AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Regarding Ability Scores.

What would be considered the 'Average' for an ordinary human. We base our stats on many varried reasons but would the common everyday man have stat wise. Are we talking 10 across the board?

If that were the case then what incrememts do the increments represent.

Say for example a man is a blacksmith with muscles that make most the women in the town swoon ( :lol:

) would we say he has 12 STR, 14 STR, more?

An intelligent mayor who has some savy about him would he be INT 12 and WIS 12?

But then just what would 18 represent... A muscle bound hunk... a genius... a person who moves with the agility of a cat (STR, INT, DEX respectively).

Oh and as for when you get a natural 25 (ability scores from items, for the sake of argument dont count here) Then what do we say... lets not even -start- about the woman with 25 STR.

Anyway... thoughts?

9-11, +2 for bonus race, -2 for penalty race. a.k.a the average for a 3d6 roll.

Thankyou for the numbers, I knew someone would post them.

But...

Exactly what do those numbers -mean-. That person with a 10 STR is that an average everyday Joe on the village street then. If so then what physical manifestations take place at say 14 STR, 18 STR. What exactly defines that person then as being stronger.

Or indeed the same going as if it were any other attribue score. Just -how- much more intelligent is someone with 14 INT over 10?

Last edited by Yurell on Mon, Jun 28 2010, 8:28 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Players Handbook says 10-11 is average for a human, so I'd say one to either side (with the race bonus) of that that Tormak advocates is probably right. Beyond that, it scales ludicrously:

Str 18: Minotaur
(Str 30: Fire Giant)

Dex 18: Ethereal Filcher
(Dex 32: Elder Air Elemental)

Con 18: Umber Hulk
(Con 35: The Tarrasque)

Int 18: Mindflayer
(Int 32: Great Wyrm Gold Dragon)

Wis 18: Erinyes
(Wis 32: Great Wyrm Gold Dragon)

Cha 18: Nixie
(Cha 32: Great Wyrm Gold Dragon)

As for what the numbers mean, well, strength is in the table below.

Constution, for a 30ft per round person like a human, means they can run 20 feet per second for (constitution / 10) minutes before having to make a DC 10 con test every round, increasing by a DC of 1 per round. To put that in perspective, that means 20 con lets you run 730 m (2400 ft) in two minutes without getting tired.

Basicly it means that adventurers are all freaks, either mentally or physically.

QPR wrote:

Basicly it means that adventurers are all freaks, either mentally or physically.

Begining to think that I might just agree with this.

But then adventurers are the exceptions to the norm after all

About 6 inches.

Above all that.. nobody truly dies in Amia..

Wasn't this same topic discussed like a month or two ago?

I remember reading some tables that effectively compared scaling ability scores to a whole load of monsters. All I remember that 30+ was equivalent to Ancient Gold Wyrm on almost all of them. I'll try and find it....

Thank you, Google.

Not very tidy but meh.

STRENGTH wrote:

Example Race or Creature Average Strength Average Modifier
Allip, shadow, will-o’-wisp - -
Lantern archon, bat, toad 1 –5
Rat swarm 2 –4
Stirge, monkey, Tiny monstrous spider 3 –4
Grig, Small monstrous centipede 4–5 –3
Hawk, cockatrice, pixie 6–7 –2
Quasit, badger 8–9 –1
Human, beholder, dire rat 10–11 +0
Mind flayer, dog, pony, ghoul 12–13 +1
Gnoll, dire badger, baboon, manta ray 14–15 +2
Black pudding, choker, Large shark 16–17 +3
Centaur, displacer beast, minotaur 18–19 +4
Ape, ogre, flesh golem, gorgon 20–21 +5
Fire giant, triceratops, elephant 30–31 +10
Great wyrm gold dragon 46–47 +18

DEXTERITY wrote:

Example Race or Creature Average Dexterity Average Modifier
Shrieker (fungus) - -
Gelatinous cube (ooze) 1 –5
Colossal animated object 4–5 –3
Purple worm, ogre zombie 6–7 –2
Ogre, basilisk, fire giant, tendriculos 8–9 –1
Human, triton, boar, giant fire beetle 10–11 +0
Bugbear, lammasu, hobgoblin 12–13 +1
Displacer beast, hieracosphinx 14–15 +2
Blink dog, wraith, lion, octopus 16–17 +3
Astral deva (angel), ethereal filcher 18–19 +4
Arrowhawk, bone devil 20–21 +5
Elder air elemental 32–33 +11

