I'm sure that this has been discussed at least once before so I apologize if I'm bringing up a dead and beaten horse for a quick re-beating, but I'm too tired to search and confirm that, and would like to just go ahead and make sure I'm not ever accused of abusing an exploit or some business.

Was testing spells earlier on my cleric. I was told that Banishment autokills all outsider PCs, including Aasimar, Tieflings, and all the elemental planetouched and that there was absolutely no way to counter it, with the exception of Spell Resistance or Spell Mantle. I thought that was bullcrap. (I was right.) With a bit of testing, I discovered that while yeah, it'll kill outsiders (or at least Aasimar, because that's what I was testing against) the DC is fairly low and isn't likely to kill many Paladins or other high-will toons unless I were to focus heavily upon Abjuration as a caster. Also, the spell can be countered with Death Ward, and if the outsider fails his will save he takes around 100 points of damage instead of being smote. No damage if he passes the save.

With a bit of looking through my spellbook though, I saw that Word of Faith has a similar effect, also slaying outsiders and summons, and with a "colossal" area of effect with, unless I'm mistaken, no limit to the number of HD it can destroy? That would mean that I could auto-splatter any number of outsider PCs in the vicinity with just that one spell, right? Again, I might be mistaken. (I'm really hoping I am, honestly.)

However, my cleric is an evocation-focused caster cleric, and his current DC for Word of Faith is mid to high thirties. Pretty obnoxious, considering the size of the AoE and the simple killing potential, along with the fact that it blinds everyone in the AoE for a fairly large number of rounds. Now, I'm not sure if Death Ward prevents that, because the buddy I was testing the spells on needed to log out. If Death Ward -does- prevent the spell being treated as an AoE death spell against outsiders, do they still receive a damage score similar to that of Banishment's?

Basically, I'm of the mind that some sort of change needs to happen with Word of Faith, if much of that is true - at least as far as how it affects outsider PCs. Death Ward isn't a buff that people fire up automatically, and with an AoE that large, I could probably nuke a caster type even if he were sanctuaried and busily buffing his way into using Death Ward.

I wouldn't think that even though Monks are outsiders that it would have an effect on them, being as how they're still native to the prime material plane, and seeing as how they have nice will saves and spell resistance anyway, I'm not terribly worried about blowing them up with WoF.

Again though, it seems like the spell is terribly overpowered against outsiders. I was curious to find out what I had gotten wrong in the ten minutes of testing I did today, and was hoping you guys could just go ahead and do all the work for me while I go to sleep.

Thanks.

Also: If in the course of RP which turns to PvP, I Banish/WoF an outsider, it says that they are returned to the plane from whence they came. Does that mean for Outsider PCs that they are banished from the prime material plane? And if -that's- the case, how in the blue hell does one RP raising the poor sod?

Clerics do get a lot of attention lately.

Monks are not Outsiders in NWN. Also, any spell that banishes outsiders will banish native Outsiders. It sends them away from the caster's plane, not towards their own.

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Not sure how this is any different from someone dying from wail of the banshee to be perfectly honest.
Its akin to a SD that doesnt gear fort or use deathward/mantles saying wail is too overpowered.

Wail affects a broader range of PCs too. The only difference is that wail affects fort which people coincidentally stack for anyways. So thats alot less complains against it. One cant have their cake and eat it too I feel.

You either gear up with the MCS system, take epic will feats alongst with spell craft, or just... mantle.

Not sure if the test is 100 percent accurate, my character was banished once before, failed his save, and had like 150ish HP and it insta killed him. Might be I rolled a 1 though and didn't realize it.

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For the 50th time since this alwas comes up:

WYSIWYG it kills them dead that's what it does ignore the description.

No change needed. Will save or die. Being an Outsider was never easy.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Translation:

The way we impliment it doesn't really make a lick of sense lorewise, but it's a lot less complicated and easier than putting other areas(planes) in and modifying the spell. And even though we've long determined the difference between planetouched(native outsiders) and true outsiders it was intended to affect, again, it's simpler.

Source: Multiple attempts at arguing alternatives for WoF and Banishment in Things to Improve thread.

No not really, if you're an outsider to the plane you're native on you just die.

Or the outsiderish bits leaves, leaving the native parts of you where they was resulting in:

My attempt at fun probably failed, but yeah, its something templates only something half. Tiefling, Aasimar and Genasi arent outsiders outsider they're outsider templates applied to another race(human).

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I thought all extraplanar creatures only exist in non-native planes through an avatar connected to the native plane by means of a silver cord, anyway. If so, it'd make sense for the "avatar" to just die, and the soul of the outsider to return to its natural state on its home plane.

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Yes, if oyu want to be a dick about it, but we're not adding 50 different 2x3 area planes just so you can get sent there when you're Banished.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

It doesn't actually need to be a home plane, just away from the plane of the caster. I argue - you get swept to some pocket plane connected to the prime material like a bag of holding where you immediately die which drops your body back where you started.

So it does make a 'lick' of sense. Or, if you really care about lore, how about house rules = house lore = banishment kills outsiders? I think that was an exceptionally abrasive post to make (@DI)

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Just expressing what I gained was our reasoning for having WoF and Banishment set up the way they are currently, instead of the "it just does, now shush" response that is repeatedly given on this topic. I'm not arguing for anything on this. Not any more, at least.

P.S. I put my opinions no more abrasively than they've been put to me in the past.

Wasn't there a topic where people suggested adding pocket planes for everyone so they can be proberly banished before?

I am not sure...

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Yes there was.

Playing an abjurist with a very high banishment DC, I always find it amusing when I inadvertently banish PCs in the area of effect.

Of course they get annoyed OOCly, some don't, but it is dealt with ICly. I don't think the fact that another plane is needed for them to be banished to is very necessary at all. WYSIWYG, and that is enough to continue.

I remember when Tarick was still playing, someone summoned a Drow statue. My PC thought it was an outsider summon, and there were two outsiders standing in the area, so I cast banishment on the Drow Statue, and the two outsiders (including Tarick) died, they were raised, Tarick got angry, the other outsider was counterspelling me, and so I used a GS scroll and got my arse out of there.

Nobody questioned the fact that there was another plane that they were taken to, and how I always so it was their physical avatar was merely a puppet for whilst they are in the material plane. Being banished, as the man before me said, leaves their bag of bones and tasty mince behind.

Delicious.

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