AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I'm sure I read somewhere about some new goodies for assassins, but I can't find it now. Could someone point me in the right direction, or set me right on this, please?

It would really help it the things on the side bar were updated and this kind of post would not happen. I can't do it because well I have absolutely no clue how and have no authority. Please update the sidebar?

I agree, it's very frustrating that these changes aren't posted anywhere easily accessible.

Here's the quote from disco with the changes (at least the bg ones are in game for sure):

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Yes, I did. I'll add them to the module's shop. I'll also add a level up script so people can test the class changes. These are, in short:

Assassin gets the following feats:

Feat: True Strike
Description: This feat functions like the spell of the same name, giving the attacker a +20 bonus to their attack rolls for nine seconds.
Gained At: Assassin level 3. Granted automatically.

Feat: Fox's Cunning
Description: See above
Gained At: Assassin Level 4. Granted Automatically.

Feat: Cat's Grace
Description: See above
Gained At: Assassin Level 6, automatically.

Feat: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Description: See above
Gained At: Assassin Level 8, Granted Automatically

Blackguard gets the following feats:

Feat: Eagle's Splendor
Description: See above
Gained At: Blackguard Level 4, Automatically

Feat: Magic Circle Vs. Good
Description: See above
Gained At: Blackguard level 7, automatically

Feat: Divine Favor
Description: See above
Gained At: Blackguard level 10, automatically

Caster levels are swapped for Assassin/BG levels.

DD gets the following feats:

Resist Poison at level 5
Resist Disease at level 10
The option to take Perfect Health (Com 25+ required) from level 10

Druid gets Magic Weapon, Flame Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon in their spellbook

All casting classes get empty spells in their list. They only show VFX and do nothing. I can use those for DC spells that really act like spells.

The monk/SD/RDD nerfs do not need LETO anymore.

Anyway, please test all of this.

The assassin changes I assume didi is refering to is some still under construction, we're trying to iron out the last details before it can be released. The reason not more is unveiled is because well things may very well change drastically if something turns up.

sidebar cathegory would be fantastic. im always lurking for topics to see what the new hak brings.

Chris just made it pretty clear it's not updated anywhere, sidebar or otherwise, because it's not implemented yet.

Thanks for the info, I'll keep a look out for it coming in.

I have put the changes I mentioned earlier in the sidebar page.

Thank you Disco. Who new a chicken could be so epicly awesome. . . .or is it a rooster?

Ya know what would be even more awesome???

If you also updated the spells and summons

Yups, but I have no clue what they do so that would be a rather unreliable update.

Nekhy wrote:

Folks, if you wanna start mudwrestling do it elsewhere. Keep this topic easy to read for the people who are actually working on possible fixes etc.

Obligatory mudwrestling topic :mrgreen:

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This kit contains the various tools and liquids needed for a skilled assassin to perform and execute her special underhanded techniques. Every last bit of this equipment seem engineered towards a single minded purpose; killing it's target as efficiently as possible. As the assassin's skill progresses, so does the complexity of her attacks and techniques.

//OOC Note: To use these techniques, simply use the kit and select which one to use. All of these abilities have a cooldown of 1 turn once a target has been hit by this (saving throw rolled, not failed save VS effect) before another attempt can be made. The cooldown is universal and will persist for 1 turn even if you change which ability to use. Note that you do not have to reapply it after each use, the ability will be activated and on your weapons for 1 Turn per Assassin level.//

Braining Blow (Stun) (2 rounds, will)
Head injuries are especially traumatic, and the Assassin knows this. Heavy, blunt force dealt by a pommel or leaden arrow can temporarily stun a foe, leaving them vulnerable to a follow-up strike.

Shrill Strike (Deafness) (Turn/assassin, fort)
The importance of the sense of hearing in combat is not lost on the Assassin. An attack upon the auditory organs leaves the ears of the Assassin's foe ringing painfully.

Beshaba's Favor (-d4 all stats) (supernatural permanent, doesn’t stack, will)
The Assassin becomes adept at turning disadvantage to advantage, weakness into strength, bad luck into blessed fortune. Provided, that this misfortune falls upon the Assassin's victim.

Stalker's Throat-Dart (Silence) (1 round/ assassin, fort)
Landing a blow to the throat is one of the most difficult attacks an Assassin can make. By no chance, it is also one of the most rewarding.

