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Healpack Alternative
https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50709		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Pony [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 11:36 AM ]
Post subject:  Healpack Alternative
I found this on the vault and instantly liked it as it makes heal kits more realistic and less like in an ego-shooter. It also has the benefit of not outright curing poisons and diseases, and hence giving them a tad more effect, even if they can still be countered by restorations and so forth. Anyway, here the stuff is:

Quote:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Scripts.Detail&id=3103

This special "Healer's Kit" script is meant to be an alternative/replacement for the standard Bioware Healer's Kits.

-Healing is capped at 75% of the Target's MAX HP. (You can patch up a person, but it takes time for them to fully heal, aka rest)
-HP Restoration = (Heal Skill) + d2(Kit Level)
-Instead of outright Curing Poisons and Diseases, kits will apply Fortitude Save Bonuses vs. Disease/Poison (Amount Depends on Kit Level). The saves are for resisting and shaking off the disease/poison.
-Kit Effectiveness decreases in Combat and when the target's health is very low. It is best to use a kit on the target before their health drops below 25% and while out of combat.(It is harder to patch up someone in combat or when they are already suffering extreme injuries.)
Author:  Strawberry Stallion [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 11:45 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
I like the kits as they are now.
Author:  Spirit of Rock [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 12:07 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
I don't, they're unrealistic and annoying especially when you see them spammed on someone to save their life. I'd happily see an alternative put in place, though I feel I'll be the minority and for fear of huge negative reactions nothing will change.
Author:  Yurell [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 12:23 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
I don't see how this improves things at all tbh.
Author:  Pony [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 12:25 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Be as kind as to elaborate?
Author:  Silvarus [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 12:27 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
I'm all for it
Author:  Spirit of Rock [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 12:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Probably because it's unrealistic to apply what is supposed to be a kit of bandages and other healing equipment/salves in the space of 2 seconds, and more often than not in the middle of a battle. While being 'unrealistic' might not be the strongest point you could put forward due to the many other oddities we're faced with in-game, some people do feel that an alternative could be suggested to improve the situation as it's difficult to effectively roleplay slamming on a bandage mid-fight which makes your buddy shrug off that critical hit from a warhammer to his skull which almost killed him.
Author:  Roppi [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 12:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Fix heal potions first imo.
Author:  Silvarus [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 12:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Roppi wrote:
Fix heal potions first imo.

Its being worked on already.
Author:  ticket [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 12:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
KrautBoy wrote:
Healing is capped at 75% of the Target's MAX HP. (You can patch up a person, but it takes time for them to fully heal, aka rest)


A part of me likes the idea of how it adds difficulty / a sense of realism / depth to the mechanics of healthkits.

But it's also a nerf on my characters that have heal as a skill and that's going to hurt them. For that reason a part of me doesn't want this.

If it's implemented, sure the latter part of me will bitch and moan, but I'll adapt and move on. It's not a big deal. I'm neutral about this though I think this would pan out much better if heal potions & greater restorations are re-thinked along with this. Good luck trying to convince the others though.
Author:  Spirit of Rock [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 12:41 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
KrautBoy wrote:
-HP Restoration = (Heal Skill) + d2(Kit Level)


But this would make the Heal skill much more useful to use Heal Kits effectively, as anyone untrained won't be able to gain that much benefit from them? Especially if that replaces the Take 20 you get when healing out of combat.
Author:  Selmak [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 12:44 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
The Bioware healkits are hardcoded.

They're incredibly annoying because although they weigh a bit more than an average cure potion, they generally out-cure a cure potion and give more HP for your GP. And because they're so cheap and readily available, people buy lots and spam them to avoid having anyone die in combat. You can buy nearly forty basic heal kits for the price of a Raise Dead scroll, that says everything.

Then there's the rapid curing of diseases and poisons, something which is usually only possible with magic. It doesn't get rid of any ability damage, but even a bog standard Healing Kit +1 can remove poison at much less cost than a potion of Antidote.

These should have been gone ages ago.
Author:  ticket [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 12:46 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
I don't really care about those characters that don't have heal skill. Chances are they're chugging potions anyways. It affects my characters who have heal skill because now, they can't fully heal their companions, summons, familiars, etc.

