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Jan Busta

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 9:40 AM

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Joined: 30 Oct 2006

I remember years ago that there was discussion on the boards about nerfing undeath's eternal foe. In my memory, the spell was changed. I'ev started playing here again after a long break and can see no reference to it in the modification notes about spells. Is it currently modified, or does it deliver what it says on the package, the several immunities and the AC bonus?

Thanks in advance, and apologies if I'm being blind and have somehow missed it in the list.

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DerkDerkistan

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 9:51 AM

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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth

I know with the 1.69 update, the AC boost was changed from Dodge to Deflection. That is a huge nerf.

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Dramatic_Prince

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 10:00 AM

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Joined: 11 Sep 2008

Yes, making it one of the more useless spells. It's just mass NEP but rounds/level.

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Herra Tutteri

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 10:31 AM

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Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Location: Vaasa, Finland

Ayup, total crap these days. We could nerf it to make nice multicolour flashes so it would feel itself useful again. Poor UEF.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 10:37 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

So it's not really Undeath's Eternal Foe now is it?

More like. Undeaths annoying badger.

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Jan Busta

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 11:07 AM

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Joined: 30 Oct 2006

Hookay, thanks for that.

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Dramatic_Prince

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 11:21 AM

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Joined: 11 Sep 2008

Herra Tutteri wrote:

Ayup, total crap these days. We could nerf it to make nice multicolour flashes so it would feel itself useful again. Poor UEF.

Or you could give it a boost like add 2d6 divine vs undead for the whole party and make it last turns/caster level.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 11:23 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Or you could make that divine damage vs undead even higher, and make it a single cast spell on a single enemy, instead of an on hit for the whole party.

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Dramatic_Prince

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 11:27 AM

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Joined: 11 Sep 2008

How high are we talking? 6d6 divine?

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 11:29 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

High enough to make it more like it's name. Undeath's Eternal Foe. I imagine any such choices on damage would be best made by the balance team. Should they decide that the spell needs changing. Think it's just up to the players to suggest applications, not numbers.

Anyway if your serious about potential change. Post it up in the Improving Amia section.

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Dramatic_Prince

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 11:36 AM

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Joined: 11 Sep 2008

Request topic move to IA then, if TS has no objections.

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DerkDerkistan

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 12:08 PM

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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Earth

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Or you could make that divine damage vs undead even higher, and make it a single cast spell on a single enemy, instead of an on hit for the whole party.

So a weaker, level 9 version of Undeath to Death?

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HellScourge

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 13:04 PM

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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1

I'd stick with the +xdx damage on hit for all party members, plus NEG.

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Uncle-Opustus

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 14:40 PM

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Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland

Oh dear gawdz, I think we've got BW covering that. If we were to tweak the spell, I'd rather take a spell nerfing the undead.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 14:48 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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Spoken like a true kelly!

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My Sovereign

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 15:03 PM

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Joined: 19 Sep 2010

Are we really trying to make clerics even more OP?

*Slaps all of you*

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 15:05 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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Haven't you noticed the recent nerf, Man?

Herra Tutteri

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 15:29 PM

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Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Location: Vaasa, Finland

My Sovereign wrote:

Are we really trying to make clerics even more OP?

*Slaps all of you*

Quiet, you ignorant cuckoo clock! Quiet, I say!

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Nysor

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 16:09 PM

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Joined: 03 Oct 2008
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Make Sun domain clerics have super Undead killing capabilities! Oh, wait. Sunbeam

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 16:29 PM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Just go ahead and make UEF give the cleric Bless Weapon on their equiped.

Maybe 1d6 divine to the rest in party, stackable with FW just like Bless Weapon.

Undead are already pwned up @$$ when it comes to divine classes in PvM. It's not like there's much of a balance issue there, but it does make the spell have more teeth against undead.

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hendrack

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 16:40 PM

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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna

I can dig mass NEP, but mass divine dmg? No. Get a pally. Read the description of the spell, it gives you immunity to negative effects and some AC. Do clerics really need another income of damage, or 2d6 more damage for the whole party? It is a balance issue.

Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 16:54 PM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Damage to -undead-.

2d6 for the caster. 1d6 for everyone else. At rounds per level. To a non-PC race that is immune to criticals.

And descriptions don't matter for shit. It's what we as a sever deem we want to do with it or have it do. That doesn't even hold sway here, because more than a few of Amia's spells have been changed from their original description, not even to include the BoT.

Edit:
And what exactly do you mean by you can dig mass NEP? Because that's what it already is, in rounds/level. I thought the point was to bolster the spell, not make it even more redundant that it already is.

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hendrack

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 17:02 PM

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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna

I know, damage to undead, whatever the amount, I still say: no.
Mass NEP in turns and the other immunity stuff.

Bravo21

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 17:09 PM

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Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee

Very_Svensk wrote:

Haven't you noticed the recent nerf, Man?

What nerf? Last I checked, clerics can still buff to a higher AB and AC than a pure fighter class and have spells left over to KD, kill, and maim large swaths of enemies.

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 17:15 PM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

hendrack wrote:

I know, damage to undead, whatever the amount, I still say: no.
Mass NEP in turns and the other immunity stuff.

But why, I suppose is the better question.