Induce Amaurosis (Blindness) (1 round/assassin, fort)
The Assassin knows that something as innocuous as a culinary spice can have more malign uses. Pepper, thrown into the eyes of the foe in the heat of battle, leaves them a bit burned.

Blade of Terror (Paralysis) (1 round/assassin, will save to counter)
The appalling viciousness of the Assassin's assault cows the target into submission. The assassin may make a death-attack that causes overwhelming fear to the target of this ability.

Bloodlet (Leveldrain) (supernatrual permanent stacks, fort)
The Carotid and Femoral artery are prime targets for a cutting or piercing strike. An accurate slice can cause the most extreme case of profuse bleeding: untreated, such a strike is as good as a death-sentence.

Kneecapper's Knife (Knockdown) (Rounds/3Assassin, reflex)
The legs are a promising, if difficult to hit, target. They are often more lightly armored than the torso, as even the most rigid plate armor has many joints and thin parts in its metal.

Murder (Death, death ward ignored, fort)
The most valuable and feared tool at the Assassin's disposal is not their famed agility or skill with blade or bow, but their knowledge of anatomy and flagrant disregard for the niceties of honorable combat. This attack leaves nothing about the Assassin's motives to question. A feint, a flash of steel from the shadows, or a careful shot: a strike made with the intent to bring their target down instantly, no matter the cost.

I stand by the point that, for all the scripting and work that was put into this, it does little to nothing to improve the class. It adopts some of the same flaws as Death Attack in requiring so much INT and being incredibly rare to take effect. Looking at these flaws inherent to Death Attack, and how people rarely made an Assassin before except for flavor, it seems counter-productive to me to increase the pot of gold at the end of the grey rainbow, so to speak.

I appreciate the time that was put into scripting this, and that's why I'm saying this. The class needed more appeal, or more power, and I don't see it coming from more INT-related abilities because it follows the same discouraging traits as Death Attack. With a cooldown timer, I don't see what's wrong with just changing the ability it uses for DC to DEX: the DC would be comparable to a DC caster but nowhere as spammable, and Murder would need a toning down (a suggestion is to make it work like Harm). The tools are nice as they are, and a great addition, but the DC keeps Assassins in the "fishing for 1" category as a class, which they already were.

It's not going to happen. Deal with it.

I honestly don't get why people shy so much away from assassins..

Low requirement to become one if you're evil
They get UMD, Tumble and all other skills that rogues get except persuade and parry
No evasion so that sucks I guess
No Multiclass penalty
Better sneak attack than rogues
Self cast improved invis + a few other fun spells.

Honestly, Assassins are a better pick than rogues in my eyes since you can get improved evasion on gear anyway for some chars, especially since they get the self buffs that help and aid any melee character.

All of my evil chars, save one, have had assassin levels to one degree or another.

Now with the improved pick of abilities they have recently gotten thanks to Jehran, they are a quite decent class to multiclass into, even if you're aiming for a high amount of assassin levels.

edit:
Not to mention that the RP venues that open up for an assassin! They can be pretty damn awesome if done right..

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It's not going to happen. Deal with it.

I don't understand why reasoned criticism needs to be met repeatedly with this kind of statement which implies the critic is just complaining. I'm not petitioning for them to change, I've been doing fine without them being any different than standard. I meant, by my post, that if the goal of these changes was to make assassins more appealing than they were with just Death Attack + spells, it probably won't work because they follow the same trend of what turns people off to Assassins in the first place.

As for Gravemaskin: that argument ignores any of the rogue abilities missed out on. You say Death Attack is better than Sneak Attack - in very rare circumstances and when someone rolls a 1, it is, but it's not incentive to go Assassin just for that. You're missing Evasion or an item slot (for a very rare and expensive item, or gimping your AC), you get less skill points, a greatly reduced selection of epic feats, which come every 4 levels, and the lack of bonus feats which can also be taken in epic levels. It goes on and on, and there are reasons to take both classes, but that's not a counter argument to what I'm saying.

Zinovy wrote:

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It's not going to happen. Deal with it.

I don't understand why reasoned criticism needs to be met repeatedly with this kind of statement which implies the critic is just complaining.

