AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - On Modern Attitudes and Taboos: Another mild rant

Last edited by Logicality on Mon, Jun 27 2011, 20:32 PM, edited 1 time in total.

EDIT: To future readers, I offer my sincerest apologies for this topic. Rest assured I have learned.
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I'll be blunt here, something I've been trying to avoid doing lately: my number one pet peeve in Amia is the overwhelming feeling I often get that I'm not in another world with entirely different principles and well-known realities, but a mere fantasy-themed reflection of our own world. Everybody has got an opinion, and those opinions are all too similar to ones commonly accepted among the majority of people in 1st world countries in the 21st century. Racism is wrong, all men (sentient creatures) are born equal (and neither good nor evil), etc. (Yes, I know, these attitudes extend well beyond the 21st century or even countries we now regard as industrialized, but it seems to be relatively recently that these ideas have been widely accepted.)

I understand the appeal of extending these attitudes in-game, and I know I can't expect anybody to change their character or even want to. You obviously like how you're playing your characters, or you wouldn't be playing them as you are. Still, does nobody else feel that some sort of shallowness comes of the widespread use of these modern opinions? Is nobody else occasionally nauseated by how greatly the majority of the population of the island of Amia seem to resemble, in their thoughts and actions, the members of Western civilization?

This is an issue that continues to drive me away from Amia whenever I get the urge to log in. I cannot play my characters as they are without getting the same reactions that I'd get if I just acted that way in real life. This ruins the chances for all but the pettiest forms of conflict.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I'm looking for with this topic. I guess I'm just looking for fellow dreamers, not to unnaturally force change in the way they approach current roleplay, but perhaps to jointly create conditions and characters that lend themselves to greater and deeper fates than the current situation of the server seems to allow. I know you're out there.

I laugh when people talk about their "Rights"

I believe that this could bring up a lot of opposition, due to the fact that you cannot truely separate reality from fantasy. You will always have the same conflicts and thoughts in any form of reality.

but i think that the best way to say this without re-stating you, is: I agree with you.

I'll put this question to you: Why do you suppose that is the case?

If you don't understand the reasoning behind the creation of this topic, how are we, as readers, going to be able to?

I don't understand why you think Neverwinter Nights is "medieval" in views, either, because it's Forgotten Realms and while there is plenty of racism, sexism, and all that other wonderfully bigot-friendly stuff, there are just as many religions and organizations dedicated to spreading peace and unity amongst the Realms. You're not being turned off Amia by "modern views and taboos"--you're being turned off by those views and taboos inherently present in a Forgotten Realms product.

Reminder: D&D is a product of Western civilization meant to emulate a fantasy version of Western civilization.

I would say because we aren't professional actors, actresses, RPers, or whatever. We have more of a sense of self (haha)

I understand exactly what you're saying(I think), Logicality, and have found myself guilty of it. I've never said anything to anyone about it, because I assumed I would be told I was wrong, and that the person I told was doing that would deny it. I do try avoiding it of course, but it slips out at times. Maybe further awareness is the first step?

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

There is actually something ironically amusing about it when I play Qirlan. People get OOC annoyed because he repudiates their modern value systems and will not move his position, which is hilarious because they themselves refuse to move their moral postions in a fictional setting! Its something I always thought was amusing.

That question you are asking Leggomi, true flame bait right there if I ever saw it.

I disagree with that to some extent Cola, while you are probably right in quite a few cases I think its clear that Amia is a pretty hefty exception. For instance, Drizzt could hardly enter Silverymoon despite being on good terms with Alustriel, whereas if that were Amia he would just be completely welcome. The thing you have to take into account with Amia is that fear really isnt portrayed correctly. Racism is fueled, either rightfully or wrongfully, by fear. Its hard to generate that from behind a desk playing a computer really, so people dont draw the link between the hundreds of kobolds in amia north trying to kill them and the at least mild fear they should feel at seeing one in Amia forest.

Also, there is a really strong favouring of individual 'experience' over what is thematically relevent. Most characters on amia, of any race, may as well have parachuted into the isle after suffering amnesia, for whats its worth. People dont consider social conditioning, the desire for revenge, religious views and a whole range of things.