CONSTITUTION wrote:

Example Race or Creature Average Constitution Average Modifier
Ghoul, mummy, shadow - -
Centipede swarm, locust swarm 8–9 –1
Human, imp, dire weasel, grick 10–11 +0
Rust monster, medusa, otyugh, nymph 12–13 +1
Light horse, merfolk, troglodyte 14–15 +2
Tiger, chimera, assassin vine 16–17 +3
Polar bear, gargoyle, umber hulk 18–19 +4
Elephant, aboleth, tyrannosaurus 20–21 +5
The tarrasque 35 +12

INTELLIGENCE wrote:

Example Race or Creature Average Intelligence Average Modifier
Zombie, golem, ochre jelly - -
Carrion crawler, purple worm, camel 1 –5
Tiger, hydra, dog, horse 2 –4
Gray render, tendriculos, rast 3 –4
Otyugh, griffon, displacer beast 4–5 –3
Troll, hell hound, ogre, yrthak 6–7 –2
Troglodyte, centaur, gnoll 8–9 –1
Human, bugbear, wight, night hag 10–11 +0
Dragon turtle, cloud giant, lamia 12–13 +1
Invisible stalker, wraith, will-o’-wisp 14–15 +2
Beholder, succubus, trumpet archon 16–17 +3
Mind flayer, death slaad, nightwing 18–19 +4
Kraken, titan, nightcrawler 20–21 +5
Great wyrm gold dragon 32–33 +11

WISDOM wrote:

Example Race or Creature Average Wisdom Average Modifier
Gelatinous cube (ooze), animated object 1 –5
Shrieker (fungus) 2 –4
Red slaad, githyanki 6–7 –2
Purple worm, grimlock, troll 8–9 –1
Human, lizardfolk, phantom fungus 10–11 +0
Owlbear, hyena, shadow, remorhaz 12–13 +1
Wraith, owl, giant praying mantis 14–15 +2
Devourer, lillend, androsphinx 16–17 +3
Couatl, erinyes devil, guardian naga 18–19 +4
Unicorn, storm giant 20–21 +5
Great wyrm gold dragon 32–33 +11

CHARISMA wrote:

Example Race or Creature Average Charisma Average Modifier
Zombie, golem, shrieker (fungus) 1 –5
Spider, crocodile, lizard, rhinoceros 2 –4
Tendriculos, octopus 3 –4
Dire rat, weasel, chuul, donkey 4–5 –3
Badger, troll, giant fire beetle, bear 6–7 –2
Gnoll, dire boar, manticore, gorgon 8–9 –1
Human, wolverine, dretch (demon) 10–11 +0
Treant, roper, doppelganger, night hag 12–13 +1
Storm giant, barghest, medusa 14–15 +2
Ogre mage, pixie, harpy, achaierai 16–17 +3
Greater barghest, nixie 18–19 +4
Astral deva (angel), kraken 20–21 +5
Great wyrm gold dragon 32–33 +11

30 Strength is the same as being as strong as Triceratops, the coolest of all the dinosaurs? Win. But, on some of these scores in particular, it is pretty ludicrous for a character to have that sort of power within the confines of a human body. Beyond, say, 18 STR (Minotaur size), for the Conanesque brutes. 18 is the maximum (For average race), so I'd imagine 10 as average, and 18 as being as big as you can reasonably imagine, and scale back from there for the inbetweens.

But it's not really possible to imagine beyond that, the dimensions of the body would be so deformed. Intelligent characters would all look like The Leader. I personally dont really think about this sort of thing too much before I get wierded out. The only explaination that comes to mind is that adventurers exposure to magic causes their bodies to grow irregularly, once you get above a certain level. But that is such a crap explaination, I'd rather just handwave the whole thing. Characters look like what their Bio says.

Last edited by SLS on Mon, Jun 28 2010, 11:04 AM, edited 1 time in total.

A level 40 adventurer could be considered a almost demi-god, so yeah, Amia is full of inanely powerful people running around. We could take over everything! Fear us!

One thing to note CnD, the stats do not always reflect physically if at all. The size of the brain has nothing to do with a person's intelligence, endurance can be developed through a good, steady breathing or flexible muscles. Muscles for power can be formed in such a way that they are not huge and bulging but lean and spring like. BTW, large muscles do not reflect power, it reflects resistance

So yeah there are ways to develop a body that does not turn it into some sort of bunging, grotesque, deformed, shadow of a human, a person who lifts weights to get bulging muscles is not "strong", he just has large developed muscles.

