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Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
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Author:  Murex [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 8:24 AM ]
Post subject:  Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
It seems perma-death isn't going to be implimented anytime soon, but I would like to share some ideas on making death more meaningful on Amia. Feel free to join in with your ideas if you have any, because I think Amia needs to take death more seriously.

I like the idea of perma-death if you had several lives to go through before oblivion, but I think people will still not like perma-death after living 50 lives or whatever, so I thought of some more ideas to get players to not be so reckless.

1. Fugue Plane maze- Make it an ordeal when trying to get out of the fugue plane by having it take time to actually get out. This can cut down on the L30 boss farmers respawning 10 times to kill a boss, and it will make characters unable to come back for instant PVP revenge and junk like that. Maybe with some slow traps with a high DC to make it more of a pain to get through.
2. More gold loss on death.
3. Con Damage after raise (-2 Con)
4. Up the price for raise dead scrolls (if possible).
5. Remove Raise Dead scrolls from all shops.
6. 24-hour timer for L30 characters after death.
7. Level loss for L30 characters after death (-1 level).

Going hard on L30 characters should be emphasized. I don't think there is much of a point in killing members of the opposing faction if nothing really happens. I'd prefer for my kill to mean something, and I would also like to take the death of my characters more seriously as well. Amia becomes a little boring when nothing is even close to permanent. I prefer my games to be a little more challanging than average, and infinate lives is a bit too much in my book. If perma-death doesn't sound like the way to go, at least do something so that death is more meaningful.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 9:10 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
1. Maze will become memorized and just a hassle more than a challenge after time.

2. Has been suggested multiple times. Dev team is likely already discussing it.

3-6. See #2

7. Level loss would be abusable.
Author:  Murex [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 9:43 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
The fugue maze is really just to take up time so that the character can't instantly respawn over and over carlessly.

How will the level loss be abused exactly?
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 9:43 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Murex wrote:
The fugue maze is really just to take up time so that the character can't instantly respawn over and over carlessly.

How will the level loss be abused exactly?


Gain level of RDD
Drop level of RDD
Keep STR / CON / CHA benefits
Repeat
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 9:48 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Nr - 5 is the only suggestion i like.

~Addendum~
Perhaps only one raise dead per player "Per reset", anything else requires a cleric?
I mean that you, as the player raising somebody, can only do it once due to reason X and factor Y that kicks in after reading to many of those scrolls.

RP reasons? Dunno, Kelemvor went nuts over all the adventurer's and decided to make it harder on you guys. Like the GS change just overnight modified the spell :wink:
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 9:49 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Oh, and Uncap gold and make banks!
Author:  Murex [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 9:51 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
The raise dead scrolls do seem pretty potent things to have. Leaving it up to clerics would fit the idea of the cleric class in my opinion.

Make banks but uncap gold? What's the point then?
Author:  hendrack [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 9:52 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
First define 'meaningful' with objective criteria, then we can speak of ideas. Your ideas have been thrown around numerous times and they are still not thought through.

1: Return to spot of death needs to be removed anyhow
2: Being discussed by the Dev team already
3: to what end?
4: only fucks with lowbies
5: ok
6: timer of what?
7: fine, but getting to 30 again isn't really troublesome, and what Svensk said about RDD

It has been said in other threads, meaningful death in faction PvP can not be enforced by the engine, it has to start with players.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 9:56 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Leaves only suggestion 5 to really debate then. I stand by my above suggestion to the raise dead scrolls!
Author:  Murex [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 10:06 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
hendrack wrote:
1: Return to spot of death needs to be removed anyhow
2: Being discussed by the Dev team already
3: to what end?
4: only [removed] with lowbies
5: ok
6: timer of what?
7: fine, but getting to 30 again isn't really troublesome, and what Svensk said about RDD