Yes please please stop this ... Behaviour, Tormak. ><

Give a valid argumentation of why, And a reasoning behind, Everything else is just moot. New players need to hear it the first time, it doesn't matter if old players have heard it 10 times.

Gravemaskin wrote:

I honestly don't get why people shy so much away from assassins..

In order to become an Assassin though, you need Hide+MS ranks. So you're probably going to take at least five levels in a class which has those as class skills.

The thing about base classes is that they provide a lot of the things a growing character needs. So there is this temptation to stick to base classes rather than investing in prestige classes. An Assassin who started out as a Rogue misses out on 4 skill points per level when they progress as an Assassin. If they started out a Bard, they don't get access to higher level spells. If they started as a Monk, they need to sacrifice some of their ability points to Wisdom if they want to gain more AC, and they don't get that bonus AC unless they're in cloth armour or robes. About the only class with Hide and MS which doesn't really need to sacrifice anything is Ranger.

Selmak wrote:

Gravemaskin wrote:

I honestly don't get why people shy so much away from assassins..

In order to become an Assassin though, you need Hide+MS ranks. So you're probably going to take at least five levels in a class which has those as class skills.

The thing about base classes is that they provide a lot of the things a growing character needs. So there is this temptation to stick to base classes rather than investing in prestige classes. An Assassin who started out as a Rogue misses out on 4 skill points per level when they progress as an Assassin. If they started out a Bard, they don't get access to higher level spells. If they started as a Monk, they need to sacrifice some of their ability points to Wisdom if they want to gain more AC, and they don't get that bonus AC unless they're in cloth armour or robes. About the only class with Hide and MS which doesn't really need to sacrifice anything is Ranger.

And ranger qualifies for a lot of the good stuff. Like Camouflage or Those fancy Lone ranger rings. (And the mystery Druir shoppe)

If you want to give the assassin abilities a little more bite, you don't have to raise the DC somehow. You just have to allow for a chance of some effect even if the target passes their Fortitude check. For example, Induce Amaurosis could reduce the target's Spot check temporarily (because even if they aren't blind, they're probably still squinting through tears). Obviously that's only useful to an Assassin if they can run away and hide. Kneecapper's Knife, similarly, could slow your target's movement speed if it can't knock them down.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Zinovy wrote:

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It's not going to happen. Deal with it.

I don't understand why reasoned criticism needs to be met repeatedly with this kind of statement which implies the critic is just complaining.

Yes please please stop this ... Behaviour, Tormak. ><

Give a valid argumentation of why, And a reasoning behind, Everything else is just moot.

I'll give you a well explained reason as to the nature of why. Let's look at the PnP description of Death attack:

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If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.

If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.

The execution of a death attack is NOT Based in the agility or dexterous finesse of your attack. It is based in the observation and study of your target, using the knowledge you have gathered from that and applying it in a manner that exploits that specific target's vulnerable spots. This is why the DC is based in intelligence, just as lore is for instance. Or spellcraft. It is based in the study, observation and understanding of something and then APPLYING it. It is not simply an agile man's extremely potent attack, this is the careful study done from an academic or keen mind. Thus it is based on intelligence, and not dexterity.

And the fort save VS death part of the death attack there, also explains why murder was added as it was(and it was placed up high for obvious balance reasons)

Now a delayed study mechanic like thing was considered briefly as a replacement for death attack, but since such would likely end up require alot of scripts that fire often to make sure you are always studying your target, not to mention applied in a way that does NOT force you to break stealth or hide, it is not something that is possible to do on a server such as Amia currently.

In short: Death attack itself is actually BETTER in NWN than it is in PnP, and because of the nature behind the attack it is based on your information gathering abilities and the know-how on how to apply this knowledge into the world. Both of these things are based in your reasoning skills and understanding of how things work (intelligence), not your dexterity or agility or even precision (which yes, is a factor.. hence the SUCCESSFUL ATTACK part that is required for it to even trigger. A successful attack roll on a death attack, causing it to hit, means you hit the vital spot you aimed for. Dexterity CAN count here as part of the attack roll and finesse of how well the aim of the attack was. It simply does not account for the actual technique hidden behind it)

Edit:

