Alright, so likely this spell has already been discussed, but has been lost to the destruction of time, and with my amatuer searching skills, I could not locate any relevant threads. If anyone has a link, please share.

As the title implies, I have a few questions concerning the non-direct pvp (ie, pnpish) applications of this spell. I've looked it up on d20srd, but there it says that the spell lasts a whole day per CL, so that right there made me pause.

1) Despite the spell working on hostile humanoids in PvE, does Dominate Monster technically not work at all on other PCs, due to them not being 'monsters'? There was one time I applied this spell to another PC, where the player then told me that because their character wasn't a 'monster', the spell wouldn't work. It 'had' to be dominate person. I was under the impression, however, that anything that can be dominated by the spell, dominate person, could also be dominated by the spell, dominate monster. Dominate person is simply restricted to humanoids. Dominate monster can dominate humanoids, but also other manners of creatures, such as animals, basiliks, and what have you.

2) [Sticky question here I'm sure has been debated, just looking for the consensus, if there is one] -- How does this spell work in terms of extracting information? I've been told that the only commands you can give the subject are simple, one-worded commands. However, according to d20srd, this is only true if you and the subject lack a common language. Otherwise, the subject can follow commands in such an UNzombie-like fashion, that in fact a DC 15 sense motive check is required to detect any hint that they're under a spell at all. This implies to me a more sophisticated form of mind control than what is usually rped, ie, people acting like dumb robots (often especially stupid, to the point of deliberately being as useless as possible, as a tactic of hindering the enchanter). So I guess this is really two questions. a) Just how sophisticated can the commands be, assuming you share a common language with the subject, and b), Can this spell be used (perhaps abused?) to force a subject to reveal any information they have regarding a topic (exactly how easy, if at all, is it to extract info with Dominate Monster?)

3) Is all this discussion moot because it falls under the realm of PnP (in the sense that it deviates from scripted NwN mechanics)? Is there at all a consensus on this rather PnPish spell?

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Ok, now onto the mechanics of the spell, and how it relates to PvP. First of all, let me express my sheer disappointment (not to the fault of any DMs or staff) of how this spell utterly fails in PvP, at least compared to how it functions -properly- in PvE. When I dominate something in PvE, it joins my party. I can read its hp. And, surprise surprise, it -fights- for me. If it can cast spell, hell it does that too! Pretty cool. It 'is' a lvl 9 spell that only affects a single target, and does nothing on a successful save, so it makes sense. Neat.

PvE version. The target is -dazed-. The target can walk, but not run, and otherwise cannot take any other actions (effectively removed from the PvP, which is admittedly nice). Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I do any damage to the subject, even inadvertantly, the subject is no longer dazed. There goes a considerable chunk of my AoE spells. I don't think the subject even joins my party.

RPwise, I find it difficult to explain the seemingly arbitirary difference between dominating a monster while hunting and dominating another PC. Hence, most uses of this spell on other PCs are done 'out' of PvP. Since the mechanics don't allow me to actually -force- the PC to turn on their friends, the only times this spell ever achieves its intended function, is when the player owning the dominated PC is -willing- to fluff it out.

My question is this: How well does this spell work in PvP (in the midst of a multi-PC conflict)? Has anyone tried, despite the nerfed daze effect? Do victims show any willingness, even in the midst of mutli PC PvP, to obey your commands as much as possible in good sport? The mechanics are so terrible, that even if the other player wants their dominated PC to suddenly turn and attack his friends in the heat of battle, he can't. Because he's dazed, he can't attack -anyone-, friend or foe. How frustrating.

How conceivable is it to fix this spell so that, when successfully casted against another PC, they auto-hostile anyone the enchanter is hostiled to, and proceeds to fight for her just as any monster in PvE would - completely beyond the control of the dominated PC's player? I imagine its difficult, seeing as how it hasn't been done yet.

I'd be lovely to dominate a fighter standing next to his mage ally, who then shrieks in terror, "Lathander help me! Billy is about to lop my head off!" Perhaps she's worried Billy has Dev. crit.

Im quite certain that if the target is dazed from the spell in PvP, beating the snot out of him does nothing to remove the daze effect. Unlike in PvM when the critter joins your party and if your Fireball damages it.

That said, I believe the general consensus was that the spell is broke in PvM and semi useful in PvP. Changing the daze effect would empower it too much.
There were more arguments presented of course. But that's the summary.

Well ... that's how enchantment works. They work under the function that you're not going to turn around and murder them. And even fi you do you effectively got one free hit. It's not a "stand there and I kill you" spell, it's a spell thta alters teir brain functions and emotions so that the subject treats you as a best friend/slavering master/etc etc.