1. I agree that 'return to the where death occured' option is a bit lame, but that's a whole new idea.
3. A -2 to Con would make characters more careful.
4. If only low-level characters deal with it, then so be it. Option 5 would apply to all a bit more fairly.
5. Seems to be one of the better ideas.
6. Timer.
7. Okay, This isn't a useable idea. I'll scratch that one off.
Author:  hendrack [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 10:14 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
The whole thread can be scratched, since it has been discussed before so many times (even in the past weeks) and some of the stuff is discussed already by the dev team.
Author:  Murex [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 10:18 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
I haven't been on in a while, so excuse my absense. Is the removal of raise dead scrolls being discussed?
Author:  jimbono1 [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 10:27 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
The death system on "Come to LaLa Land" was basically when you die you instantly go to the fugue, and a corpse item was dropped where you died, which people could pick up and take to places to get raised. If you chose to respawn you lost some of your essence which reduced the amount of exp you gained unless you paid a fee. There was some other stuff too but that was years ago when i played there, and i never got to max level so no idea what happened then either.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 10:28 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
hendrack wrote:
The whole thread can be scratched, since it has been discussed before so many times (even in the past weeks) and some of the stuff is discussed already by the dev team.


Well true. And we -did- have major overhaul of the raise dead system already.
I vouch you, Hendrack.

Sorry Murex.
Author:  Murex [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 10:54 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
No problem.
Author:  Bob [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 11:26 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
I've a few questions regarding death actually.

From what I've noticed/seen, I'm under the impression that should a PC say, kill you and choose to destroy your corpse, you require a true rez. This means you need a cleric with the pre-requisites along with the diamonds.

Now, my questions are:

1) Is this enforced? By DMs consistently?

2) What happens if one doesn't have clerics to true rez them?
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 11:36 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Can't be enforced.

And it's up to your own imagination what happens if you don't have a cleric to TR you.
Author:  MoshingChris [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 12:09 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
I don't know how many times I need to repeat this.

If its not something that can be implemented because it requires discussion it belongs in General Discussion.
Author:  Bob [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 12:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Well the reason I ask is because I've read posts by DM/s demanding X amount of diamonds etc from someone casting a true rez and such. This leads me to think its enforced. What happens then when someone cant cough it up? Do they stay dead?

Now, in no way am I criticizing a DM enforcing this. In fact, I think its a step in the right direction as it gives death abit of meaning/drawback.

I was just wondering if there was a rule regarding it.
Author:  Uberuce [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 12:33 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Has anyone suggested death causing the loss* of one randomly chosen equipped or active item from the player's inventory?

*Loss could also mean broken beyond use but not beyond repair; in this less-harsh version, the affected item is replaced by a placeholder Broken Armour/Weapon/Other placeholder inventory item which on payment of DCs or equivalent RP-driven undertaking is restored.
Author:  Xaviera [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 14:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
All of these have been suggested previously.
Author:  ainjyll [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 14:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
I think that damn near every idea possible has been suggested and discussed to death by now. It's now in the hands of the DM's and the devs to decide if anything is needed, what exactly it will be and exactly how it will be implemented.
Author:  Selmak [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 16:44 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
It's impossible to take death seriously so long as it gets dealt so frequently, and there is an unlimited supply of raises/respawns. In order to succeed at making it a serious thing you've got to choke off the demand and supply for life and death, without making it unbearable to play the game.

I'm not going say, don't make another thread on this, but unless you've got an idea that meets those criteria it's bound to fail.
Author:  Dwagin [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 16:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
The easiest way of taking death seriously is to begin to take death seriously.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 17:00 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Dwagin wrote:
The easiest way of taking death seriously is to begin to take death seriously.


This cannot be said to many times.

Make death IMPORTANT. Try and permakill a char or two, see how it feels
Author:  Murex [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 19:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
A fugue plane maze was allready discussed? Really? Okay. Not much else to contribute then. I'm just wondering now if anyone opposes to making a change happen.

Dwagin wrote:
The easiest way of taking death seriously is to begin to take death seriously.