I mean if a spell's going to be called Undeath's Eternal Foe, doesn't it make sense that it would actually have something to do with screwing Undead? Especially as a lv 9 divine spell...?

I certainly don't "dig" it only being a Mass NEP, even as turn-based. For several reasons. Firstly, it's redundant. And the argument that "when you stack it with lower spells-" doesn't even apply here because it's giving the same exact thing as the lower spells. Secondly, it seems like that's just appealing to melee-clerics who want to save lower slots for the melee spells that most clerics already whore anyway. Which should not be the point of changing the spell. I thought and hoped we were moving away from that stuff after the changes to DP. It's a caster class, dammit, so if anything, make the spell worth casting.

Bless Weapon to Cleric and bonus vs undead to party isn't breaking balance or hurting anyone but the Undead that already get throttled by divine classes to begin with. But it does make the spell more viable, IMO. But maybe not. Whatever we do, if anything though, let's please just not make this a bone-throw to the cliche melee-cleric and actually show caster clerics some love with what should be a crowning-achievement of a spell. Especially considering how tied the class is to undead, whether it is vs them or in their favor. Perhaps have for Good & Neutral clerics it turn into super-pwn undead and for Evil clerics it do something super-empowering to undead. or even involve the Death Domains, just as long as its not a freakin' slot-opener for the mess that's already running about.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 17:18 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

You gotta realise that there's deities that doesn't approve of bless weapon on clerics. Velsharoon for instance?

Bless weapon similar spells are for paladins.. (And maybe druids). Making it turn based is probably the most realistic suggestion.

Edit - Bravo21. I cba to respond to you. Just read the Patch note in the announcement section. ><

Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 17:23 PM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

There are certain deities that do not approve of many different spells. Lathander and undead summoning for instance. What does that matter to modifying a spell? Nothing. The cleric of that deity just doesn't use that spell. Just like a Illmatari cleric isn't use Contagion(for obvious reasons), a Vesharoon cleric isn't going to use a spell called Undeath's Eternal Foe. Point moot. Nothing to realize.

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hendrack

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 17:43 PM

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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna

Why because I think clerics don't need additional damage, because if you want divine damage in the party you get a pally, because Manor is already easy with a full party. Plus clerics don't need any help in farming undead epic bosses.

Dramatic_Prince

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 17:55 PM

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Joined: 11 Sep 2008

Okay how about +4 dodge AC vs undead, if it's even possible.

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Uncle-Opustus

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 18:00 PM

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Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland

Besides, more damage is boring like your mums. As I said, I'd much rather get something more colourful in case something was done to the spell. Something like a non-save Slow to all undead in reach, anything with nerfing effects, really.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 18:02 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

Confusion!

Nekhy

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 18:07 PM

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Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam

Make all undead in the area dance Macarena? Also usable against PC palemasters!

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 18:08 PM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Nah.

Micheal Jackson Zombies *nods*

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jimbono1

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 18:19 PM

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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England

What about Mass + AC vs Undead, like.. +5 or something, instead of the +4 Deflection?

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 18:22 PM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

I'm more partial to the hindering undead thing. The NEP is fine enough, but the real merit of the spell should come from making any undead around you have a seriously bad day. [removed] just more AC for clerics, that's not making the spell special at all, even if its dodge. Not like they need it anyway. What they need are spells that do serious magical effects, not just make them more tanky.

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hendrack

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 18:32 PM

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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna

I ask in return: why? There are many useless spells both divine and arcane, why do you feel this particular need to buff it?

Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 18:54 PM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

If you knew me, you'd know that I have suggestions for most of the spells that are considered lackluster. The devs have seen my suggestions of dhoom.

But for this one in particular, it stems back to what I said in the Divine Power thread. I believe we should have an interest in making clerics more viable as casters, not merely self-buffing meleers that occasionally buff the party. While there are plenty of fine spells that go unused as well in the upper tier of cleric spells, there are some that are simply not used because they're not useful. Thus making holy-mc-tankenstein look a lot more tasty than anything remotely centered around the class as a caster.

This particular spell is the lv 9 spell of a divine class, that as I said before, is pretty tied to undead, and the spell certainly should be, if you go by the name. In the interest of giving more options, and providing for more variety, both in builds, rp, and function, I feel this spell is one of the handful that deserves a bump. Preferably not in the direction of helping melee clerics(who already do just fine and don't use higher spells anyway), but in that of the caster side of the class.

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hendrack

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 18:58 PM

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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna

Clerics are viable casters. Even my caster cleric with 28 levels of cleric didn't suck in melee.

Nekhy

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 19:01 PM

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Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam

Nothing wrong with cleric power level. Even I can make one that can stand her own in PvP, let alone PvM.

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Blackdragon12121

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 20:27 PM

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Joined: 12 Jun 2006

Leave the spells as is. Its all balanced.

Selmak

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 20:34 PM

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Joined: 17 Dec 2004

You could add a Mass Doom vs Undead to the spell, that wouldn't be unbalanced.

Yeah I know, undead are immune to Mind-Affecting. Bummer.

TormakSaber

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 21:19 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

They're immune to mind affecting but you can apply specific effects regardless via scripting. It's how Turning works.

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Selmak

Posted: Wed, Feb 02 2011, 22:34 PM

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Joined: 17 Dec 2004

I know. It's just not Doom if you're not crushing their spirit.

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