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IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
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Author:  Liz [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 19:09 PM ]
Post subject:  IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Disclaimer: This is not a complaint about the recent spell changes. Complaints, sarcasm, etc., regarding the changes can be directed elsewhere, thank you. :)

What's the accepted consensus for how our characters are supposed to react IC to several of our more popular spells suddenly not working the same way they did a few days ago? Should we all be shocked and stunned? Give a resigned shrug and accept the differences as the whim of Mystra? Just hand-wave it away, and retcon the past as though the current versions of the spells are how the spells actually always worked, move along, nothing to see here?

This question is inspired by a incident last night in which I saw a character using some other spell with a similar VFX to fake like he was protected by a Greater Sanctuary with a minutes-long duration. I will not name this character, out of respect for the preservation of his clever ruse. :)
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 19:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
You deal with it the same way people dealt with every other spell change in the history of Amia. You either ICly recognize it and blame it on the shifting of the Weave

OR

You treat it like it's always been that way.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 19:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Historical revision. The spell has always worked this way. This is how every other change is written off in game, such as the geographical restructuring of the entre island in 1.50.

Rage didn't suddenly change for barbarians when the effects changed.

~

You saw fit to NAME the ruse though, which still completely ruined it. Preservation is dead.
Author:  Rosencrantz [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 19:55 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Unfortunately 'historical revision' here doesn't work as smoothly as it does for geography.

Now when my mage walks around like a buff-ball, she gets called out for being 'aggressive' or 'pointlessly defensive' because other players remember when a mage being buffed fully in the Forest meant something PvP-oriented was going on. I RP it as Mystra changing the weave. Doing so it far easier than a dialogue like..

Suspicious person: Why are you so buffed up, eh?
Mage: What..? I've always buffed up like this. It's not like I could just cast greater sanctuary and buff
Suspicious person: Uhh.. What?
Author:  Kudark [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 20:14 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Most characters shouldn't be able to see those visual FX buffs anyway and wouldn't know if someone else had buff spells cast on them.

What Tormak said about the spell changes is the best way, it avoids any confusion and everyone knows the drill.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 20:16 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Kudark wrote:
Most characters shouldn't be able to see those visual FX buffs anyway and wouldn't know if someone else had buff spells cast on them.


Wrong. Visual VFX are visual.
Author:  BrainSplitter [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 20:19 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Weave shifted. There we go. With magic and other things that characters directly made assessments on, focused on, and have developped - the 'Historical Revision' is quite, well, weird. Why do characters suddenly change their entire spell tactics? Why does a spell previously highly traded on the Scroll market suddenly become worthless? Etc.

That said. It's magic. The Weave has fluctuated as it does,
Author:  Kudark [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 20:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
TormakSaber wrote:
Kudark wrote:
Most characters shouldn't be able to see those visual FX buffs anyway and wouldn't know if someone else had buff spells cast on them.


Wrong. Visual VFX are visual.

What? So anyone can see the pretty colors swirling and flashing around a buffed character?
I thought I read here that was not the case, they were for visual stimulation for the game.
Author:  BrainSplitter [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 20:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
WYSIWYG
Author:  boobookittyscrew [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 20:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
No offense but does anyone actually even RP how long it takes to stun someone?

I NEVER...let me repeat that..NEVER RP'd anything technical as something in game.

In other words....when Dev Crit was able to kill someone in a single blow, I never RP'd "I can kill someone in a single blow, son"

I've never said "I can stop time for precisely nine seconds", then had to change it to "Oh no, I can stop everyone in a given area from moving like a stun spell"

Furthermore, I have never seen anyone actually RP technical aspects in the game, nor game changes for that matter.

It seems when the game change is good...no one bothers to ask about how to RP the technical change....but when the change is not to their liking, all of sudden, the "RP aspect" of the game is questioned.

This thread should be removed or simply added to ALL the other questions/complaints/etc that were in the original post about the changes...


Sorry if I sound jerky...just the whole spell nerf "how do I RP it?" questions are becoming ridiculous...and annoying.
Author:  boobookittyscrew [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 20:38 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
edited...sorry was editing my last post
Author:  BrainSplitter [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 20:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Such is the playerbase, booboo.
Author:  boobookittyscrew [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 20:55 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
What I mean to say after taking a deep breath is simply this: We are RPrs, we pretend all the time when we jump in game. When we emote chopping off a head, their head is still attached, but we use this thing called imagination.

I wish that all players who ask how to pretend something would simply make it up them selves rather than ask for the answer from someone else.

When I use a dev crit and it doesn't kill a creature in a single blow, I emote that it does. Simple as that. They're dead, and at that point I can emote whatever comes to my mind has to how I killed them, in terms of whether it was magic or sword swinging.