As for people in general saying "oh yes, assassins are good but X is better", I honestly don't care. There are better options yes, but there are better options over a wizard too (sorc obviously) but people still pick it. There are better options for a paladin to multiclass to for instance, so instead of going Harper scout for their tumble, most tend to go rogue. My simple point is that it CAN be done, without crippling your build and in most cases it actually makes more sense.. plus you do not earn yourself the label of a powerbuilder. Say what you will, but every last character that I've made, with assassin levels.. have been exceptionally good at doing exactly that. Assassinating from surprise attacks before the enemy has a chance to fully prepare for it or retaliate. This is something assassins do exceptionally well, even if rogues can do the exact same thing and come out on top thanks to their rogue bonus skills and crippling strike. I simply and honestly wish people would branch out some and try to be original in their class picks instead of always going 2 rogue for that UMD+Tumble+Evasion for their chars, just because its' the stronger pick. A Paladin with HS levels can be just as strong as Harper Scouts get Tumble. And an evil warrior can be just as strong from taking 1-3 Assassin levels, as he can be from taking 1-3 rogue levels. It is simply different.

I've been playing an assassin on and off ever since I started playing Amia, and I have had no problem with them or their builds. They have always been a decent class in my book and the RP opportunities they present compared to a standard rogue class have always tickled my fancy. If you want to be the best of the best with a super sneak powerbuild, then don't pick assassin and stop complaining. Honestly.. :roll:

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Give a valid argumentation of why, And a reasoning behind

Because Assassin abilities are based off of intelligence, not Dexterity. They are. This is what they do. IT's immutable. Dexerity is powerful enough as it is in the game with having the highest AC, reflex for evasion vs powerful spells, epic dodge, weapon AB, that it does not need to become the central focus for an entire classe's array of very powerful inexhaustible onhit abilities. IT's not going to happen, so don't bother wasting your breath campaigning for it, is what I'm saying. Just saving you the trouble.

And Assassin is the intelligent killer. th sly stalker. His abilities don't come because he is nimble, they come because he has a single minded focuses and a dedication to the Art Of Murder. You don't die because he's FAST. You die because he knows more about your anatomy than you know about yourself.

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I simply and honestly wish people would branch out some and try to be original in their class picks instead of always going 2 rogue for that UMD+Tumble+Evasion for their chars, just because its' the stronger pick.

This is my point. It's a wish. Comparative class strength is beside the point, and it's something you brought up and I adressed, not the other way around. Assassins were rare before, and for a change that involved much work and scripting, this is not hitting the mark if the goal was to make the class more appealing. That's all I'm saying, it's not a petition.

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You don't die because he's FAST. You die because he knows more about your anatomy than you know about yourself.

Arguably, you don't need 20 INT to know that there's a vein here and there. Arguably as well, DEX can make you land those killer hits precisely without missing, which is an important part of carrying out assassination.

But more generally, saying that things are as they are because of lore is self-defeating, because these kits are not inherent to the class in lore. In lore, Assassins also get HiPS. That's not going to happen, I know - but if someone tries to refute my argument with something completely beside the point it makes, I'll try and refute in turn or specify what I meant. Here, however, for all that's been said, the botom line seems to be "it is how it is because we say so". I just thought the kits was a cool idea and felt they were going to waste with a mechanic that would lead to them seldom being used. That's all I have to say.

Since the kit means you can now surprise your enemy with a DC 36+ fort, reflex OR will based attack to disable them.. it's anything but useless and anyone that's been using assassins for a while know how good this kit really can be. A level 16 Assassin with 16 base int can easily get out a high DC on this. And there are VERY few classes or builds that manage to cap out all their saves high enough for all these rolls to only rely on 1 rolls..

The kit is a homebrew extension of their fighting technique of studying their prey and spotting their weaknesses, then using a technique that has the highest chance of success against that particular target.

Your argument that having DEX decide the DC of the skill is completely voided by the fact that assassins are not exclusively all Dex users, and as I explained above.. the skill only has Dex/Str in as a factor because you need to land the attack before you get to do the roll to see the success or failure of the maneuver.

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Arguably as well, DEX can make you land those killer hits precisely without missing, which is an important part of carrying out assassination.

Dex makes the mage land his touch attack.

But does Dex decide how powerful the spell is, after he's touched?

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Dex makes the mage land his touch attack.