No, "Dominate Monster" is a catchall meaning that the spell works on anything under the sun. The player in question is incorrect.
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Re: Domination, yes, you can "interrogate" with it, but for every individual question you would ask (more specifically: "for any action the subject would not normally perform", for the sake of simplicity we'll assume you're asking them info they don't want to give away), they ge a secondary will save to immediately break th domination. If they make the save, it breaks. If they fail, they reveal whatever, but "hindering the spell" is completely possible. They told you the truth. Learn to word your interrogations better, I guess. This is also how sly people beat Zone of Truth spells. They do still act pretty robotically, btw. If you read the section.



Mind that DC 15 is a 25% chance for someone with 0 ranks (aka a commoner) to see through the domination. That means on average walking through a busy city, one in four people may notice that something is "kinda off" about "that guy".

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Not possible, or more specifically: not VIABLE. It is possible. the downside? It has this annoying tendency to erase the character from the vault. This happened with the old guard manacles and it's why they don't do it anymore. PCs just weren't coded by Bioware to really functionunder the "Domination" status effect with the faction swapping and such.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Thanks for clearing a lot of this up for me. Much appreciated.



This put things in better perspective.



So dominate monster doesn't literally take away all their free will 100% for its spell duration? Its more of an enchanting effect that simply makes them feel more compelled to serve their master, though in their service they still have a degree of self awareness and knowledge? That makes more sense, hence why sophisticated commands can be given such for them to cast spells on your behalf and reveal information. Its not like a telepathic total hijack like you see in x-com or those creepy kids in village of the damned.



Hehe, would be neat to test this out sometime, just to be sure. Though according to Tormak's fluff behind the spell, I believe attacking the target -should- remove the daze effect, if I'm understanding correctly.

On that note, another question. In PvE, you can only have one creature dominated at a time. What about PvP? Can I cast dominate monster multiple times, and have several targets dazed simultaneously?

Thanks.

The spell is complex in actual DnD. I don't know if this is actually cannon, but my interpretation is that you can access information and implant ideas into the character's head, but in a way, they have to be filtered through the character's subconsciousness before being carried out.

Any absolutely deadly actions can never be carried out because of the fight-or-flight response, which is subconscious. Any action which the character would normally be vehemently against committing encounters resistance, as well, because this behavior is also a subconscious aspect of the character's psyche.

This means that the character has an augmented chance of perceiving (consciously) that his subconscious mind is acting contrary to the way that it should, and therefore, that it is being dissuaded by some external force. Since the character is now trying to kick out an external influence, and his subconsciousness -belongs- to him, he has a far greater chance of doing this, and in fact invariably succeeds if he realizes that his life is in danger.



I -think- that this is mostly an OOC measure because of the huge problems that domination creates in terms of character files, as Tormak stated.

As such, it is difficult in terms of IC reasoning. However, generally speaking, I think it is not that difficult to get around this. One way to think about this might be the following (this is purely fluff, and could be totally wrong in terms of cannon): Being such a complex enchantment (likely -the- apex of the enchantment school) it has a 'default' setting, which is the daze. It is so immensely powerful that it has the ability to disrupt a person's thought pattern, leaving them dazed and incapable of holding any train of thought, conscious or subconscious.

The spell -then- has a second layer, which the caster may access, and this layer involves sorting and focusing the effect by homing in on the character's subconsciousness, leaving his consciousness completely intact and unaffected. This requires much, much more effort, and only works in some specific instances.

Why? just consider that doing something like this is likely to be exceptionally difficult. Accessing a person's mind, and modulating thoughts/memories/actions by impacting their subconsciousness while leaving their consciousness intact is just.. so, so delicate, and nigh impossible. Factors which impact on this could include:

* The person the spell is being cast on, who may have an extremely inaccessible subconsciousness or a highly alert consciousness, either generally or on the very instant that the mage is trying to dominate him.

* The Mage's state of mind, which has to be quite clear and lucid at the time of casting. Any irritability, distraction, sickness, anything that might affect his concentration, etc etc might impact on such an action.

* Random factors such as the fluctuation in the weave, or random or environmentally driven physiological changes in the dominated person that might cause random changes in the character's psyche.

These things might therefore explain, at least to some extent, why some creatures are affected by the actual -domination effect- (i.e. NPCs, monsters, and willing PCs) while others are not (default and unwilling PCs).

A dominated PC can thus be targeted and attacked because the spell is only on the first 'layer', while there is still a possibility to actually enter the second layer (proper domination) -provided- that the Mage can get himself into the correct state of mind and can also understand the other PCs psyche better and chooses a good time to perform the spell -and- is lucky (this will involve background RP and player consent).

