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Picklock - useless or not?
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Author:  Dead [ Wed, Jul 21 2010, 15:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Picklock - useless or not?
I was thinking that instead of having "specific key" for every important doors, perhaps it could be turned to very high DC in picklocking. This would upgrade rogue RP and put some real usage into picklocking. Of course, roaming trough faction areas would still be DM supervised only. Just a thought.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Wed, Jul 21 2010, 15:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Yes.

brilliant suggestion!
Author:  Dwagin [ Wed, Jul 21 2010, 15:38 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Just because there are unique door keys on somethings does not preclude rogue RP.

Nab a DM and try it! There's more than one way to crack a nut.
Author:  Glyph [ Wed, Jul 21 2010, 17:56 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
this is one reason I am dreading making my rouge character, half the doors on amia are specific key only, and there's not always a free dm around. and bash, forget it.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Wed, Jul 21 2010, 18:05 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Pick lock is very useful. Most of the time if a door has the Specific Key property, it's because you're not supposed to get in their without finding the key IC or without a DM. It's needed.

There are plenty of "bash or pick" doors in some dungeon and crypt areas as well. And most of the time I've found that a little bit a lockpicking skill goes a lot longer way than bashing the door. I mean that in that to bash most of the doors, you gotta have a lot of strength and/or try a lot of times. But to pick the lock is usually a relatively low DC comparatively, especially given the Take 20.
Author:  Glyph [ Wed, Jul 21 2010, 18:12 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
I know exactly what you mean, three of us spent about ten mins bashing the orc door, I had an +6 str mod with a potion. we'll i'll give it my best shot but honestly i've never liked the doors. *buys +10 keys asap. when I make the guy anyways.*
Author:  Mobile Disco [ Wed, Jul 21 2010, 18:48 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
How many non-pp doors are there atm?
Author:  Glyph [ Wed, Jul 21 2010, 19:15 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
hey disco, nice holiday? (if your who I think ye be) =) i'm not entirely sure I haven't played a rouge but i've watched enough of em get fustrated in the past. one I can think of right off my head is the one in the cultist place on the right wall, and the one in the other part of the place in the other entrance where a web blocks you and that doors locked, at this point I went and found a rouge only to find "you need a key", this was about a year ago but the doors are pretty much the same I think. I don't remember the orc door being so hard before either but its not impossible, maybe a little overpowered for the ecl challenge of the place. (the boss door.)

imho and i've always had this opinion, unless its a faction place or keep or otherwise, rouges and fighters should be able to get through ANY door given enough skill/stats/tools. and I mean no disrespect but whats the point of key specific doors that have no key and can't be picked without a dm? (unless there is infact a key somewhere for that door.)

there was also one in the kobold lair which is marked underlake or somesuch, which is utterly locked once you get there due to a second door, again I think, key specific.

maybe its cause i'm human and i'm nearing the underdark places and drow only? idk i'll see how it goes when I make this character and let you know in more detail, some of this is semi outdated after all, I need to test it again. than again im not the OP so somethings up.
Author:  Zinovy [ Wed, Jul 21 2010, 19:21 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
I only know of one door in the orc cave and several in the Cordor crypts that have the bash/pick option. None in any epic areas that I've been to.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Wed, Jul 21 2010, 19:22 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Ah, I have an idea :idea: . Make the Tavern and Inn doors bashable/pickable.

Since people have houses both rentable and long-term now, there's no real reason to keep the "mundane" inn rooms as plot. If people really need to get to a place where they're completely secluded with no chance of entry, they got houses for that now. And at least with me, it's come up in RP before that someone locks him or herself in a tavern room, and the hulking +30 strength folk on the other side just have to stand there and gape at the awesome might of plot-plywood. :)
Author:  Glyph [ Wed, Jul 21 2010, 19:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
i've also been locked in by accident XD however I semi afk in there and wouldn't want someone to bash the door down while im "sleeping" // downstairs having a fag/cigarette(america) //
Author:  Ace of Swords [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 0:37 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
It's quite possible to make doors very hard to break, and I've seen it done where the best doors were a 100 DC pick lock and only the very best rogues could get them open. Generally it was done as such (when I have seen it done):

Doors that could be broken were very hard to break, and didn't exist in player-controlled areas since those usually relied on player security. It would be silly to have a door someone could beat on for ten minutes and break when in the middle of a populated fortress just because nobody was on from the faction. They all had DC 100 pick doors.