Another thing is that people, for the most part, are pre-disposed to cooperate I believe. There is something quite lovely about the Eilistraeens, for instance, and it can be very easy to forget that your character may have existed in a society that has hated drow for thousands of years. People give into this emotional sentiment they feel OOC, often because they really have not put that much thought into their characters psychology, family background, societal background, etc.

Colapops wrote:

If you don't understand the reasoning behind the creation of this topic, how are we, as readers, going to be able to?

I don't understand why you think Neverwinter Nights is "medieval" in views, either, because it's Forgotten Realms and while there is plenty of racism, sexism, and all that other wonderfully bigot-friendly stuff, there are just as many religions and organizations dedicated to spreading peace and unity amongst the Realms. You're not being turned off Amia by "modern views and taboos"--you're being turned off by those views and taboos inherently present in a Forgotten Realms product.

Reminder: D&D is a product of Western civilization meant to emulate a fantasy version of Western civilization.

Nobody has discovered electricity yet, so it's pretty obvious we all should be racist and stuff.

Wyjyn wrote:

There is actually something ironically amusing about it when I play Qirlan. People get OOC annoyed because he repudiates their modern value systems and will not move his position, which is hilarious because they themselves refuse to move their moral postions in a fictional setting! Its something I always thought was amusing.

Teeeeheeeee, your character was the first I thought of as one who RPs to what might be expected as RP in the times, or whatever.

Poignant.

Colapops wrote:

If you don't understand the reasoning behind the creation of this topic, how are we, as readers, going to be able to?

You don't need to understand the reasoning behind the creation of a topic to build upon it. You are readers, yes, but you are peers, and you are just as able to imagine as am I. Assign your own reasoning to it and see what happens.

Colapops wrote:

I don't understand why you think Neverwinter Nights is "medieval" in views, either, because it's Forgotten Realms and while there is plenty of racism, sexism, and all that other wonderfully bigot-friendly stuff, there are just as many religions and organizations dedicated to spreading peace and unity amongst the Realms. You're not being turned off Amia by "modern views and taboos"--you're being turned off by those views and taboos inherently present in a Forgotten Realms product.

I never said that I believe Neverwinter Nights to resemble a medieval world. I did not even comment on the ideas and opinions of Abeir-Toril in general. I am well aware of the diversity of beliefs in these forgotten realms, and I believe that such diversity provides excellent opportunities for deep and varied roleplay. However, there is very little actual diversity among the minds of the player characters of Amia. It is true that different factions and followers of different deities will hold different surface ideologies but very rarely do these seem to extend beyond the conscious experience, or greatly affect the entire personality of the individual. I am not being turned off by views and taboos in Forgotten Realms, because the diversity of views in FR can be quite exhilarating. I am, indeed, being turned off Amya by "modern views and taboos" thinly veiled by one-dimensional traits assigned to give characters definition.

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

I'll put this question to you: Why do you suppose that is the case?

I have thought on this for quite some time, and I have usually dismissed it as a product of a high-population world. But upon trying a few other servers, I've realized that this is a trend among the NWN community as a whole. Even better, upon trying to integrate into the roleplaying community of another semi-popular online game, I've realized that this is a trend among the internet roleplaying community as a whole. The natural progression is that the trend is not among internet roleplayers at all, but among absolutely every community that has anything to do with creative endeavours. To what conclusion does this lead me?

It has led me to believe that this is a plague that will never go away, no matter what measures are taken against it. It is the natural state of things, and trying to ward against it will be met with disappointment, if one inspects the results of these wards thoroughly enough. However, within most creative communities there seems to be the potential for betterment on a small scale. I believe that can be achieved here. I do not know how, and I have no active plans to achieve it, but this discussion may help at least to gather people that want the same thing - something that rarely hurts.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

In the end it doesn't matter that much does it, provided they are somewhat interesting? Seriously, if we try to get serious about this I see stuff on Amia all the time that is outside the time setting. I dont know if there is specific FR lore relative to medical practices, but even stiches for wounds is a relatively new concept to my understanding. As far as I know, stitches only really came into use following firearms...yet I have seen Salandrans and the like applying some pretty serious medical procedures that are way beyond the roughly defined time period.