I won't emote "uses magic to destroy the fool" when I have a melee fighter...I will emote something appropriate...it may take two or three swings to actually kill said person...but as long as it is a swing that's what matters.

This is especially true with magic users, who can suck souls into obvlivion, stop time, and throw magical bolts.

Use your imagination folks. It's why we're all here.
Author:  IronAngel [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 21:00 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
WYSIWYG is a sad fact. Most buff visuals should be removed, IMO. That can be done without any downloadable files. Please do it.

That's not very much related to the topic. Anyway, I think you're making a problem out of something irrelevant if you can't pretend it's always been this way. We pretend bigger things every day.
Author:  boobookittyscrew [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 21:09 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
I would disagree and agree with the magical VFX...to a degree...


Magic users should be able to see(sense) the magic, a pure melee fighter should not...unsure if it's doable but I'd have it like that.
Author:  BrainSplitter [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 21:09 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
I'd disagree, Iron. Geographical changes are easier as no players actively go "This is how the Earth formed" or otherwise have a direct investigation or interaction with it that would be affected. However, given the extensive 'Mage' base on Amia, including now multiple arcane-focused factions that delve heavily into research - especially the higher tier spells such as Sanctuary - these changes do affect the RP, and the assumption that it had already been as such would make for quite some discrepencies. Especially due to the development of spell tactics, item-economy, and counter-tactics which will have all changed quite obviously.

A character that purchased 10 Greater Sanctuary scrolls to resell them at a high price is going to notice the sudden change in value, and the purchase would not likely have been made had the spell always operated as such. The same applies to Healer Clerics who would previously sit in GS the entire day, capable of buffing and healing their allies in the safety of a long-duration sanctuary. Things they couldn't do after the change, and wouldn't've done had the spell always operated as such.

Ultimately, I'd reason that this is one of the (few) situations where the change is actually a change, in regards to IC. It's easy to account for in RP as to how it happened due to the nature of it (Magic), but the fact it has changed is something that I believe won't be fully or thoroughly solved by simply writing it off as having always been the way.

Edit - Note, I'm not saying what, how, or why the change has occured needs to be defined IC. That's a job for IC Theories, Assumptions, Guesses and Rumour. But the fact there a change has occured needs to be accepted, IMHO.
Author:  boobookittyscrew [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 21:13 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Wouldn't it be proper though to ask said questions and such in game....perhaps a debate as the reason in game, rather than have your answer handed to you on a platter.


On another server I played a mage who sold literally thousands of true strike potions, so much that the DMs of the server up'd the price and xp taken to make them.

I merely said "magic went awry" and left it at that.
Author:  Nivo [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 21:16 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
As one of those people who play in one of those research based, magic factions.. well, I do not think anyone is asking for something to be handed to them. Rather, an event or chance to research into the changes. In fact, I am certain it will come up, somewhere, eventually.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 21:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
IronAngel wrote:
WYSIWYG is a sad fact. Most buff visuals should be removed, IMO. That can be done without any downloadable files. Please do it.


Make them show up dependent on if you make the Spellcraft roll! *eye light up*
Author:  Silvarus [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 21:36 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Dark Immolation wrote:
IronAngel wrote:
WYSIWYG is a sad fact. Most buff visuals should be removed, IMO. That can be done without any downloadable files. Please do it.


Make them show up dependent on if you make the Spellcraft roll! *eye light up*

Failed roll leads into penis extension flashiness and a succesfull roll just gives the bloody defined spell effects without any waste of good energy.
Author:  IronAngel [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 21:41 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
You're not supposed to be able to identify active spells with Spellcraft, AFAIK. I see no reason why PfA, Elemental protections, Mindblanks, True Seeings etc. should have VFX. The removal of CR from PC bios was a good thing. It increased tension and immersion. It's way more exciting not knowing what buffs the other party is running, and it makes it possible to cheat in duels.

This should probably have its own topic, though.
Author:  Silvarus [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 21:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
IronAngel wrote:
You're not supposed to be able to identify active spells with Spellcraft, AFAIK. I see no reason why PfA, Elemental protections, Mindblanks, True Seeings etc. should have VFX. The removal of CR from PC bios was a good thing. It increased tension and immersion. It's way more exciting not knowing what buffs the other party is running, and it makes it possible to cheat in duels.

This should probably have its own topic, though.

And most of all. Excessive light effects are UGLY. I'd rather have a puff of smoke and a wall tumbling down than a flashy cascade of colourful neon lights and a fall tumbling down.
Author:  Palemaster [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 21:52 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
If your a mage and that concerned about wanting to buff your self to the high nine so your instantly ready for any pvp that may arise....

