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hircine

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 18:17 PM

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Joined: 10 Nov 2007

I've had debate both IC and OOC about Death Aspects every time they've been summoned.

To make it brief, are they, or are they not undead? And is there any way a Cleric or Paladin would be able to test such a thing?

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Dramatic_Prince

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 18:19 PM

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Joined: 11 Sep 2008

hircine wrote:

To make it brief, are they, or are they not undead? And is there any way a Cleric or Paladin would be able to test such a thing?

Lay on hands.

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hircine

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 18:24 PM

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Joined: 10 Nov 2007

They do get turned, but (Correct me if I'm wrong) I think it's only because mechanics-wise, they are the same. This is what gets me so confused

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Silvarus

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 18:25 PM

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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

hircine wrote:

They do get turned, but (Correct me if I'm wrong) I think it's only because mechanics-wise, they are the same. This is what gets me so confused

If they get turned, they are undead.

Ask your local kelemvorite, the answer usually is to smite just to be sure.

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GreatPigeon

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 18:26 PM

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Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK

Nuetral and Good summon outsiders. Evil summon undead. Kelemvorites summon outsiders regardless.

If it has a heavy flail and wearing a robe, its not undead.

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jimbono1

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 19:15 PM

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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: England

Also Velsharan summon undead regardless.

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Glyph

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 20:44 PM

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Joined: 10 Jun 2010

kelemvorites summon outsiders?? you could have fooled me. you mean celestial outsiders right?

I'd rather not comment on what I think about this sort of RP, paladins are far too pvp heavy with it. lawful my tooth, just like I said ICly.

Silvarus

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 21:08 PM

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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

Glyph wrote:

Umm... What exactly is said here? I seriously failed to keep track of the message.

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Glyph

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 21:21 PM

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Joined: 10 Jun 2010

kelemvorites are forever cussing shadowdancers and protecting the forest as of late, so I assume shadows are on the -bad necromancer- list in kellies eyes, though SD shadows are not undead.

I have to assume they summon celestials, if not, I can now legitimatly call them all hypocrites ICly once I discover the kellies book of laws ICly. I have no complaint I just prefer my freedoms in character and dislike being wrongly accused of things. =)

Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 21:22 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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????????

HUH?

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Silvarus

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 21:23 PM

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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

Glyph wrote:

This still makes no sense. Are you even more drunk than I am at the moment?

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Glyph

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 21:34 PM

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Joined: 10 Jun 2010

I don't drink anymore ? O_o

kelemvorites, it has been said they summon outsiders, is that exclusivly angels and other celestials, or do they slyly summon planars such as shadows and elementals aswell?

"- Creation, animation or conjuration of Undead" <-- high heresy, oocly, from the icly book. this doesn't nessicarrily include planars but ICly you could have fooled me from kellies general attitued toward...alot of summons and shifts and such.

Silvarus

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 21:37 PM

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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

Glyph wrote:

Kelemvorites have no issues with any kinds of outsider summons which includes but is not limited to celestials, devils, demons, slaadi, elementals, paraelementals, SD shadows (and SD shadows only as ANY AND ALL other shadows are undead[IC confusion about such an obscure exception is understandable]), extraplanar adventurers, extraplanar humans, extraplanar pidgeons and most of all extraplanar chickens. The Death Domain summon for Kelemvorite clerics is an outsider from Kelemvor's home plane, and is definitely not a celestial of any kind.

They worry about undeath and undeath alone.

Oh, and only a few of the Kelemvorites even are Paladins by the way.

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Last edited by Silvarus on Sat, Aug 21 2010, 21:41 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Glyph

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 21:40 PM

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Joined: 10 Jun 2010

i'm not sure thats entirely accurate, demons and devils they do have a problem with from what i've seen, if they themselves are summoning them, well, blow me down. maybe I need to read a bit more about the kellies.

Silvarus

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 21:41 PM

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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

Glyph wrote:

All GOOD PEOPLE have issues with summoning fiends. Many kelemvorites are good aligned, many are not. This part depends on the character and their alignment, not their religion. Kelemvor himself is Lawful Neutral and has LG, LN, LE and TN followers.

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Glyph

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 21:45 PM

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Joined: 10 Jun 2010

excelent, now I know.

I do have one more question, regarding my pirate necro guy, when I pray my party (in the stats log part) come up as [debug] 'PC' is undead, does this mean anything in particular or is it that they gain the death domain bonuses from me?

(narbenon is somewhat sly like null, but unlike null does summon undead in places nearby at least, civilised populations. haven't even considered raising in cordor square or the forest, that would be suicide.)