Tormak being a DM, his explanation is best and likely the one used.

The rest is all people posting opinions after his post. Use his explanation, ignore the rest. As the questions has been answered by a DM, and then some by other people with assorted views, not really any reasom to keep commenting or answering unless you have more questions.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Tormak being a DM, his explanation is best and likely the one used.

The rest is all people posting opinions after his post. Use his explanation, ignore the rest. As the questions has been answered by a DM, and then some by other people with assorted views, not really any reasom to keep commenting or answering unless you have more questions.

You are mistaken. Tormak answered about the average, others about how it scales up from that well defined average.

All I have to add is that it all scaled better in 2nd edition, where 18 really was the maximum without magical items. I always liked the IQ comparision for intelligence score from 2nd ed times, where 15 int would equal 150 IQ which is well on the genius end of the scale, and 180 is so brilliant it is not even funny. That comparision probably no longer applies.

I adjust the average upwards. 2 x 65 demi-gods walking around is just so incredibly dull from a storytelling point of view. I can rarely stomach overblown theatrics. Mundane things on the other hand are always interesting. They're the bread and butter. The Weaponmaster with shoulders bulging enough to put a train to a dead stop is the undercooked burger.

Tertsökkeldsdönner wrote:

Above all that.. nobody truly dies in Amia..

Not true.

Seems to me that this is another "What does fantasy have to do with reality?" question.

Answer: Nothing.

D&D, and by extention NWN and Amia are based on a game mechanic that is an abstraction rather than a representation of abilities. This is why each round is six seconds long andwhy a 1st level PC only gets one 'attack', even though almost anyone can swing a weapon or thier fists many times during those six seconds. It's assumed that there is swinging, maneuvering, blocking, ducking, parrying, thrusting, and dodging between you and your opponent all at once. The attacks you recieve at your respective levels are simply the opportunity to inflict damage on your opponent from the many swings made during a round of combat.

This also extends to most other aspects of the game as well. Even though abilities like Strength have coresponding weight allowances, the numbers are abitrary at best and do not reflect any real world values. In addition, even on Amia, it's possible to have abilities up to 2.5x the standard maximum of 18. So applying any sort of discriptive to a agiven ability statistic is difficult at best, and of course everyone will therefore have a different oppinion on what it should be.

Add to all of this that you're dealing with a setting involving magic and beings of heroic stature where almost anything is possible... well.

According to some site, my intelligence and wisdom are both 16 on a DnD scale. So I guess I'm what 16 int/wis means.

Quantifying human ability in absolute terms is silly. In a storytelling context, ability scores and the like should only even be looked at to a certain extent, after which point they should be ignored in favour of the judgement of the creator of a character.

I like to think that anything above 18 is supernatural and rather manifests in supernatural and game-mechanical terms than as human traits. So you can be a hulking mountain of muscle at 18, but you won't necessarily grow any bigger at 22. You can be the smartest mathematician around at 18, and more Intelligence just means you have trained your mind supernaturally to store more spells or whatever. A 30-Wis PC doesn't necessarily have to know the secrets of the multiverse any better than an 18-Wis one, but he has superior ability to block supernatural attacks on his mind.

It's not quite consistent, but it means we can play our heroes as somewhat recognizeable as humans. And even so, I always say that only your natural ability scores affect who you are. Magic items and spells are magic, they don't necessarily work like natural attributes would.

IronAngel wrote:

I like to think that anything above 18 is supernatural and rather manifests in supernatural and game-mechanical terms than as human traits. So you can be a hulking mountain of muscle at 18, but you won't necessarily grow any bigger at 22. You can be the smartest mathematician around at 18, and more Intelligence just means you have trained your mind supernaturally to store more spells or whatever. A 30-Wis PC doesn't necessarily have to know the secrets of the multiverse any better than an 18-Wis one, but he has superior ability to block supernatural attacks on his mind.

It's not quite consistent, but it means we can play our heroes as somewhat recognizeable as humans. And even so, I always say that only your natural ability scores affect who you are. Magic items and spells are magic, they don't necessarily work like natural attributes would.

-This-

Thankyou Iron for something concise to what I was looking for *snuggles*

Just remember, nothing on Amia is average.