This would be great for characters that have abilities that give bonus HP though. As they could effectively heal themselves past 75% HP.
Author:  Roppi [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 13:00 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Heal kits are only great at the lower levels with zero investment due to the take 20.

As much as I can tell, they are hardly broken or used in the late game.
Max possible hp restored is 127 + 20. That's 147. To hit that figure, it requires an investment far more draining on a PC that say, a melee cleric that gets heal as an added bonus alongs with 200+ other goodies the class already provides.

A level 30 has 200+ hp at least. on avg, 300.

If anything, Heal, mass heal and greater restore needs abit of fixing instead of having heal kits nerfed.
I just think the priorities are are set wrong. Why nerf heal kits? oO
Author:  Silent2001 [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 13:21 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
I agree with Roppi, nerfing healkits is just a waste of resources considering at level 30 people just chug heal potions. If anything, cap heal/mass heal/greater restore at 150 hit points, maybe even one hundred.
Author:  Silvarus [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 13:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Arguing that a simple thing should not be fixed because there are larger and harder problems out there is not logically consistent.
Author:  Xaviera [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 13:30 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
_Cairn Reborn_ wrote:
KrautBoy wrote:
-HP Restoration = (Heal Skill) + d2(Kit Level)
But this would make the Heal skill much more useful to use Heal Kits effectively, as anyone untrained won't be able to gain that much benefit from them? Especially if that replaces the Take 20 you get when healing out of combat.

I like it. I'd personally put a larger modifier in there, though, like d4/kit level.

Silvarus wrote:
Roppi wrote:
Fix heal potions first imo.
Its being worked on already.

Especially in combination with this.
Author:  Roppi [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 15:07 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Selmak: Heal kits remove poison but not the stat damage that has already been done. Not a very good comparison. When Im scrimping and saving, I use a lesser restore over an antidote anyways.


Silvarus: The point youre missing is, this addition would be pretty redundant when ~80% of the server is using heal pots and spells while the other 20% are lowbies scrimping gold when levelling.
Should the lowbies be penalised? I think not.
Also, it is logically sound to first fix the bigger problems that have a greater impact of the server and are likely to cause gameplay changes before tackling the small stuff. Should this be part of a bunch of sweeping changes, the changes should be known before this is implemented thus allowing one to factor in those changes for balancing.
Not too different from dusting the furniture before vacuuming the floor and not the other way round.
Author:  Spirit of Rock [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 15:21 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Roppi wrote:

Also, it is logically sound to first fix the bigger problems that have a greater impact of the server and are likely to cause gameplay changes before tackling the small stuff. Should this be part of a bunch of sweeping changes, the changes should be known before this is implemented thus allowing one to factor in those changes for balancing.
Not too different from dusting the furniture before vacuuming the floor and not the other way round.


A fair point, but you could also argue that the heal kit change would 'test the waters' so to speak; if all goes smoothly then perhaps more trust would be placed in any further changes to healing equipment. In addition, you've said that the heal potion changes would also cause gameplay changes, meaning more work to edit which might have to be reversed if things go pear-shaped. A scientist wouldn't test a brand new drug on a human straight away; they'd start off smaller so if things go wrong they can modify or scrap the drug if it's too dangerous.

analogies are fun
Author:  Silent2001 [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 15:33 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
So that brings forth the question of why lowbies should be the test subjects and not the maxed level characters hoarding heal pots?
Author:  Spirit of Rock [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 15:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Something along the lines of that, in my experience, it seems that the high levels hoarding heal pots are quite influential in stalemating decisions which would work against them? I'm not completely sure in this area, I'll admit; someone else who's had further dealings with this sort of thing could comment on this with more authority than I, but if heal pots and greater restos et cetera got nerfed tomorrow (fairly harshly but not unreasonably so) I would be fairly sure there'd be a big outcry, if not on the forums then in-game, and people would get pissy about it.
Author:  Selmak [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 16:04 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
At present, even if someone is on the ground (below 1 HP) being gored to death, you can still intervene medically. There is this assumption that you can fend off whatever is causing the injury and treat the injury just enough in that round for the patient to get up.