This is just fluff, and it may be correct or incorrect... but it's a way that I like to explain to myself why this spell works the way it does on Amia.



Last I checked, Dominate Monster is effectively a level 9 stun on Amia; it does not get dispelled if the character is attacked. As for dazing several people at once, I've never tried this, but I don't see any reason why this shouldn't work, simply because the spell mechanics work differently from the usual Domination, and as stated previously, emulate a daze effect.

Wow...thank you so much for that explanation.

My main issue still, is that when you cast dominate monster in the heat of battle while hunting, you automatically jump to this 'second' layer. But for some reason, the mere changing of a monster to a PC causes you instead to only jump to the 'first' layer, in the heat of battle.

So, we simply say that the random variables you mentioned (weave fluctuation, physiological changes of the victim, etc) conveniently become a factor when a dominate monster is attempted on a PC in the heat of battle, but not a factor when dominating an NPC creature while hunting? I wish there was some way to explain why fortune and random luck suddenly seem so 'orderly', but this is still a much better explanation than nothing at all. You say its not cannon, but its still a really nice way of explaining this difference. Dominate monster can act both as a 'Daze effect' -or- a 'dominate effect', pending on these layers. Its just for some reason, PCs tend to only reach the first layer in the midst of battle, whereas NPC monsters, even in the midst of battle, always default to the second layer. What if, as a caster, I -wanted- to only daze a monster? I might have a good reason for doing so, after all. Perhaps I'm interested in dazing multiple opponents.

Also, thank you for explaining how, if its a dazed PC, you can proceed to damage and destroy them without breaking the enchantment, since it is only first layer, and they are not even aware of themselves. Their fight or flight syndrome cannot even kick in, as their subconscious is completely subverted.

Whereas if a subject is dominated, ie a monster NPC while hunting, they are on the 'second' layer, and therefore have a degree of self-awareness great enough to allow them the capability to carry out sophisticated orders. But with this self-awareness, comes a possibility for fight-or-flight syndrome, so that if you harm them, they -will- be aware, and the enchantment is broken.

Again, not cannon as you say, but still a very nice way of explaining it, certaintly better than nothing at all.


Also,



Thanks. Basically weighing the options for taking ESF Enchantment and a ninth lvl slot in dominate monster for my pure sorc caster.

Oh, and Merry Christmas everybody!

This is the sort of stuff I love to RP theorizing IG. >.> You're right, though, it's not a perfect explanation in any way, because being in the heat of battle as one usually is when dominating monsters you would be more likely to only reach the 'first layer', and not have the concentration or willpower to follow through to the 'second layer'. Having said that, you seem to be ignoring the psyche of the creature that you are attempting to dominate.

Consider what creatures you might realistically dominate using the level 9 spell (without DM intervention).

* 'Monsters' - Realistically, the hostile creatures you will be dominating are most often going to be animals who don't have very prominent conscious minds (low will animals, beasts, magical beasts), or have very little willpower (a plethora of creatures that are of a much lower level than you). However, in the vast majority of cases it will not work on monsters that are sentient (have a strong conscious mind) and are around your ECL.

An example of this is the abyss: dominating those hounds isn't that difficult, but you will have a much tougher time dominating the Balors (though, it's still doable, provided that you have enough Dominations and are -lucky-).

* 'NPCs' - (I define these as creatures from races which PCs can pick, or are similar to them) Realistically, you will be dominating either NPCs with very low willpower (low-mid level spawns) or NPCs who are already under mind affecting influences (e.g. Drow thralls in the mindflayer layer).

* PCs - I would say that will is probably the least 'pumped' saving throw on Amia (though I'm in no way certain of this). Having said that, I would think that digging into the minds of PCs, who are often going to be around your level and are tenacious in both their conscious and subconscious minds (they cast spells, they're masters of sword-play, they're workmen, artists. They're active and extremely individual. They have their own heritage, their own histories, their own goals and aspirations, etc etc) is going to be quite more difficult, even if their basal willpower isn't as great as one would imagine it should be.

The pattern that emerges here is that, in very, very general terms, the creatures you will be dominating in Amia (that is, spawns) are going to either have weak minds in general, inherently weak conscious minds or minds that are already weakened by other magics. All of these effects might lend to a caster being able to have much, much easier access to their subconscious mind, and much less difficulty in evading 'surveillance' by the conscious aspect of the creature. Meaning that accessing that 'second layer' is much, much easier than it would otherwise be. That provides, in general terms, a reason for why it is so easy to dominate monsters and NPCs (those that would fail the will save on a predictable basis, that is). That PCs are so tenaciously individual and conscious of themselves as explained above might also go some way to explaining why accessing that 'second layer' is generally more difficult, as previously discussed.