So somehow everyone will do as you say just because? It is better to have this enforced in some way so players don't throw away the lives of their character without worry. The best thing is to make everyone bound by the same rule with a change that makes death more like something to be avoided.
Author:  QuarterMonk [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 19:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
As much as I like the idea of everyone taking death seriously, let's be honest, it won't happen. There will always be a power-builder that throws his junk around, then when someone finally manages to kill him it's just.. "Oh, it's only 40,000 gold." Then poof to point of death with some weird excuse as to why they survived.
Author:  ButtersTFG [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 19:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
What about the corpse going to an eternal boundry while a dead npc plaecable of your character remains on the ground to be moved ect. The bodies would have to be able to be moved if raise dead scrolls were taken out i feel.. So you can carry your buddy to the city to ask the local priests for a raise. The maze thing? Meeh. Had that on another server.. and yes we did learn the route and would just sprint there in a matter of a min. Its kind of like the speedy quest.. The first time its wow. The second time its like.. Lets just get this over with.
Author:  hendrack [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 19:54 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
I suggested the corpse thing and NPC raises myself so many times. From the past responses (or lack there of) I don't think this feature will finds its way to Amia.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 20:01 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Someone give me one good reason to read this topic.
Author:  hendrack [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 20:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
There is none.
Author:  Selmak [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 20:16 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Murex wrote:
Dwagin wrote:
The easiest way of taking death seriously is to begin to take death seriously.


So somehow everyone will do as you say just because? It is better to have this enforced in some way so players don't throw away the lives of their character without worry. The best thing is to make everyone bound by the same rule with a change that makes death more like something to be avoided.


Introduce your characters to the concept of karma.

"Yes, I am a pretty violent sort of guy but if I go around killing people and burning their remains, I can expect the same kind of treatment. Ergo, I will not do that. At the very most I will drag the body away from the scene of the crime so they will not be discovered so easily."

To be fair, the moment you turn your back and leave the area those players may respawn or be raised in a flash by some metagamer. But then, you have the freedom to do the same thing when it's your turn. It's up to you whether or not you decide to honour a request to stay dead or unconscious until a reasonable amount of time has passed, but if you don't then you can't expect the same of anyone else.
Author:  Brown Blur [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 22:36 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Sadly, make Death in any way more 'inconvenient' for the person dying, and there will be at least a few players on here who will love 'inconveniencing' others even more than at present.....

Player 'outlook' and 'attitude' is the thing to change, not mechanics, but thats a subject for another thread....
Author:  serbiris [ Sun, Feb 27 2011, 23:26 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
I can't say I'm a fan of all raises coming from the hands of clerics. Sure, it's how they are in PnP, but that's because clerics do everything. I doubt it would change attitudes about death, because the path of least resistance is "make more of a powerful class". Granted, being a cleric doesn't stop you from being deaded, but there'd be increased demand for having clerics around, and one could make a killing off scribed scrolls and such (I think?).

It would be sort of like making it so that all portaling had to come via wizard/sorc PCs.
Author:  Murex [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 0:31 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
If raise dead scrolls can be scribed, then characters other than clerics can use them. Clerics won't be more powerful- in fact, they will be less powerful if they spend all their slots on those levels for reserecting dead party members. They will just be more cleric-like.

The fugue maze idea is supposed to just be a pain in the ass/time waster and not meant to be a 'fun thing' to deal with.
Author:  Selmak [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 0:38 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
There isn't a lot of difference though between having to wait five minutes to return to life and home (or the spot where you died, if you're feeling brave) and having to go through a maze to get back. Plus, some classes can run faster than others, you know. ;)
Author:  Murex [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 0:43 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Selmak wrote:
There isn't a lot of difference though between having to wait five minutes to return to life and home (or the spot where you died, if you're feeling brave) and having to go through a maze to get back. Plus, some classes can run faster than others, you know. ;)


Good point. I guess that boils it down to the No raise dead scrolls in shops idea.

I guess everything I wanted to say in this thread has been said. The results are in.
Author:  ainjyll [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 1:24 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Personally, I really like the negative CON idea. However, it would have to be somewhat limited to keep lowbies from getting ganked and being screwed for however long the negative CON lasts. Perhaps if it only kicked in once a character reached epic levels?