Six seconds is not a lot of time. I can think of a few things you could do in that time which might save someone's life (a shot of adrenaline straight to the heart, say) but the most you can do for a wound in that time is to apply pressure and prevent further bleeding. You cannot really prevent further bleeding or even maintain pressure when the patient is being attacked.

It doesn't have to be about making things more difficult for the newbie. You could make this new healing kit more economical than the current healing kits, so long as it leaves a niche for magical healing, which is best supplied either by potions or caster. Right now, as late as level 10, it's heal kit spam ftw because the actual cure potions give such an unreliable rate of healing they aren't worth the vials they come in. If instead they're able to get you up to 100% HP, then at least they will have some use.
Author:  Colapops [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 16:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Oh boy another proposed change that really doesn't have any need that will make leveling more boring and obnoxious than it is now. I can't wait for this arbitrary limitation to go into effect!

I wish I understood the thought process that leads people on these forums to suggest removing/heavily altering nearly everything that makes playing this game tolerable/less annoying. Why not just find a hardcore server?
Author:  Ramika [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 16:13 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
I agree with Selmak for the most part, but I still think they should be left alone. Healkits have kind of a wavering rate of heal themselves in combat, and the way they are now, are cheaper to buy as a lowbie than the potions. If the heal pots are already getting changed, just leave the kits alone. As people have pointed out, most people stop using them when they start hitting higher levels anyway, as they don't have the same rate of healing as a heal pot does (Unless they have a heal score, and having a character with a heal score, that does get kind of obnoxious after awhile).
Author:  Dwagin [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 16:15 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Leave it aloooone.
Author:  brooksthegreat [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 17:09 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
What does this add to the server or the hunting experience to make it more worthwhile? Yes, healkits as they are are unrealistic, but HP isn't a realistic measure of anything. In a world absolutely filled with healing magic, nerfing the mundane alternative doesn't seem to change anything to me.

Well, actually, it will just make "heal" more of an RP/flavor skill than one used in combat.
Author:  MoshingChris [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 17:30 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Other things in discussion right now point to this not being something I would add to the increasing backlog.

In effect a "No" to this change, not because I think its bad, but because I'd prefer to get other things cleared up first.
Author:  Pony [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 17:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Righto, I will bump it when the other things are done being discussed.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 17:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Characters should not be penalized for attempting to use healing that isn't "lolHeal"

110% against this.
Author:  Strawberry Stallion [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 18:03 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Colapops wrote:
Oh boy another proposed change that really doesn't have any need that will make leveling more boring and obnoxious than it is now. I can't wait for this arbitrary limitation to go into effect!

I wish I understood the thought process that leads people on these forums to suggest removing/heavily altering nearly everything that makes playing this game tolerable/less annoying. Why not just find a hardcore server?

I concur.
Author:  Selmak [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 18:17 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Depressing stuff removed. Huzzah!
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 18:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Uh, people think about it all the time. Selmak, can you make a post that isn't depressing or insulting or generally complaining about everything under the sun? This is a serious question. I could replace pretty much every instance of "Healkit" with "potion" in your post and get basically the same result. There's nothing wrong with healkits: The fact that they're both heavier AND less effective than potions AND require 33 skill points AND decent wisdom means there's absolutely no need to nerf them at all.
Author:  Brighti [ Sat, Sep 04 2010, 22:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
.... Just no.

I understand the want for realism, But the way I see is at level 3-5 you don't wanna be dying right at the beggining of the game. Especially if your new to the server or roleplay 'I died the other day, but i'm better now'...Nyeh.
Author:  Selmak [ Sun, Sep 05 2010, 13:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
TormakSaber wrote:
Selmak, can you make a post that isn't depressing or insulting or generally complaining about everything under the sun? This is a serious question.


Yes. It's just this forum that gives me cause to complain about everything, insult other people, and generally make things depressing. I'm all smiles and grins anywhere else.