Maybe you should get some IC friends to protect you... Or Higher a body guard...

...Your concerned about Fancy GFX ruining Rp atmosphere but your forgetting the entire RP aspect of Mystra and the Weave regardless....

Personally on my mage I just dont care if im buffed or not when standing around.. Because I expect Rp to take its course one way or another. Its not all about being invincible all the time.
Author:  Silvarus [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 21:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Palemaster wrote:
If your a mage and that concerned about wanting to buff your self to the high nine so your instantly ready for any pvp that may arise....

Maybe you should get some IC friends to protect you... Or Higher a body guard...

...Your concerned about Fancy GFX ruining Rp atmosphere but your forgetting the entire RP aspect of Mystra and the Weave regardless....

Personally on my mage I just dont care if im buffed or not when standing around.. Because I expect Rp to take its course one way or another. Its not all about being invincible all the time.

Who are you replying to, and with what point?
Author:  Palemaster [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 22:05 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
To: Anyone concerned that standing around buffed all the time effects their RP

Point: Most of the time its counter-intuitive to RP to stand around fully buffed.

Secondary point: Weakness is good sometimes IC and RP wise
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 22:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
IronAngel wrote:
You're not supposed to be able to identify active spells with Spellcraft, AFAIK.


D20srd wrote:
20 + spell level : Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm

Now it doesn't say that you "see", visually. You could just realize all at once "Ah, he has X, Y, and Z active on him", but in a game, visually is a lot easier to recognize. It would be interesting if we could put that into the mechanics, but I doubt it. :)
Author:  IronAngel [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 22:45 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
It talks about seeing Stoneskin and figuring out it's a Stoneskin, or throwing things at someone with no effect and realizing it's Steelskin. These are things you should deduce in RP: if your Magic Missile doesn't work, it's fair to realize the guy has Shield on. It certainly doesn't imply that you can "sense" or magically percieve the presence of a spell when it isn't showing its effects. Analyze Dweomer is a level 6 spell, not something you could replace with Spellcraft.

In the end though, it's just outright cooler not to see everything readily. It adds uncertainty, tension, risk and the opportunity for underhanded RP. And what Silvarus said: walking Christmas trees aren't cool.
Author:  Glyph [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 22:46 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
only thing that looks anything like GS is ioun stones, and only the purple ones are confusing.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 22:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
IronAngel wrote:
It talks about seeing Stoneskin and figuring out it's a Stoneskin, or throwing things at someone with no effect and realizing it's Steelskin. These are things you should deduce in RP: if your Magic Missile doesn't work, it's fair to realize the guy has Shield on. It certainly doesn't imply that you can "sense" or magically percieve the presence of a spell when it isn't showing its effects. Analyze Dweomer is a level 6 spell, not something you could replace with Spellcraft.

In the end though, it's just outright cooler not to see everything readily. It adds uncertainty, tension, risk and the opportunity for underhanded RP. And what Silvarus said: walking Christmas trees aren't cool.


Spellcraft lets your recognize a spell as it's being cast. Admited, that's likely through recognizing somantic and verbal components. But Epic uses of it +50 and +70 of it let you determine the properties of an item just by examining it. I don't see why the same couldn't be done to a person standing in front of you. *shrug* That's just my opinion though.
Author:  Very_Svensk [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 23:19 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
...Could invoke a 'Randomiser'. To randomize the VFX for each spell.

...Now that's something to think of.
Author:  Mahtan [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 23:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
No, its wasted time and effort. Randomized VFX make no sense either.

As I said in the other topic on this same VFX discussion. Things work as they are right now. The Devs and Scripters have much better things to focus time and effort on then this.(Fixing the crashing problems and bugs present in the balance changes) No matter how "simple" the change would be for this. Seeing VFX of spells is not game breaking as some of the current issues that need to be addressed.

If you see VFX you see them. Been that way since day one, guys.
I don't see how being worried about Balance changes effecting IC matters so much but VFX of spells suddenly vanishing doesn't. :?
Author:  drahgon [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 23:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Glyph wrote:
only thing that looks anything like GS is ioun stones, and only the purple ones are confusing.


and epic mage armor
Author:  Glyph [ Wed, Oct 27 2010, 23:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
I don't think changing the effects is a good idea, or removing them. either way for a wizard it mean relying on the status bar alone for counterspells or what they have cast, and if there are no visuals at all, you can't tell who's buffed and who's either pure melee or simply not buffed, or effected, or poisoned, etc.

like I says the only one that looks the same as GS other than regular sanctuary which lasts all of 9 seconds, is ioun stones that are purple, and that could be fixed by making it one particle floating instead of trailed, though I can't say I know how to change the script to make it do that, particles are a bit confusing.
Author:  Liz [ Thu, Oct 28 2010, 0:45 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
boobookittyscrew wrote:
It seems when the game change is good...no one bothers to ask about how to RP the technical change....but when the change is not to their liking, all of sudden, the "RP aspect" of the game is questioned.