Important doors that could be picked had 100 DC to pick (or higher, in rare cases) and were of both the breakable and Plot Plywood categories. The rest all had DC 'tiers', up to 4, where DC bumped by 20 each time. So you'd have 20, 40, 60, 80, and the faction 100 doors. Tended to work out really well, and people actually ran security instead of hiding behind the plotlocked doors. :P
Author:  Vaylek [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 1:14 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Useless, IMO. There's just better skills to take. Not enough pickable locks on the server.
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 1:19 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Been discussed before I think.

I'm still for removing "key only" doors, unless they are opened with some eleborate mechanism, because it yet again destroys a core aspect of rogue RP, which Amia already shatters enough of IMHO.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 3:01 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
A rogue without lockpicking or trap disabling does not deserve to call themselves a rogue.
Author:  ainjyll [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 3:16 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
TormakSaber wrote:
A rogue without lockpicking or trap disabling does not deserve to call themselves a rogue.


Agreed.

I can think of a place off the top of my head that's good for roughly 2k worth of XP per reset if you place a few points in pick lock.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 3:56 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
I can think of a billion DM events ending in horrible death if they couldn't handle locks.
Author:  davis114 [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 4:06 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Case in point: The earlier expedition up the Crags chasing Morteguarde was nearly foiled by one locked door in the crypt.

Thirty epic characters, enough Weave-power to bring down a small city, and that one door whipped our arses.

Shining moment of mental prowess for all involved.
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 4:06 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
davis114 wrote:
Case in point: The earlier expedition up the Crags chasing Morteguarde was nearly foiled by one locked door in the crypt.

Thirty epic characters, enough Weave-power to bring down a small city, and that one door whipped our arses.

Shining moment of mental prowess for all involved.


And you still didn't have that knock spell.
Author:  HellScourge [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 6:48 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Knock only works on rather low locks though.
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 8:30 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
HellScourge wrote:
Knock only works on rather low locks though.

Inside joke.
Author:  Dead [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 9:43 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Well yes, doors can be bashed alright, but I think that it would be much more fun if people would actually seek someone "good with locks" to have them on important missions. DC 90-100 for important doors is alright. tbh, I'd place it on houses too. If there's a lock, it can be picked imo.

Quote:
I can think of a place off the top of my head that's good for roughly 2k worth of XP per reset if you place a few points in pick lock.


Yes, its alright place, but there's little joy in empty room locks grinding. Having every lock in the game pickable would bring huge amount of RP. I remember this event when some of evil guys were captured in Kohlingen keep. I menaged to sneak past the guards (DM supervised) but than got stuck at the inner gate doors becouse they were locked and noone was coming in/out.
Author:  Glyph [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 22:48 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
like i already said i seeked out a rouge and it failed, because most people headed to the sewers are level two...how in gods name do you hit a dc 100? i thought it capped at 40 =/
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 23:12 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Nope, Xal and Gil used to run around breaking DC 80+ locks in RP for Xals training back in the old days. Till RP happened.

Xal also used to be the go to guy for parties wanting to get into certain places on the isle, very big houses and deep dark crypts for example.
Author:  Azarius [ Thu, Jul 22 2010, 23:17 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
34 ranks + 14 dex mod + 50 from items + 20 take twenty + 10 thieves tools = 128 max?
Author:  Dead [ Fri, Jul 23 2010, 8:27 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Azarius wrote:
34 ranks + 14 dex mod + 50 from items + 20 take twenty + 10 thieves tools = 128 max?


Don't forget epic skill focus. And +5 from rogues cunning.
Author:  Azarius [ Fri, Jul 23 2010, 9:39 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
rogues cunning counts towards the item +50

though yes SP and ESF would indeed add +13
Author:  MoshingChris [ Sat, Jul 24 2010, 0:42 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Thieves tools count to the skillcap aswell i believe.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sat, Jul 24 2010, 1:39 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
I'mnot sure about that one, actually. Healkits don't, iirc.
Author:  Azarius [ Sat, Jul 24 2010, 1:41 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
yeah thieves kits don't.
Author:  BrainSplitter [ Sat, Jul 24 2010, 4:42 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Thieves Tools do not count towards the +50 Cap, as they're a mechanical +10 to the roll itself when you use the Open Lock function of them.
Author:  Gravemaskin [ Sat, Jul 24 2010, 7:35 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Yep they don't, as such a person with 33 open lock skill and say 14 dexmod can open ANY lock, technically..

33base skill +14dexmod = 47
+50 skill on items cap = 97
+10 tools = 107
take 20 roll = 127

Which is the absolute highest for a skill, if you cross over to 128 then it falls down to -127.
Author:  Lord-Hadeis [ Sat, Jul 24 2010, 8:24 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
I'm fully for having more doors that can be lock picked. Heck even if they just lead into some farmers house with 10gp to steal. I played a rogue over a year ago and back then I could barely find any door that could be picked. Really really disappointing. Even now, its once in a blue moon I stumble upon a door that could be picked, not that the character I play has a lot of skill in it, but that's beside the point.