I could just blame everyone else for perpetuating the negative environment where it's just easier to be blunt, insulting and obnoxious, but I did help make it happen, and so long as people keep making discussions that get everyone fed up, people are going to just mark the entire forum as read without reading it because basically it isn't worth participating any more.

There's your serious answer. Have a nice day.
Author:  Silvarus [ Sun, Sep 05 2010, 13:56 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Selmak needs a break.
Author:  NinjaClarinet [ Sun, Sep 05 2010, 18:38 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Agreed with Tormack. If anything, I'd argue that heal kits could use a small buff, but as someone said, they are hardcoded. Can they come any higher than +10?
Author:  TormakSaber [ Mon, Sep 06 2010, 1:58 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
They can. Fun fact, a +50 heal kit costs 2 million gold.

For 1.
Author:  corypx [ Mon, Sep 06 2010, 2:01 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
TormakSaber wrote:
They can. Fun fact, a +50 heal kit costs 2 million gold.

For 1.


hmmmmm one +50 heal kit or 500 heal potions..... not sure one to pick.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Mon, Sep 06 2010, 2:03 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Yeah, and that's the bioware base price, before merchant markup.
Author:  Strawberry Stallion [ Mon, Sep 06 2010, 4:09 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Bioware is one crafty business.
Author:  GreatPigeon [ Mon, Sep 06 2010, 5:46 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
corypx wrote:
TormakSaber wrote:
They can. Fun fact, a +50 heal kit costs 2 million gold.

For 1.


hmmmmm one +50 heal kit or 500 heal potions..... not sure one to pick.



Using that math, how much does a harm potion cost?
Author:  billytheid [ Mon, Sep 06 2010, 9:40 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Silvarus wrote:
Arguing that a simple thing should not be fixed because there are larger and harder problems out there is not logically consistent.


we need a 'climate change' in the healing arena
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Mon, Sep 06 2010, 11:14 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

It ain't broken, so don't fix it.
Author:  Pony [ Mon, Sep 06 2010, 11:57 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
I can not stand that comment, as it suggests that no matter the quality of the thing, as long as it works, it should not be touched. I do not support change for the sake of change, but that is no solution at all. It is idiotic. Epic Mummy Dust, Epic Dragon Knight and Divine Might all were altered even if they were not broken. Heal is being looked at as Silv stated, it is not broken either.

I can accept if the current version of the script may be too extreme, even if more real, and hence would not be fun for those who enjoy the casual gaming aspect. I can accept that healpacks are underpowered and if they are changed, they should instead be made better, like Tormak said. I can accept that it is perfectly balanced or well enough so that there are more pressing issues and hence those are looked at instead, like Mosh stated. But comments like "If it aint broken, do not fix it" are no help at all.

Anyway, seeing Mosh posted above and already stated this wont be discussed until the other fixes that are being worked on currently are done, this topic can be locked and opened when it can be looked at.
Author:  Terra_777 [ Mon, Sep 06 2010, 12:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
NWNX can remove the heal-kits ability to cure diseases and poisons.

And my hands is covered in heal-potion guts.
Author:  TeroSNS [ Mon, Sep 06 2010, 12:21 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Silvarus wrote:
Roppi wrote:
Fix heal potions first imo.

Its being worked on already.

What are they gonna change?
Author:  Silvarus [ Mon, Sep 06 2010, 13:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
TeroSNS wrote:
Silvarus wrote:
Roppi wrote:
Fix heal potions first imo.

Its being worked on already.

What are they gonna change?

The phrase ''working on'' implies that I do not know. :)
Author:  TeroSNS [ Tue, Sep 07 2010, 8:13 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
Silvarus wrote:
The phrase ''working on'' implies that I do not know. :)

then don't give false hope! D':
Author:  Silvarus [ Tue, Sep 07 2010, 8:14 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
TeroSNS wrote:
Silvarus wrote:
The phrase ''working on'' implies that I do not know. :)

then don't give false hope! D':

What do you mean false hope? Something will be done, it is just not known what and when.
Author:  billytheid [ Tue, Sep 07 2010, 9:29 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Healpack Alternative
climb every mountain... ford every stream...
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