But does Dex decide how powerful the spell is, after he's touched?

A touch attack is used to land spells, the power of which is linked to a mage's aptitude at magic. I can see how this can apply to an Assassin's DC, but I can also see how the DC of something that isn't a spell, but rather a carefully-determined blow wouldn't rule out the use of DEX entirely; from there, where I see an open choice where both should perhaps be factored, but we have to choose one, I would have gone with what makes Assassins more potent instead of more flavorful (which would be present even if they were potent).

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Since the kit means you can now surprise your enemy with a DC 36+ fort, reflex OR will based attack to disable them.. it's anything but useless and anyone that's been using assassins for a while know how good this kit really can be. A level 16 Assassin with 16 base int can easily get out a high DC on this. And there are VERY few classes or builds that manage to cap out all their saves high enough for all these rolls to only rely on 1 rolls..

Without knowing the DC progression, if it's different than that of Death Attack, I can't really argue. I can say that based on someone's post in the other thread, I was under the impression that it was the same DC as Death Attack - in which case you can get 36+ DC and low AB, or you can get a "high DC" with 16 base INT (fishing for 1) and average AB, not both.

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Your argument that having DEX decide the DC of the skill is completely voided by the fact that assassins are not exclusively all Dex users, and as I explained above.. the skill only has Dex/Str in as a factor because you need to land the attack before you get to do the roll to see the success or failure of the maneuver.

As the first quote, this implies that finesse of a manoeuver only matters inasmuch as the weapon needs to touch the opponent, and then the killing takes care of itself naturally once the dagger has made contact. Both in touching and in executing an angling, turning, or anything similar of a weapon, DEX is not ruled out as a component.

The suggestion is a mechanical one, since this new addition to the arsenal is a mechanical one, tied to one possible interpretation of abilities rather than another, which aims to use this new addition to a more potent end than it currently is. Practically speaking, the suggestion is partly about removing the choice between:
- Once/turn low-to-moderate chances of sucess on flat-footed unarmored targets (with boosted INT for the mentioned DC, you will practically be fishing for 20 instead of 1 just to hit fullplate);
- Once/turn fishing for 1 rolls (because with 16 INT and high DEX, you will be fishing, even if someone doesn't have +20 to all saves fromt heir gear) against the vast majority.

The choice above being inherent to standard Assassins, and still now with this DC progression. This is all taking for granted a carefully planned build with either INT or DEX, of course. STR can be substituted for DEX as well.

I really feel like at this point, the argument about my suggestion isn't about Assassins so much as a more profound principle about unity of interpretation. I can agree to disagree, but I'm not conceding that the version of INT vs DEX presented by either side is the only justified way to see things, as seems to be the only reason left not to just leave my post as a suggestion to take or leave. It can make sense if you consider other views than the one, and it can make a class that needs to be maximized to work to any effect in a build (as is so often discouraged, right?) more popular and effective, where more people would make use of these new tools that I'm sure much time and effort went into scripting.

The DC of the abilities both Death attack and the assassin tool changes easily reach mid to high 30's with 16-18 levels and just 14-16 Base int. By my calculations on average, the DC difference won't be much more than 5 or 6, depending how high your Dex mod goes (this is based off Dexmod 14)

So why are you arguing so much towards having everything set towards Dex when it makes no sense for anything except the actual landing of the attack, as the Assassin skill is based off study, observation and applying that knowledge as I have stated repeatedly above? As I have said repeatedly, you can easily get DC 30+ saves on all the kinds of poisons and abilities that assassins have gotten now. As a result, you have more than 1 for each type of save, and thus make you an excellent assassin if you apply it right.. as an assassin would.. it is applies trough study of the target, you pick the one you figure will do the most damage.. and then go to work.

The Dexterity part does simply not make sense, because if you are arguing for dex to get involved in the mod, then please provide argument that proves that str also makes sense as both of them are the Attack bonus based ability stats, and assassins do not have ANY skills they gain that promote one over the other for the class.