I'm also a huge fan of uncapping gold loss. The best way to hurt someone is through their wallet and if dying cost you a flat 15% (or whatever amount) per death, it may just make people think twice before entering into PvP. Yeah, you've got 3 mil in gold, but one death will cost you a good chunk of that hoard. Though, I think this idea would do wonders for PvM as well. Making people be a little more sure of what they're doing before heading out to hunt... hopefully making them gather a party in the hopes of having a better chance of not dying.
Author:  Selmak [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 2:25 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
An alternative to the gold penalty on respawn would be to issue a promissory note on respawn, which is for a fixed amount depending on your level. When this happens, you will only be able to access basic temple services and basic healing supplies until you pay off your debt. You can pay gold directly, or you can barter items against your debt.

This does not punish the rich any more than the poor of course, but it closes the loophole of buying lots of stuff to use up the gold and make a gold penalty useless.
Author:  ainjyll [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 4:53 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Selmak wrote:
An alternative to the gold penalty on respawn would be to issue a promissory note on respawn, which is for a fixed amount depending on your level. When this happens, you will only be able to access basic temple services and basic healing supplies until you pay off your debt. You can pay gold directly, or you can barter items against your debt.

This does not punish the rich any more than the poor of course, but it closes the loophole of buying lots of stuff to use up the gold and make a gold penalty useless.


Cha-ching! Sounds like a winner to me.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 6:18 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
And what the devil is so IC about that? Even less than respawning. Congrats, you just made repsawning in character. "Uh yeah I got this note from the Fugue and no one win the world will deal with my until I pay off my supernatural debt."

WHAT?
Author:  DerkDerkistan [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 6:45 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
I agree with the emo elitist tordek.
Author:  Selmak [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 6:54 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
You owe money to whomever dragged your body back to a priest and had you raised. The higher the level, the more dangerous the dragging is likely to be, the more money they want off you. Arguably, some merchants might sell stuff to you despite your debt problem, either because they haven't heard about it or because they don't care so long as they're taking your gold. So long as the player is blocked from the most convenient places to buy and sell, they will have a motivation to pay off their debt.

Have to give the PC the promissory note (whether it's an actual item or just a persistent variable and journal entry) when they push respawn however, otherwise they could log out of the Fugue and not get one.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 8:16 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
Sounds like too much work and an untenable IC explanation for a complicated necessary penalty. I see no reason why suddenly there are mysterious NPC saviors who carge ngold in the form of IOUS that every merchant in Faerun magically knows about and will refuse you service until you pay money to some shadowy figure or whatever. It's silly. Stop trying to make respawn in character. It can't be.
Author:  DerkDerkistan [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 9:03 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
I got it. Remove the "Respawn" button and the "Exit Game" button. Make it all IC.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 9:19 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
I don't think you quite got the gist of my post.
Author:  DerkDerkistan [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 9:38 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
I did. My post was actually not serious. Spam, even. I already said I agree with you on that point. 6 posts up now.
Author:  Kudark [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 13:23 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
*Crow steps between the Elves*
"Enough you two, I have two hungry wolves at my side, do not make me release them."

:P
Author:  ainjyll [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 14:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
TormakSaber wrote:
Sounds like too much work and an untenable IC explanation for a complicated necessary penalty. I see no reason why suddenly there are mysterious NPC saviors who carge ngold in the form of IOUS that every merchant in Faerun magically knows about and will refuse you service until you pay money to some shadowy figure or whatever. It's silly. Stop trying to make respawn in character. It can't be.


If you reverse your sentence order, you'll kind of get my thinking.

Respawning isn't really IC, in so much that you pretty much have to come up with a very thin IC reason for it happening and it usually involves some shadowy and mysterious NPC. So, why should there be a solid IC reason for there to be a "promissory note"? It wouldn't be the first time in Amian history where all of the sudden things just were the way they were because that's the way they were.
Author:  Strawberry Stallion [ Mon, Feb 28 2011, 15:11 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Not quite Perma-Death Ideas
It's fine how it is. If you must do just increase the money penalty for higher levels as previously stated.
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