Ultimately I think a better way to look at it is by asking "does it work?" and if not, why not?

I agree completely. And Wyjyn knows my opinions on the subject, and echoes them quite nicely.

Logicality wrote:

I cannot play my characters as they are without getting the same reactions that I'd get if I just acted that way in real life.

You never told us what characters you play and how you play them.

Stitches have been around since ancient times, by the way, granted the technique has changed rather drastically, and did so when firearms were created. /end wikipedia.

Also; I can kind of see where the OP is coming from - but I find myself agreeing with Qirlan's player on a whole.

I totally agree! yes! People change their character's personalities, and seem to forget to change their beliefs and opinions with them. I would start mentioning improv club in school, but then I'd get the response that not everyone has had that kind of experience, so we aren't all on equal footing when it comes to how deeply we separate ourselves in this world from our characters in their world.

The thing is, the majority of us don't know what it's like to have a thousand year history of racial conflict or some other societal issue. The majority of us aren't a jew or muslim over in israel (~monster races vs each other/ vs usual pc races) or been involved in nazi germany (~drow society).

Part of it is ignorance. We don't know what it's like to live in a medieval/fantasy world, so we take what we know and try to make it fit in the setting. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

Part of it is that, I think, that people don't want to run the risk of pissing others off by acting offensive, which racism certainly is. That is, they don't want their IC offensiveness to be taken OOCly.

People also want to play with certain other people, and if your character looks down on women and your friend is playing a female, it puts limits on the RP. (Yes, I know we are limited by the rules, the setting, the classes we choose, etc.)

And, finally (and related to the second point), people play to relax. Yes, they want to RP, but they also want to have a good time. And being hostile or remaining completely in character at all times is hard work, especially if you have to be actively hostile to a bunch of people.

I realize there's more to it than that, but some of these reasons may contribute to why there isnt more racism on Amia and why it's abnormally inclusive.

I do enjoy Qirlan's character and I applaud his remaining in character as a racist bastard as much as he does. Even though Xavi detests Qirlan ICly, I praise him OOCly for his RP and efforts to keep the tensions up.

Xenos wrote:

I laugh when people talk about their "Rights"

Ditto.

As for racism...there's a lot more of it out there than you might expect, some people are just a bit more subtle or a bit less violent along with it.

Xenos wrote:

I laugh when people talk about their "Rights"

What about their OOC right to walk away from an armed bandit, knowing full well they can't be attacked because of server pvp rules?

Or everyone's right to not have to read swearwords that have come out of the mouths of other characters? (this is against the rules on Amia)

These are rules which I support, but they do compromise everything that's genuine about Amia as an "RP world" where 'anything can happen'. Because there's so much OOC stuff we're all conscious of when we RP, and it trivialises everything we do in character.

Does this topic have a point?

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

TormakSaber wrote:

Does this topic have a point?

Does the DM team?

Actually, yes Wyjyn. They breathe life to the server and endeavour to the best of means, to provide a suitably fun atmosphere for people to play in through roleplay assistance and rules enforcement, amongst other things.

TormakSaber wrote:

Does this topic have a point?

I'd say its an awareness raising topic. Sometimes before something can be changed, or improved, you need to be aware of the problem. I think the OP said he was only searching for a small change, too.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Grymia wrote:

Actually, yes Wyjyn. They breathe life to the server and endeavour to the best of means, to provide a suitably fun atmosphere for people to play in through roleplay assistance and rules enforcement, amongst other things.

50/50

Wyjyn wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Does this topic have a point?

Does the DM team?

Do you?

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

TormakSaber wrote:

Wyjyn wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Does this topic have a point?

Does the DM team?

Do you?

I am not in a position of power, don't need to justify anything really. Just a bit annoying that DM team constantly goes around making quips and other stuff, then comes down on other people for the same thing. That would be fine, but then you guys really try to argue that you are forced to behave in a certain way because "the rules tie my hands". No, the rules tie your hands when its convenient to hide behind them.

A lot of the goodly religions tend to promote tolerance. The Book of Exalted Deeds, while not an FR source book, explicitly mentions that good player characters are expected to be more open minded about equality. It even calls discrimination evil.

Being tolerant is not an alien concept at all in DnD, even though it's not always the norm.

