 wismod cleric can keep out his planetar and keep it buffed for an entire rest round + himself completely buffed with all the cleric cheese.. you should be able to do it with any other class as well. Especially since he had no +spellslot gear so he could fit in str/con/wis and +fort gear. |
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| Author: | Bjorn [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 17:04 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
Conjuration focus Svensk.. |
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| Author: | Mobile_Svensk [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 17:07 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
Bjorn wrote: Conjuration focus Svensk.. Wrong. Conjuration focus only affects Dragon summon, Afaik. Not Gate summon, as this debate is about. @ Grave - Buffing three summons per reset voids itself. It's as you say, You burn way to many spells. You could just pop a Mummy dust version and go all out/all day happy-cake with 1/3 of the spell used. The Gate should get it's duration upped, and Summon I-IX + Mummy dust should get their duration lowered. |
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| Author: | Bjorn [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 17:10 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
For mummy dust you have one focus for each form, check it out. Transmutation is for golem I believe.. and such. Also It works for summon 1-9. (conjuration that is) |
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| Author: | Glyph [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 17:42 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
mummy dust != gate != means not equal to. ie. conjure works for EDK and some, EMD variants. and summon 1-9, but not planar binding/gate. |
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| Author: | Dark Immolation [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 17:44 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
The Gate summon is of course a little stronger. That was one of the first observation/concession I made when I started this thread. Gate isn't sucky and Summon IX isn't brilliantly great. I just believe as it currently is, even with the summon being slightly better, the favor is still slanted towards Summon IX. Our actual method for balancing them(stronger summon/shorter time and weaker summon/longer time) is completely fine and right is what I think I'm saying at least. Just that it could afford some tweaking in the favor of Gate. Maybe it's completely even if you have just the right level and just the right playstyle, but from what I've tested IC giving a little tweak would make it slightly more viable, especially in the pre-lv27 levels. The tweak I suggested was a slightly longer duration(say 3 per cl rounds vs the current 2), or have the summons come out with a few buffs already on, so the summon can spend more of its time actually fighting. |
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| Author: | Mobile_Svensk [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 17:59 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
Dark Immolation wrote: The tweak I suggested was a slightly longer duration(say 3 per cl rounds vs the current 2), or have the summons come out with a few buffs already on, so the summon can spend more of its time actually fighting. I stand by this suggestion. Adding one more Round/CL will make it challenge the other summons. |
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| Author: | tsukasa1991 [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 19:37 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
i personally dont care, i prepare gate and not 9 for rp reasons. i wish it lasted longer but oh well. |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Fri, Mar 25 2011, 21:14 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Thoughts on Gate |
Very_Svensk wrote: Sorry for ressurecting this topic - But i'd like to say that, perhaps we should pump the Duration of this summon into 2rounds/level or 3rounds/level. Because no matter what's done, and how much it's improved, all of the mummy dust summons, And summon monster 9 will be better, because you can buff them and keep them much longer. The only time i used this was when i was ambushed once. And then it was just a silly mistake to memorize the Gate spell. Perhaps if we did, The players could choose a summon depending on the situation. Mobs X demands my mummy dust, But mobs Y demands my gates summon, and perhaps Mobs Z requires the Summon IX Monster. Because face it - Gate is a cool spell, A spell that summons forth an Outsider of your chosen alignment. Just remember in baldur's gate 2; When you popped the Gate spell and this INSANE Demon/Devil popped out to go berserk unless you had Prot vs evil. This didn't need reviving. |
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