This thread should be removed or simply added to ALL the other questions/complaints/etc that were in the original post about the changes...

I have to say that this comment gets a bit under my skin. I have no serious problem with any of the changes as they currently stand, and I did not say or imply in any way that the changes were "not to my liking." I specifically and clearly stated in my OP that I was not trying complain about the changes, I was just pondering their IC ramifications. I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth, or thoughts into my head, thank you.

Having said all that, I note that this thread had somehow been diverted into a discussion of whether spells are or should be identifiable IC from their VFX. I don't have any opinion on that, and since my original question has been given an official answer from a DM, I'd have no problem with this thread being locked down.
Author:  Rosencrantz [ Thu, Oct 28 2010, 1:16 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
WAIT! How do I turn vfx off? That would be swell!
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Thu, Oct 28 2010, 1:19 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
The VFX are there because this is a Video Game and not PnP. In PnP you have a handy little notepad, a pen and a few thousand sheets of stats to keep track of whats going on. In NWN, you have what you see.

Removing the CR was a good step. Removing the VFX is stupid. Its a video game. If you don't like the VFX, turn them off in the nwn.ini.
Author:  Garnith [ Thu, Oct 28 2010, 2:16 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
Kinda torn here. Removing the VFX could be neat, would help reduce the sudden burst of lag I tend to get when some super-buffed mage wanders into my line of sight, and could be replaced with some system to allow magic "sensing" to still occur (Rainbow glows, start with none, one buff is red glow, 2 is orange, etc, up to violet).

But that might be a bit hard to impliment...

As for the RPing of changed spells, I'm lucky enough that none of my characters have any of the spells nerfed. *Dances*
Author:  Galenson [ Thu, Oct 28 2010, 2:29 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
[edit] Wrong topic to comment. [/edit]
Author:  Mahtan [ Thu, Oct 28 2010, 2:33 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
You will still lag. The lag is actually largely from the effects being added. As you see that person on screen, you need to load all the effects on that dude so your game knows that dude has x buffs on. The VFX is a small factor and VFX lag it is mostly lag on your side, not the server. The scripts of the Buffs, lag the server.

I hope that made sense... Basically Lag and VFX effect only you. A milling buff scripts going is when you get the server errors all over saying "ZOMG TOO MUCH **** GOING ON IN THIS AREA!*
Author:  Lascivar [ Thu, Oct 28 2010, 12:05 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
I personally don't mind the VFX on spells. I walk around with all my non-VFX spells cast on me 90% of the time (as a Cleric there's alot :P) and they suffice for most hunting etc. I only bother casting the extra spells if conflict arises or I -really- need to survive against something difficult.
Author:  erroch [ Thu, Oct 28 2010, 14:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
I wouldn't mind looking less like a christmas tree as a wizard, but really. It's what we have, it's what we've always had, so meh.

Back to the topic, quite a few of us have been RPing this being a change, and are using the change as a basis for more roleplay.

Our IC summary so far: The weave shifted, this stuff happens. Why, we're still working on that.

I think we've been through every non-undeath related spell in our regime looking for other differences and poor Tuomas and Zelly have been on the recieving end of "dozens" of various big green clown hands.

Really, our characters don't have to know the why's of it. It just happened. We woke up and stuff worked differently. Considering Fabian and I didn't read the announcement forum, we also found out about the changes while hunting ICly as well, which was rather amusing.

We discovered it while trying to quaff a heal potion while tensored and fighting illithids. We didn't even notice the other tensors changes. We at first thought Bruce was just a bit off his game (read: unlucky miss rolls.)

I know, this makes less sense for dev critters, but I guess it's still a -massive- blow, so I haven't really given that end much thought.
Author:  Jes [ Thu, Oct 28 2010, 14:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: IC Etiquette for OOC Spell Nerfs?
I've already RP'ed the Dev Crit change with my Zelly. She has ranged Dev (which works now, yay!), so situating to fit the mechanics was not difficult. It didn't make sense for an arrow that could once kill with one shot due to being very well-placed to knock down, blind, and deafen someone now.

So I started RP'ing that she changed her game and started putting blunts on all of her arrows. Now when she hits just the right spot (probably on the head/helmet somewhere) it knocks them for a loop.

She likes this technique.
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