I really think nearly every door should be pickable or with dm super vision one should have A chance to get past it. I've always wondered if every door in amia does actually lead somewhere, say those ruins next to the green lake have a tempel thing with doors that gives the standard need specific key message. I always wonder if that's because its say a fraction place that needs a fraction tool or something or if it just doesn't lead anywhere. With all those unpickable doors I really can't tell, which is a plain annoying in its own right.

At the very least interchange the "need specific key" message on doors with "you managed to pick the lock but the door seems barred from inside somehow" message.

Or steal an idea from another server. Keycode locks! Oldest one I know of is early 15th century (wouldn't be surprised if there are older ones). It would make it extremely hard but atleast you have a chance to guess it right or learn it from someone. Not a big chance because if one person needs to tell that code to another in game they will ofcourse be extremely lame adn go to tell. I mean who whispers anymore.
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Sat, Jul 24 2010, 8:55 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Have experimented with picking locks under DM supervision, you may not like what you come across xD.
Author:  Lord-Hadeis [ Sat, Jul 24 2010, 9:17 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Selvec Darkon wrote:
Have experimented with picking locks under DM supervision, you may not like what you come across xD.

I hope I don't! No fun in this going my way all the time.

Anyone remember Quest for Glory 1 / Hero's Quest? Break into the old ladies place, steal everyting, get tempted by the candel on the mantle piece. Why not take it? There's only a little black kitten guarding it. Then you take it, kitten gets angry magically shifts into a black panter and you're licked! Litterally!
Author:  Dead [ Sat, Jul 24 2010, 13:29 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
well those would be some more flavour advantages of course, but for a start, I'd just replace all doors with keyhole to be pickable. some doors have mechanical handle for opening, some require specific item to be placed in the socket, but most of the doors are with a keyhole.

EDIT: this could be a benefit to inventors and engeniers too. If someone wants maximum security, he will employ someone to build him mechanical doors or some very complicated lock.
Author:  Marriah [ Sun, Jul 25 2010, 15:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
I don't think all doors should be pickable, but I would definitely like to see more of them ... and mid to high DCs.
It would encourage more grouping and rp.
Author:  Dead [ Mon, Jul 26 2010, 19:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
not all doors. but all doors with keyhole.
Author:  Lord-Hadeis [ Mon, Jul 26 2010, 19:49 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Certainly a lot more then is now the case.
Author:  Blink [ Mon, Jul 26 2010, 20:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Didn't read all of this but here's my two cents:

Imo it would be awesome if houses that are perma locked have a chance of opening -just like the burglary system- and enable you to enter them hidden, invisible or however you want to...

In there you could find some treasure, or, if you're lucky and beat a high dc, a lot of treasure. This could be a system just like the loot system with low, med and high end loot.

Ofcourse you could get into trouble as well...

Eh?
Author:  Kudark [ Wed, Jul 28 2010, 22:54 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
If it has doors and/or windows, that means there is a way out. If there is a way out, then there is a way in as well.
Very few things are impenetrable, a skilled rogue should be able to get in most places within reason. There are always exceptions to rules (just ask a woman), but a very high level rogue has a certain amount of skill, experience, and finesse which goes a long way.

I highly agree that more Amian doors should be able to be picked, I find it very frustrating knowing I have the skill to pick this run down door lock, but it has to be opened with a specific key?...that's what the hell my tools are for!

And I read it said here that: "A rogue without lockpicking or trap disabling does not deserve to call themselves a rogue."
This is an offensive remark,
I have at least two P&P rogues that couldn't pick a lock or disable a device to save their lives, but don't look behind you cuz you won't see me until the steel is protruding from your chest...or back, as the case may be, either way you are dead. Oh, and don't even try to lie to a master liar, because one of those rogues can sense your motives even before you do...while he's bluffing ;) (Sense Motive is a 3.5 rogue skill btw)
A rogue can take on many forms, thus the extreme variety of skills available to them, there are so many options.
Don't ever let anyone tell you a rogue has to be able to pick and disable to be a rogue.

As a side note, most parties or adventuring groups need someone adept at picking locks and disabling devices.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Wed, Jul 28 2010, 23:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
And that is typically the rogue. The only other class that comes near the skil reqs in the standard rlebooks is the bard or the ranger.