What it's starting to sound like to me is that you want to have a character who's an intolerably racist asshat but don't want to suffer through being socially ostracized, like any extremely bigoted person (see: Qirlan) would be in a society like the one formed by Amian adventurers.

Wyjyn wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Wyjyn wrote:

Does the DM team?

Do you?

I am not in a position of power, don't need to justify anything really. Just a bit annoying that DM team constantly goes around making quips and other stuff, then comes down on other people for the same thing. That would be fine, but then you guys really try to argue that you are forced to behave in a certain way because "the rules tie my hands". No, the rules tie your hands when its convenient to hide behind them.

So you don't have a point, you're just raging about The Man. Alright.

Back to my original question: Does tis topic have a point? We already know people tend to interject their westernized views into the game. did we need a nother topic about it? What do you propose to fix the 'problem'? We can't very well ban "not-racism" or whatever.

I regularly incorporate the real world into the fantasy world because I do it well, I do it creatively, and most importantly I do it for subtle purposes such as the communication of a values theme (modern values vs. natural values), to address a universal "unanswered question" whose best phrasing of the question comes in the form of reference to the real world, or my personal favorite, to mercilessly dissect or lampoon a contemporary social practice or moré. I am guilty of incorporating the modern world into the fantasy world, but I am not guilty of it in the sense your original post suggests. You may see people scream about having rights, but watch how quickly I laugh when their concept of rights breaks down in the face of reality - might makes right. Superstitions may be scoffed at until you realize how responsible they are for the current worldview, or worse, how right they are.

You may want people to be able to fabricate a fantastical universe with its own imaginary or make-believe worldviews, but the fact of the matter is that so few people are capable of doing this and doing it well - I can do it well, but it requires a huge amount of effort - that what you normally wind up with is bad fantasy or worldviews intended to justify the selfish desires of the player rather than contribute to the setting or the community. There is an awful lot of terrible fantasy out there with worlds that are lame because they are excessive or exist purely for the flash factor and nothing more substantial.

I approach things from the standpoint of a contemporary writer, though, and a very prejudiced, publishing industry-oriented one at that.

I think Modern Attitudes and Taboos are acceptable, but they need to be used and, most of all, fought against or at least foiled against other highly valid alternatives in order to make the distinction clear. If you're too much like the real world, you're boring. If you're not enough like it, you're incomprehensible. There's a happy medium in there, and it involves approaching the subject with the tender loving care of a master storyteller.

Last edited by Goblin on Sat, Jul 17 2010, 4:29 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Quote:

What do you propose to fix the 'problem'? We can't very well ban "not-racism" or whatever.

I'm sure he's sensible enough to have posted it in the 'Improve Amia' forum if he actually wanted something done about it, not to play devil's advocate.

It is horrible, IG, when you find yourself surrounded by those moral-flaggers who will drag their non-valid political views into a fantasy realm for no other reason presumably than to appear as the 'waaaaaay out there' good guy. If I'm playing a human, who is inclined to be so, I'll point out that the Kobold in our group is a little scaley twerp. That the 'strong silent type' of the party is a CLB, or that the lady in scant clothing who validates none of my IC passes must be some kind of a "reverse boy-lover".

Confrontation is pure gold in RP, it would be a shame if everything became serene. Then it really would be one of those tea parties I've heard so much about. :lol:

New thread title: Drow Say It To Eachother, Why Can't We?

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

TormakSaber wrote:

So you don't have a point, you're just raging about The Man. Alright.

Yeah pretty much, point isn't really related to the thread so I will drop it.

I think Cola basically summed up what he is trying to say to some extent. I think you have to at least admit that there is some crazy stuff tolerated on Amia by FR standards. You just have to deal with it, I dont think its so bad overall. However, I will say that while I wouldnt stop people from doing it, the monster races can get a bit out of control namely because they are played outside their racial qualities and there isn't really a large enough community of others that play within those racial qualities. It does bring up an interesting point though: how many drow are really goodly Eilistraeen and how many not? How many evil tieflings are there around? As in, is the UD drow community huge compared to the surface, with NPCs?

I guess leaving the topic open to interpretation was a bad idea. For the record, I don't actually have any (terribly) racist characters, and I'm disappointed that racism has become a central issue here.