Athyonn Ursidae wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I like to think that anything above 18 is supernatural and rather manifests in supernatural and game-mechanical terms than as human traits. So you can be a hulking mountain of muscle at 18, but you won't necessarily grow any bigger at 22. You can be the smartest mathematician around at 18, and more Intelligence just means you have trained your mind supernaturally to store more spells or whatever. A 30-Wis PC doesn't necessarily have to know the secrets of the multiverse any better than an 18-Wis one, but he has superior ability to block supernatural attacks on his mind.

It's not quite consistent, but it means we can play our heroes as somewhat recognizeable as humans. And even so, I always say that only your natural ability scores affect who you are. Magic items and spells are magic, they don't necessarily work like natural attributes would.

-This-

Thankyou Iron for something concise to what I was looking for *snuggles*

Hmm. Never thought of it that way, but it sure makes sense. The 3rd edition way of scaling abilities up to infinity has always confused me greatly.

Thanks Iron.

As far as my RP is concerned, there are exactly three scores for the mental stats:

1) Negative modifier: as reckless/moronic/awkward as I can make them, aiming for comic effect.
2) 0 modifier: don't pay attention to it.
3) +1 or higher: as wise/intelligent/charming as I can make them.

Everything else takes too much thought away from powergaming and dirty jokes. Sod that.

Since we are doing opinions on views and I haven't heard anything like how I see it stated, here it is. I like to think that combination of min's and max's in certain attributes produces different results.

Example. Person with 25 STR and 10-13 dex is probably going to be a hulking mass of muscle. Bodybuilder type look, or Conan.
But if its something closer like 20 STR and 16-18 DEX the person is probably going to muscular yet lean, athletic in build, yet strong. Classical Martial Artists look, or the toned warrior look.

Someone with a high charisma may be attractive and chisled in the face, but if they have low physical attributes much like most sorc's, they will be less amazing in the body department. Nothing fancy to look at, just a very good looking person but no outstanding physical features.

Wizard may be intelligent, but because he has a low wisdom he's a bumbling twit.

Very much like how NWN actually discribes it in the attribute menu. Also allows for many more variations of people due to how things are min-maxed.

Athyonn Ursidae wrote:

Say for example a man is a blacksmith with muscles that make most the women in the town swoon ( :lol:

) would we say he has 12 STR, 14 STR, more?

Dude... Noone fights like Gaston.

STR: 18 - He eats 5 dozen eggs AND he has biceps to spare
DEX: 18 - No one's quick as gaston
CON: 18 - He's roughly the size of a barge...
INT: 18 - He uses the word 'expectorating' for spitting.
WIS: 18 - He uses antler's in all of his decorating. How is that NOT wisdom?
CHA: 18 - He's everyone's favourite guy

He's the perfect paragon of man.

lathandier wrote:

Athyonn Ursidae wrote:

Say for example a man is a blacksmith with muscles that make most the women in the town swoon ( :lol:

) would we say he has 12 STR, 14 STR, more?

Dude... Noone fights like Gaston.

STR: 18 - He eats 5 dozen eggs AND he has biceps to spare
DEX: 18 - No one's quick as gaston
CON: 18 - He's roughly the size of a barge...
INT: 18 - He uses the word 'expectorating' for spitting.
WIS: 18 - He uses antler's in all of his decorating. How is that NOT wisdom?
CHA: 18 - He's everyone's favourite guy

He's the perfect paragon of man.

Eeeeeh, no match for a beast tho.

Sure he is! He just rolled a one on his balance check is all. Happens all the time.

lathandier wrote:

Sure he is! He just rolled a one on his balance check is all. Happens all the time.

Actually it only happens 5% of the time.

In circumstances of dire straits, it happens more often than not. The cosmic world works against those that need probability the most.

Have a Heart of Gold and all is well.

Then I will roll a paladin.

Im playing Gaston in the next beauty of the beast.... go figure eh?

Also, on the topic of average.....
How about skills?
listen,spot, tumble, etc?

All relative. Relative to profession and circumstance. You cannot come up with an average of knowledgable skills without taking into consideration every single individuals' own profession and hobbies.

Undertaking such a task would require mathetmatics, spread sheets, and the knowledge of every NPC individual in Toril and the multiverse.

I think I've posted on enough stat topics in the past for most people to know my stance on the meaning of stats/character sheet numbers. I will say this, however. Amia and the fictional Lake Wobegon could have the same motto:

Quote:

"Where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average."

What is 'Average'

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