Ergo a rogue that can't pick locks or handle traps does not deserve to be called a rogue. It's practically in the class description. In fact, I think it is.
Author:  Dead [ Thu, Aug 05 2010, 11:34 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
so, is it going to happen anytime soon?
Author:  Glyph [ Thu, Aug 05 2010, 16:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
after much trial and error, and guesswork, I think for one rentahouses should be pickable at the very least with a DM present, and I haven't tried -that door- at wakueen yet but I am assuming thats faction aswell.

so far the highest DC door thats pickable I haven't got through is 60, and I am noticing alot more doors than there used to be that are indeed pickable.

I deffinatly think there should be a few places, like the three houses in the delta (near the casino) that should be unlockable and either have a chest or something to gain gold but risk waking the occupants, or something, inside some of these houses, instead of giving you the "specific key required" note, also the one in the crypts that used to be permalock is no longer permalocked, whoever did that, legend =)

(also for the benefit of fighters, the orc door needs its bash DC lowered abit imho, I had +5 str and struggled, with glyph.)
Author:  Dead [ Sun, Oct 10 2010, 19:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
*bamp*
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Oct 10 2010, 20:18 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Why did you bump this? Unnecessary entirely.
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Sun, Oct 10 2010, 23:05 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Probably because the suggestion the TC made was never really touched on. Beyond Disco asking how many Non-PP doors are on the server. Not really something any player can answer, and something he'd probably be in a better postion to answer then us.

Hell of a lot of player discussion generally pushed the topic away from exactly what was suggested/asked.
Author:  billytheid [ Mon, Oct 11 2010, 0:45 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Having played rogue PCs almost exclusivly since I started on Amia I can tell you that there are a hell of a lot of key only doors. I actually spent a while hunting for pickable doors just to see what was behind them; they took more finding then the unpickable doors.

Point there is that it would be awesome if people had to take security seriously. Nerfing faction area guards in every respect would be great as well. They should not be anywhere near an epic level character. This way you'd need spotters and strong arm folks to stay safe.
Author:  Procyon02 [ Mon, Oct 11 2010, 1:18 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
billytheid wrote:
Having played rogue PCs almost exclusivly since I started on Amia I can tell you that there are a hell of a lot of key only doors. I actually spent a while hunting for pickable doors just to see what was behind them; they took more finding then the unpickable doors.

Point there is that it would be awesome if people had to take security seriously. Nerfing faction area guards in every respect would be great as well. They should not be anywhere near an epic level character. This way you'd need spotters and strong arm folks to stay safe.



I like that idea myself, but the only real issue with that is you would have to have at least one player or another on 24/7 to keep watch, and as this isn't real life it's not as if you can hire people to make sure every shift is covered. As much as we like to try and believe everything can be RPed out there are times when through either mechanics or the fact that this is people's recreation time some things that would make this game truer to life will have to take a side note to what is more feasible to accomplish. Would I like to see every lock pickable and all faction guards hired PCs, yes, do I think that makes for a fair balance to create a real life situation in the game world, unfortunately no. But I would still like to see some more pickable locks even if they only lead to plain houses, but at the same time that means more locations for the servers and more work for the dev team. So if it can be done without tipping the balance I'm all for it, but if it would detract from the rest of what already is already in development for an excellent server then I can live without it.
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Mon, Oct 11 2010, 1:32 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Picklock - useless or not?
Not true.

Someone breaks into a faction area when people aren't online. Okay, fine. What are they going to do?
Nothing really, because there is nobody to RP the stuff, there is no faction members present, there is no papers with plans littered about, they have literally broken into an empty building that holds no value to them at this time. There is also NPC's, so they can't break into the area without DM supervision, otherwise they are ignoring the NPC's. Decrating shrines? Sure, but only if a DM is online to supervise, and he/she will just turn and say "This situation doesn't look very fair. So I'm going to say no." or "Let me spice things up by throwing a few surprises ahead".

Finally, there is the high DC. We aren't talking High DC lock of 50. We are talking in the 100's. Locks that can only be opened by people whom are dedicated lockpicks. Characters who have sacraficed combat ability and efficency for the ability to break locks. These same people are probably going to be of a nature that has them charge rediculous prices to break said locks.

So if you have a meeting in your faction area, and you require complete privacy, you have people watch the doors. Simple as. No need to over think things. It also provides another money sink as NPC's and their training require money and RP. Possibly even including the use of the job system for specfic jobs that work towards outfitting and training people.

All I can see from this suggestion is good. Very good. Abusive use can easily be thrown back by a simple things as stated above. Nobody should be sitting in Keep Invinciable.
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