I'm wary of actually posting more, as things I say have a tendency to be horribly misunderstood, it seems. I'm also not very fond of some of the venom I'm feeling from some of these posts. So, rather than try to pull another few (clearer) paragraphs from my already exhausted brain, I'll just end my comments for the night by saying that I find Yossarin's post to be the greatest in this thread. I am not against the use of modern values. It's their serious near-monopoly over the minds of Amia's player characters that irks me.

And this topic is indeed a sort of awareness raiser, I suppose. It infects people that read it with an idea, which may very well lead to a small-scale increase in deep roleplay. I'm not proposing anything, and hard "fixes" are not always needed or useful. Sometimes discussions alone inspire creativity.

I think the biggest eye-opener here is that you think anyone who does not conform to your obtuse and undefined view of "roleplaying values" is, in your own words, "shallow" and that only by rallying people to your cause can people be made to see the light and achieve "deepness."

Colapops wrote:

I think the biggest eye-opener here is that you think anyone who does not conform to your obtuse and undefined view of "roleplaying values" is, in your own words, "shallow" and that only by rallying people to your cause can people be made to see the light and achieve "deepness."

I think you are seeing too much.

It used to be that as soon as a Goblin, Kobold, Drow or whatever got dissed, everyone rallied up behind them. That sucked, but it feels like it's gotten better because bigotry has become more popular.

A big part of this is the assumption that when a character defends a usually despised creature, it is because it reflects the moral compass of the player. I think that myself a lot, and there may be some truth to it. It's just a gut feeling.

No proof either way, but to me it's a fact that there is no complete severance of character and player. It's not how our mind works, and it shouldn't have to, because empathy makes for believable characters. Moving on to the next question: Is it BAD that the character is influenced by the player? Is it somehow cheapening the fantasy atmosphere?

Hmm, this is an interesting topic, and an thing that has given me lots of tought over the time. It is correct that most people just are so accustomed to current ethos and norms that they do not actually understand that there is another way, or another view point. Its actual pivot of all religious and political discontent and confrontation over the years.

Actually making people aware of such an thing would require a bit extensive knowlege of theology, politics, ethics and history, and we all know not everyone has time, wish, or capability to do so.

Best thing one could try to accomplish is to solidify certain fantasy norms over pc run groups and factions. (or simply blow up cordor and its laws) For example, drow no matter how elitist they are did manage to incoorporate more than few fantasy norms and ethos in their roleplay more or less because it makes them what they are. I could also say that there are some monstrous races players who did it great as well, for example Bucktooth goblins who actually act as goblins.

What is really an problem from IC perspective is that your character gets very bad ideas and viewpoints based on area he is spending time in. For example, if one would base norms on Cordor, you would get character beliefs as following: 50% of world is mixed blood of everything, women seem to hate clothes and wear something more akin to straps than pieces of clothing, kobolds are huggly, women are likely having lesbian preferances and its fashinable to walk around in dark, overbearing clothes if you are caster.

Not really what one would expect, yes? Again, I would only ask that factions, them being ones responsible to lead by example, should take upon them to install new viewpoints and ideas that would fit fantasy world better.

Not Amia, thats DnD. There is a large percentage of "real world" gods that cause that outlook. Tempus is one, as are others.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

This: http://www.elfonlyinn.net/d/20040408.html

Lulz. Pure gold.

They need one about killing the 200th kobold/goblin/orc then hugging the next one that comes along because they see "doofus dungbeetle" over its sprite instead of "goblin".

This topic does have a point.

Role-playing an asshat character is hard to do on Amia because it makes other players pissy. For instance: My character calls an orc character an idiot..........then the player gets ofended.

I prefer medieval themes in the FRs over the Bill of Rights and Geneva Conventions for all races of the planes. If I wanted to play in a modern setting I would play d20 modern.

KrautBoy wrote:

I prefer medieval themes in the FRs over the Bill of Rights and Geneva Conventions for all races of the planes. If I wanted to play in a modern setting I would play d20 modern.

Pretty much my thoughts.

Some things are understandable but the whole modern world thing often goes way over that. It can be very frustrating at times. In addition to emphasis of modern taboos, the lack of Forgotten Realms taboos can be quite confusing at times.