Dergaii

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 22:03 PM

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Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Waffles, Beer & Chocolate

Start healing everyone, including the suspicious one. Instant answer if it fades away :lol:

Jes

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 22:15 PM

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Joined: 23 Aug 2006
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I see a long thread that has a lot of text about things that should have been said/done/left in-character!

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Silvarus

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 22:24 PM

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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

Koragi Mydnite wrote:

I see a long thread that has a lot of text about things that should have been said/done/left in-character!

The players will have to know what they are dealing with or there will be a lot of OOC frustration. I call BS on any and all claims that some things should only be discussed IC.

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BrainSplitter

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 22:34 PM

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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia

Everything should be discussed IC where possible. You don't OOCly need to know if it's an undead or not. What matters is what your character believes it to be. The only reason you would need to know OOC is so you can (in)validate your character's or faction's IC actions in an OOC Context.

In short;

Stay IC.

And no, we aren't going to confirm whether it's undead or planar or whatnot.

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762

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 22:49 PM

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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida

....uhhhh. Wouldn't the summoner know?

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QPR

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 23:06 PM

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Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway

There are quite a few examples of summoners who has not had enough knowledge of what they were doing, and thus suffered for it.

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Yurell

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 23:19 PM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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QPR wrote:

There are quite a few examples of summoners who has not had enough knowledge of what they were doing, and thus suffered for it.

I'm rather questionable about this ... I'd imagine they'd have to know at least some of what they are doing to cast a spell, and would recognise an entire school of magic at least.

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762

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 23:23 PM

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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida

Not to mention a cleric with Death domain would have some clue of what it entails.

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GreatPigeon

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 23:25 PM

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Joined: 04 May 2009
Location: London, UK

762 wrote:

Not to mention a cleric with Death domain would have some clue of what it entails.

This

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Goblin

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 23:33 PM

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Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Location: Scotland

I believe in the roleplay, IC knowledge. If it looks like a zombie, walks like a zombie, and tastes like a zombie then I'm fairly unconvinced both OOC and IC when I'm told that it's a duck. If it looks like a zombie, walks like a zombie and tastes like a zombie - and the information I'm given IC is "Well, it's an aspect of death - it never existed as a life-form, it wasn't raised from a corpse" then I'm happy to go along with it.

I think at least there's merit in allowing an IC explanation for something that, mechanically speaking, is undead - so that every encounter doesn't end in pointless PVP.

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BrainSplitter

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 23:34 PM

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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia

There are many machinations in the world (And this is doubly true for Forgotten Realms) wherein the characters are unaware (in typical settings, IE; where the players cannot access the Monster Manual or FRCS on a whim) of the finer details.

The best example of this is of course Shar, and the fact that not even her clerics know her objectives. Likewise, you summon something, you know you're summoning "A Balor". That does not mean, however, you automatically know you're summoning a Huge Outsider [Evil, Chaos, Tanar'ri, Extraplanar] with +39 AB. People casting Epic Dragon Knight probably don't know how a dragon works, so much as "Chromatics at Bad; Metallics are Good" and "They breathe elements".

You could really go on and on perpetually, and while PnP =/= NwN, it doesn't much change that, really, you don't need to know everything OOCly. Why short-change a potential for RP or conflict by simply busting out your Monsters of Faerun or checking the forums to find out the alignment of your Summon Creature IX? Other than, of course, for the OOC affirmation of self that comes from being able to say, OOCly, "You're wrong; I'm right". Which is really the only reason for knowing OOCly. Unless you intend to metagame it.

The fact the creature isn't actually in any books / is homebrew is pretty much for this very reason, btw. So you can't just bust out your lore books and go "Aha! I know what that is!"

Ultimately,however;

Stay IC. Find out IC.

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QPR

Posted: Sat, Aug 21 2010, 23:42 PM

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Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Location: Norway

Yurell wrote:

I'm rather questionable about this ... I'd imagine they'd have to know at least some of what they are doing to cast a spell, and would recognise an entire school of magic at least.

Knew some, yes, but not enough. This obviously only really applies to arcane spellcasters, and sorcerors in particular i would believe. Divine casters can't do jack shit without the blessing of their god, so I assume that whatever they summon are pre-approved by their god and described in detail by their clergy.

Though it probably does not happen to often, the idea of sorceror or wizard making mistakes during such a ritual, or summon something they only have a vauge idea of what is, seem quite plausible to me.