As for the DC of the skills and how it is calculated, I'll leave it up to a DM to decide if it should be made public knowledge or not. But that you're saying the skills won't be used at all is flat out wrong, and the argument that it should be based off Dex doesn't fit the PnP lore behind the Assassin based attack abilities, or the fact that they should naturally favor Dex over Str. Why Dex and not Str as well? Some assassins can easily go devcrit to take down their target faster and in a totally brutal way, not all assassins are based off dexterity and slick maneuvering. Yet all assassins have the training and know-how of how to study and observe their victim, decide when to attack, how to attack and here to strike for maximum effect as all their skills (and spells) are based off Int. The fact that Assassins do not gain evasion/improved evasion further proves this fact. And if you're going to point out that they get uncanny dodge, I'll point out that so does Barbarians.

Sorry, you can argue for Dex(or even Str) being used in the roll as much as you want, but when push comes to shove.. it doesn't fit and I seriously doubt it will ever be changed. You're trying to warp a class that is completely based off the INT ability modifier and alter parts of it to be Dex for some reason, and it doesn't fit because Rogues and Assassins are as different as Sorcs and Wizards. And a Wizard won't ever try to get some of his DCs based off Cha instead because maybe his build would make that better. It is how it is, and if you don't like it then pick another class that is not based off an ability modifier that doesn't fit your char's stats or IC behavior.

99% of that comes back to the unity of interpretation. Some of it was answered in my last post, some of it ultimately resumes to "my opinion is better than yours". You're even skirting around your own reasoning now and then. As stated, most of my suggestion is based on the (hitherto unchallenged, yet stated) assumption that the DC was the same as Death Attack. If it's not the same, then it was enough to say from the outset that it wasn't, instead of saying that anything but one interpretation of fantasy roles is the correct one.

For the sake of argument, because I get off on not letting people put words in my mouth:

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Rogues and Assassins are as different as Sorcs and Wizards

That analogy only works if you assume all rogues are necessarily DEX-based, which is the same fallacy you pointed to in my reasoning. In my reasoning, an Assassin can be DEX or STR based, depending if they use finesse or force to strike. It's simple.

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The Dexterity part does simply not make sense, because if you are arguing for dex to get involved in the mod, then please provide argument that proves that str also makes sense as both of them are the Attack bonus based ability stats

Asked and answered. The same way having physical strength lets you hit more precisely - it's a mechanic and up for interpretation. It can make sense as explained in the general way in my last post, and would stand in place of any Attack Bonus modifier ability since we need one, not two - instead of choosing one of the two, we currently have neither.

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Yet all assassins have the training and know-how of how to study and observe their victim, decide when to attack, how to attack and here to strike for maximum effect as all their skills (and spells) are based off Int.

Funny how, for every other class, perceptiveness is a WIS ability. Explain how your all-encompassing understanding of the class accounts for this discrepancy? Maybe it's only broadly defined and meant to be versatile - in the way that there are STR and DEX assassins - and there are different ways to assassinate - in the same way that there are different tools.

I made a suggestion. It takes minimal imagination to allow DEX to take the role of INT. "It is how it is" is the crux of your response, so why can't we just say you don't agree?

Look, I'm just gonig to reiterate: It's not going to change. So you're wasting your breath. I hate to be a dick and say that, but...

Well...I have 2 actual questions:

1) Once applied, does an ability have a duration equal to your assassin levels? Meaning, the effect is rolled for every attack, for x turns? I assume it's a 1-shot deal then needs to be re-applied...

2) Do these abilities work for ANY attack made, or do the death attack parameters still need to be met (flat-footed target)?

You know what assassin's need?
1. HIPS at level 8.
2. Spells/level as per pnp.

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

Well...I have 2 actual questions:

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All of these abilities have a cooldown of 1 turn once a target has been hit by this (saving throw rolled, not failed save VS effect) before another attempt can be made. The cooldown is universal and will persist for 1 turn even if you change which ability to use. Note that you do not have to reapply it after each use, the ability will be activated and on your weapons for 1 Turn per Assassin level.

1. Although the ability is applied for the duration, when you make a successful strike a cooldown (1 turn) begins, in which time no attacks will trigger a new saving throw. I think. You don't need to re-apply the ability until the duration of it (1 turn per assassin level) expires.