Logicality wrote:

I understand the appeal of extending these attitudes in-game, ... Still, does nobody else feel that some sort of shallowness comes of the widespread use of these modern opinions? Is nobody else occasionally nauseated by how greatly the majority of the population of the island of Amia seem to resemble, in their thoughts and actions, the members of Western civilization?

I sure am. For me there is but one good guide line for behaviour in high fantasy games and that's medieval times. Amia more resembles a hippie commune. But what are you going to do about it? I'm sure in FR women of most races belong in the kitchen, but I doubt I'll ever get a surprised reaction to a women adventurer.

Racism, bigotry, intolerance and similar are objectively evil, even in the world of Faerun. So a good character would simply not act like that. And an evil drow hating elf would be rightly called out on it by good characters. You don't have to follow the morals and attitudes but if you make a racist evil bigot, expect to be treated accordingly by those who are not, which the majority of good people wouldn't be. I echo Cola's point about players just being upset that their bad characters are called out on it.

hadeismetirion wrote:

I'm sure in FR women of most races belong in the kitchen ... <snip>

I used to read a *lot* of FR sourcebooks and fiction back in my PnP gaming days, and I can assert with some confidence that virtually every source I've ever read disagrees with this. Is there even a single example of a piece of Realms fiction that didn't include at least one, and often several, prominent female protagonists? Just off the top of my head... Alias, Arilyn Moonblade, Midnight, Shandril Shessair, and Alicia Kendrick were either the star characters in their respective stories or had an equal share of the spotlight. Catti-brie and Olive Ruskettle were sidekick characters, but definitely full-fledged adventurers as the rest. Even just in NWN, I can cite Aribeth, Sharwyn, Dorna Trapspringer, and Linu Laneral as examples of female adventurers. And I don't recall any of these characters being societally discouraged from adventuring on account of their sex.

The OP's point about Western values being applied inappropriately to Forgotten Realms RPing is probably generally valid when it comes to civil rights (the FR was very much feudal or monarchical), but on the subject of womens' lib, the FR is firmly and indisputably Western, and it's entirely canonically appropriate to play Amia that way.

To moonangel: Just curious, are you saying that objectively? Like as someone who has read FR books and knows the setting etc or are you just saying all this based on your innate gut feelings and moral compass?

Moonangel wrote:

Racism, bigotry, intolerance and similar are objectively evil, even in the world of Faerun.

Ever heard of a paladin? I think all of that fits as a very good description of one.

A little bit of both. I am not a lore monkey or anything so I can't give any in dept lore examples or anything but, for an example, let's take racism against drow.

The setting itself acknowledges that not all drow are evil, and there are good canon drow npcs like Drizzt. Then you got eilistraee, who is a chaotic good goddess representing good drow. So while a commoner might believe that all drow are evil and dangerous and should be hated, he is wrong and mistaken as per the setting itself. The Drizzt books which show us the struggle of a good drow against a word that won't accept him for his race makes him sympathetic while those who don't accept him are put into a bad light.

I believe even the dogma of Sheverash who is the god of drow hunting makes an expection for elistreans and drow who have turned away from Lolth. And Correlon has accepted Elistraee back as his daughter for turning from evil.

This makes me assume that hating all drow regardless of alignment, religion or actions, while common in Faerun due to most people being uneducated and scared commoners who don't know any better is wrong.

Moonangel wrote:

Racism, bigotry, intolerance and similar are objectively evil, even in the world of Faerun. So a good character would simply not act like that.

You know, I'm not sure I agree with this, either... are you insisting that if (for example) a couple of goblins walked into a typical random Forgotten Realms human village, armed to the teeth and armored to the gills (as happens dozens of times daily on Amia), that those goblins would be welcomed in with wine and song? No. They'd be killed on sight. No questions asked, no quarter given. And the villagers who killed them would be proud of themselves, and the villagers would hail them as heroes, and they'd get drinks bought for them at the tavern that evening, and they'd sleep the untroubled sleep of the righteous that night. And I don't think there's a good argument that any of this would make any of these hypothetical villagers evil.

On Modern Attitudes and Taboos: Another mild rant

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