Zinovy

Posted: Sun, Aug 22 2010, 0:05 AM

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Joined: 10 Jun 2010

In D&D, a class is like something from the job system on Amia: a wizard has to seek things to grow in his craft. He has to know all the basics of weave manipulation from which the rest grows, which takes years of study and so on. Similarly, clerics are devoted to their gods and gain power through acts that value their god. But it's NWN: you pick a class as a method of killing things.

You can't expect people to know all the arcane stuff even if it's in their character's field, but people who choose to play "specialists" should know at least a little bit.

In D&D, depending on the class and the known rituals, I don't think casters are limited to 1 creature type per level of summoning, are they? Like a wizard can learn to summon a dire rat and a petal fey, it's just going to a different plane/place to bind it.

Last edited by Zinovy on Sun, Aug 22 2010, 0:07 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Yurell

Posted: Sun, Aug 22 2010, 0:06 AM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

*Shrugs* I guess wizards know less about what they're casting than I thought, if all they need is the name of what they want.

Edit: Obviously the need a bunch of magic words to do the summoning, of course, I meant in terms of identification

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Last edited by Yurell on Sun, Aug 22 2010, 0:29 AM, edited 1 time in total.

hircine

Posted: Sun, Aug 22 2010, 0:22 AM

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Joined: 10 Nov 2007

One of the main reasons I'm so curious about finding out is that I know there isn't a "Death Aspect" class in Nwn, but is this because of a short-sighting in the game makers, or because a death aspect is, in actuality an undead?

If it was the first, then of course the cleric death domain summon would have to be stuck under "Undead" which makes it vulnerable to Turn Undead and Lay on Hands, even though maybe in the lore of things, that shouldn't be happening.

With the majority of cases I've always said to the other player just because something is fact (Or as I'm finding out, fiction) doesn't mean their characters have to believe it. I'd be fine with a paladin smiting my Death Aspect, because I can understand that even if it -isn't- undead, their character might not know this, or might not believe words coming from a Ne'er-Do-Well Necromancer.

I'm not looking to find out to be abe to OOCly correct people, it's simply because -if- they are different things, and it was given the "Undead" class because it was the closest thing, then we should have some definitive answers as to what results things like Lay on Hands and Turn Undead would have. Or even if there's some other way of telling the difference between the two.

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BrainSplitter

Posted: Sun, Aug 22 2010, 0:35 AM

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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia

If Lay On Hands harms it; it harms it.
If Turn Undead turns it; it turns it.

WYSIWYG in this regard. Everything that's supposed to work on it, does; and the opposite. Whether that's because it is or isn't undead, or because of some unknown, external factor again comes down to IC reasoning.

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Silvarus

Posted: Sun, Aug 22 2010, 7:54 AM

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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe

My point about discussing things OOC still stands. Amia's only problem has always been and still is lack of communication. Not knowing why some characters do something is all fine and good in PnP but on Amia there is no DM to run the story most of the time and confusion usually comes up in conflicts between players. When two players have no clue on what the other one is doing and why they will get confused, frustrated and become more likely to ignite OOC drama than to think of how their character might react to a situation they are as clueless about as the player is.

Giving everything the player knows to the character is still fishy, but it is irrelevant when all we are talking about is should players communicate on an OOC level, and to that the answer is HELL YES.

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ClockworkRed

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 15:00 PM

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Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Nice city, good beer

Silvarus wrote:

hircine wrote:

They do get turned, but (Correct me if I'm wrong) I think it's only because mechanics-wise, they are the same. This is what gets me so confused

If they get turned, they are undead.

Ask your local kelemvorite, the answer usually is to smite just to be sure.

Isn't there a domain or feat that lets you turn outsiders, too.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 15:02 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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Planar turning.

Fayanthia

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 15:53 PM

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Joined: 21 Aug 2010
Location: In my head.

Zinovy wrote:

I agree with this till the point of a sorcerer/ress, since their magic is intuitive and natural, they tend to learn by trial and error, if something calls to them and they summon it, they may not necessarily know what it is, that's when a person's lore and spellcraft come into effect, the more he or she learns about the world and nature of magick, then the more they will control and learn from it.

Wizards I could see being similar to this but having access usually to tomes and grimoires and often under a tutor of sorts, will have the chance to learn more with what they are trying to cast/create, sorcerers/ress can also have access to this however when they are starting out, when they are young, it's more raw and uncontrolled magic, discipline takes process through the trial and error.

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Wilagins

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 17:51 PM

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Joined: 28 Nov 2009

Good/evil domain powers also allow for the turning of outsiders. Can be a pain if your high lvl cleric turns undead next to the aasimar paladin though.

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Death Aspect's, Undead or not?

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