2. I don't know but I would assume it's for any attack made.

Nekhy wrote:

//OOC Note: To use these techniques, simply use the kit and select which one to use. All of these abilities have a cooldown of 1 turn once a target has been hit by this (saving throw rolled, not failed save VS effect) before another attempt can be made. The cooldown is universal and will persist for 1 turn even if you change which ability to use. Note that you do not have to reapply it after each use, the ability will be activated and on your weapons for 1 Turn per Assassin level.//

A few questions for those who care to answer them to related to the use of the kit.
1. Can it be used in combat?
2. Is it a free action or do you have that one round use widget animation?
3. Do the abilities stack with one another? Is there any particular combination that does not stack.
4. DC for all attacks is 10+CL+Int Mod correct?
5. Does it work on all attack modes, Power Attack, Whirlwind, Dirty Fighting. etc.

Is the formula for the poison DC the same as death attack?

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Look, I'm just gonig to reiterate: It's not going to change. So you're wasting your breath. I hate to be a dick and say that, but...

Far from being a dick, actually. I just wanted someone to say it instead of trying to pretend there's an inherent truth based in lore to it that ruled out any and all other interpretations of fantasy abilities. To reiterate as well, I'm not pushing for a change; I'm just pointing to what I saw as a flaw in an otherwise nice addition. The suggestion itself was made under the assumption that the DC for the kit abilities was the same as Death Attack - apparently, it's not, so there's no need for my suggestion to even be looked at.

Can we get the DC progression, though?
Also, if using the kit counts as an action, does it force the PC to exit Stealth?

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

You know what assassin's need?
1. HIPS at level 8.
2. Spells/level as per pnp.

Oh god dont give more hips, its spammed and terribly roleplayed as is >.<

My Sovereign wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

You know what assassin's need?
1. HIPS at level 8.
2. Spells/level as per pnp.

Oh god dont give more hips, its spammed and terribly roleplayed as is >.<

What roleplay? It's a combat ability.

Quote:

Kneecapper's Knife (Knockdown) (Rounds/3Assassin, reflex)
The legs are a promising, if difficult to hit, target. They are often more lightly armored than the torso, as even the most rigid plate armor has many joints and thin parts in its metal.

And woo-hoo! Ranged knockdown!

A few questions for those who care to answer them to related to the use of the kit.
1. Can it be used in combat? No, it opens up a dialog
2. Is it a free action or do you have that one round use widget animation? it is a widget you use, so slightly longer than 1 round to activate (you have to see the conversation)
3. Do the abilities stack with one another? You can only apply one at a time, but if there are multiple assassins then the abilities will stack.
4. DC for all attacks is 10+CL+Int Mod correct? (Not sure if I am supposed to answer this)
5. Does it work on all attack modes? It is just an onhit applied to the weapon so yes.

Can we get the DC progression, though?
Also, if using the kit counts as an action, does it force the PC to exit Stealth? Yes, there is no getting around this but for a higher level assassin you can have this running a long time.

Zinovy wrote:

Funny how, for every other class, perceptiveness is a WIS ability. Explain how your all-encompassing understanding of the class accounts for this discrepancy?

It's not perceptiveness but someone finding the perfect way to apply a set of knowledge.

As for the statement that it's based off how you choose to interpret it, how about this one:

I'm right because the sourcebooks says so, and dex has nothing to do with the DC of death attack (or any other sneak attack techniques for that matter), beyond the calculation of AB vs AC.

Does the kit require you to be hostile to your target?

What's stopping someone from running away or attacking as you're unstealthed and looking through the list for the right ability to use on them (assuming you have to be hostile)?

Does getting attacked with the dialogue open close the dialogue?

The kit does not require you to hostile a target as you use it BEFORE attacking, and the property of the ability you pick is added to whatever weapons you're currently wielding.

The duration of them is 1 turn per Assassin CL, as such you can apply it in good time before hitting your target so it won't break your stealth.

The dialogue behaves like all other dialogues on NWN, and thus can't be opened in mid combat.

Jehran wrote:

A few questions for those who care to answer them to related to the use of the kit.

4. DC for all attacks is 10+CL+Int Mod correct? (Not sure if I am supposed to answer this)

CL here refers to assassin levels and not character levels?

Gravemaskin wrote:

The kit does not require you to hostile a target as you use it BEFORE attacking, and the property of the ability you pick is added to whatever weapons you're currently wielding.

The duration of them is 1 turn per Assassin CL, as such you can apply it in good time before hitting your target so it won't break your stealth.