I am sure that you could find creatures which don't fit into the categories that I've listed here, but the general concept, I think, still holds, and you can always find reasonable excuses/reasons why some creatures evade or appear to override these rules (this is one of the things I like to do with my Wizard).

The thing that wasn't really addressed here is why you can't choose to simply daze monsters. Technically, I guess one could daze monsters based on all of this but the question is, why would one want to waste a 9th circle spell to produce an effect on a single creature that one can produce on multiple creatures using a lower tier spell (that is, Confusion)? The real power and purpose of the spell is the domination. Thus, a smart spellcaster, which I would assume most Amian casters to be, would either use Confusion for the AOE daze-like effect or use the domination effect to dominate, and not to daze (unless they're trying to target a mid-level will PC). BTW, this can also be explained in terms of theory if you really want it to, but I think I've written too much about this already. >.>

This 'model' of how the spell works is just my (character's) theory, and could be completely wrong. Maybe you (and your character) can construct your own, better one. Really, this is where the fun is in the RP. You get a set of facts or 'knowns' (which may or may not exist due to OOC considerations; it doesn't matter for this purpose) about the fantasy world (as you do in our world, really) and you have to create theories which unite and make sense of the phenomena that you see. You could be totally wrong, because the world is so complex, but you do the best that you can, and you pick your theories based on how well they're backed up by evidence and how well they predict future events.

This then allows you to pick what spells to use better, or even to build on the ideas to make your own variations of known spells or completely new spells. If the ideas are correct enough, that is >_-.

If you think about it that way, these questions can actually drive your RP as a sorcerer/wizard.

The reason I would want to use Dominate Monster to daze, as opposed to dominate, multiple enemies, as opposed to relying on a single lower circle spell such as Confusion, is for the higher DC, or as it relates to rp, 'higher chance for success'. It does seem a bit impractical to use so many 9th circle slots, but still, it is something I can -not- perfectly duplicate with Confusion, due to it being less likely to prove successful. And even if there literally 'was' no practical reason to dominate monsters with only a 'daze' effect, that is no reason why I shouldn't be able to. Honestly if you've any genuine theory as to why I can't daze monsters with dominate monster like I can PCs, I'd love to hear it, though you make me tempted to seek you out IG now with my wizard for some IC rp/discussion .

I haven't considered that a lack of ooc knowledge, or consistency (pending how you want to put it), could actually drive rp as you say.

Yus! I'd be happy to go on about this with ya, but IG! (see reason below)



I'm not sure if you mean this as a snark or not, but I stick by what I said, either way. This sort of stuff is fluff that you probably won't find any cannon on because it's custom made for Amia and was created (as far as I know, and I could be wrong) for OOC reasons. Now, you can challenge the OOC reasons and try to come up with better solutions, and for that, there is the Improving Amia part of the forums. Otherwise, however, you have to accept that the spell's effects are reality for your characters.

I don't know this for certain, but I don't think that magic is as standardized as the mechanics make it seem (again, the following is my interpretation and could be completely wrong). Because magic is so individual to a Sorcerer, he may have completely different motivations, and even methods, of casting the same spell as another Sorcerer. To a somewhat lesser degree, this might also be the case for a Wizard, who may come to learn and cast the same spell from a completely different angle of reason and method as another Wizard. Supporting evidence for this comes from the fact that even other Wizards find it difficult to read other Wizard's spell-books, many times (this could be because of their atrocious hand-writing, alternatively. ). Also, I find it hard to imagine that the thousands of different cultures which harbor arcane spell-casters would have the exact same method of casting, even if they all fall under the same banner as 'Wizard' or 'Sorcerer'.

So, what you come out with here is that whether you play a Sorcerer or a Wizard, even though you might cast the same spell, you might have completely different ways of doing it, and the same goes for the Dominate Monster spell. What I've been divulging here is how my character interprets and understands how his own version of the spell is cast. Your character, however, may have quite a different way of doing it, unless he learns it directly from my character. But the truth is, that they could -both- be completely wrong, because they can't really comprehend what they're dealing with (I think Mystra and probably Oghma made pretty clear boundaries about the extent to which any mortal can actually understand how they're using the weave, after what Karsus did).

So, what I'm saying is, there may be multiple of theories of why any spell works the way it does, and they could all be completely wrong (just because facts fit with a theory doesn't mean the theory is true. It just means it has a slimmer likelihood of being wrong) - so this fluff, while nice, is probably best dealt with on an IC level. It's not really up to us to decide what's actually happening: that's the DM team's job; our characters' job is to tinker away and hope that they can unlock and unearth some glimpses of the truth. And since that's pretty much the job description of a Wizard, this really is what Wizard RP should often be about.

I think. >.>