The dialogue behaves like all other dialogues on NWN, and thus can't be opened in mid combat.

Oh, this I misunderstood. I had thought that it was instantaneous, not something you can prepare for. Ignore me, then.

Gravemaskin wrote:

I honestly don't get why people shy so much away from assassins..

Low requirement to become one if you're evil
They get UMD, Tumble and all other skills that rogues get except persuade and parry
No evasion so that sucks I guess
No Multiclass penalty
Better sneak attack than rogues
Self cast improved invis + a few other fun spells.

Honestly, Assassins are a better pick than rogues in my eyes since you can get improved evasion on gear anyway for some chars, especially since they get the self buffs that help and aid any melee character.

All of my evil chars, save one, have had assassin levels to one degree or another.

Now with the improved pick of abilities they have recently gotten thanks to Jehran, they are a quite decent class to multiclass into, even if you're aiming for a high amount of assassin levels.

edit:
Not to mention that the RP venues that open up for an assassin! They can be pretty damn awesome if done right..

Easy. Assassins don't get the same skill point multiplier that rogues do. So half those skills aren't accessible. Its the same problem bard has. Crappy skill point multiplier which makes no sense.

Blame Bioware.

And wait. Ranged knockdown? Are you kidding me? Rapid Fire + Haste + High AB = Knockdown Spam from hell? I hope this not been made into a custom feat and thus is hard to spam.

Question;

To apply the effect to a weapon do you have to open a dialogue and select exactly which one you want to apply? Or is it something like the Barbarian tool, where you decide which one you want then it automatically applies every time its used?

The difference being that you would have to open the dialogue -every- time you wanted to use it, or just have a preset setting you like to use that you simply use the kit directly on your weapon. If you want to change it, you just use it on yourself etc etc...

If it isn't like the above, maybe it would be a beneficial change to set it up as such? Makes it a bit easier and such.. Short version being;

Use Kit on Self -> Convo -> Ability Options -> Select Ability -> Saves ability selection until manually changed by same manner.
Use Kit on Weapon -> Automatically Apply Ability on X weapon.

PS. Interesting after-thought... If such a manner as above was implemented, would it be possible to add two different effects to two different weapons? If the person is dual-wielding, of course. The cooldown for the effects would still be 1 turn, but it would give the person a chance to "switch it up" in the middle of a long fight.

If you'll look at the actual changes as listed in the Assassin's and INT based attacks topic, you'll see that each of the abilities have a 1 turn cooldown before they can be used again.

This means that if you apply a poison as a level 10 assassin, your poisons will last for 10 turns on whatever weapon you're using.

If you hit an enemy with your weapon 5 turns after you applied it, a 1 turn cooldown will take effect before the roll will be made again. let's say there's 50 second seconds remaining of the cooldown, If you now open the kit again and pick another ability, you'll still have 50 seconds remaining before this one can be used, even though you changed it.

Roughly translating to a level 10 assassin being able to use the applied skill between 8 and 10 times before he has to reapply it, and a minimum distance of 1 turn between each roll made with the various abilities from the kit.

Okay, bare with me because I absolutely suck at builds and such. If what I've read is right, this means someone can shoot arrows with knockdown applied to them 10 times, with a 1 turn cool down before each shot, before they must use the kit again to reapply the effect to the bow?

Assuming they are a level 10 Assassin.

Edit: I wrote something that was wrong.

You need to be at least a level 16 assassin to get the knockdown ability.

At level 16, let's say you use this ability while wielding a bow & arrows. For the next 16 minutes, the next attack you deliver will force the target to roll vs reflex or get knocked down.

Once the roll has been made against them (let's say they saved successfully), then nothing happens and there is a 1 turn cooldown before the roll will be made again on another successful hit (that's 60 seconds)

Hmmm, 60 seconds seems like a short time. But guess wait and see if it is or isn't. Only way of knowing will be how it's used in the server I guess.

Roppi wrote:

Jehran wrote:

A few questions for those who care to answer them to related to the use of the kit.

4. DC for all attacks is 10+CL+Int Mod correct? (Not sure if I am supposed to answer this)

CL here refers to assassin levels and not character levels?

Yes, class levels. Anything more would be unbalanced and anything less would be a travesty.

assassin changes

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