AMIA ARCHIVE
https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/

Resurrection/Undead
https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47555		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ghostie_1 [ Wed, May 12 2010, 22:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Resurrection/Undead
I was just almost asleep last night, and started thinking about something that actually kinda bugged me, because I didn't know the answer right off. So, here goes.

Bear in mind, please, that I'm even suggesting a change to a Amia in any way, only interested in gaining some clarity on the situation.

In order to resurrect someone, one must have at the very least a lock of that person's hair, correct? I'm fairly certain that that's the case.

This brought on a question for me in regards to undead, because with most undead (the corporeal ones, at least) you certainly have more than a lock of hair that you could use to raise that person.

So let's say you're a priest and you run into an undead. Wouldn't casting Resurrection on an undead not necessarily destroy that undead, but return that undead to its originial state as a living, breathing being?

And if not, then if a person is killed by one of those nasty undeads which turn people into additional undead (like ghasts, I think? Bodaks for sure) does that mean that you are beyond a cleric's ability to repair and must simply be destroyed?

And if -that's- the case, does the same rule then apply to PC's? Let's say, (god forbid) that I were playing an undead character. If I'm killed by some monster in a dungeon during the levelling process, from a logical standpoint, does that mean that I cannot be raised, but must be somehow reanimated through necromancy?

Done.
Author:  Yurell [ Wed, May 12 2010, 23:05 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
If the creature is undead, resurrection fails. Period. You need to destroy the undead.

Raise Dead - you must have their body and it must be whole. Cannot raise people who died of old age, are (or were) undead, or have been killed by death effect.

Resurrection - so long as some remains exist of the creature (that were part of them at time of death), you can raise them regardless of their body's condition. You can raise someone who was undead and was destroyed, you can raise someone who was killed by a death effect. You cannot raise someone dead of old age.

True Resurrection -can you unambiguously identify the deceased? Good, because no matter what state their body is in you can raise them. You can raise anything (including elementals and outsiders, which can't be raised by the above spells) except constructs, currently undead creatures and things that died of old age.

It's up to DMs to decide if this applies to PCs. I doubt it will, though.
Author:  Isaiah [ Wed, May 12 2010, 23:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
This should help you a bit I think

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm
Author:  Silvarus [ Wed, May 12 2010, 23:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
If I remember right:
Code:
If resurrection is cast on an undead creature
    If the creature's proper time of death has not been reached yet: Resurrect to life
    Else: Thorough destruction


Edit: Apparently I remembered wrong.
Author:  Ghostie_1 [ Thu, May 13 2010, 4:11 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
So provided that the undead is destroyed, you can resurrect them to their previously healthy, totally alive state, provided they haven't been dead for an obnoxiously long time?

And again, I'm not looking to make any of this applicable to Amia, I was only curious.
Author:  Yurell [ Thu, May 13 2010, 4:18 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Once they're destroyed, you can resurrect them if:
a) They haven't been dead past the allowed time
b) They didn't die of old age
Author:  Galenson [ Thu, May 13 2010, 6:00 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Keep it simple stupid. The more indepth you try to explain something, the more complex it is to find an answer.

Can you resurect a dead undead body? What you should be asking yourself is not can it be done, but why would you bother?
Author:  Yurell [ Thu, May 13 2010, 6:36 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
So that way the evil necromancer not only loses a minion, but he now has a very upset person with all the weaponry he chose to give the minion, who likely holds a grudge against said necromancer?
Author:  Herra Tutteri [ Thu, May 13 2010, 9:07 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
What if they didn't die of old age but Kelly still says "no!" ?
Author:  HellScourge [ Thu, May 13 2010, 9:40 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Kellies are opposed to people who prolong their natural lifespan (Like Liches).

That is how I understood it at least the last time I spoke with one and got told about their faith.
Author:  Silvarus [ Thu, May 13 2010, 10:07 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Herra Tutteri wrote:
What if they didn't die of old age but Kelly still says "no!" ?

Then they are past their natural lifespan and will not be resurrected. Natural lifespan can mean whatever event of death the gods want in their mysterious ways. :)
Author:  IronAngel [ Thu, May 13 2010, 10:13 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Yurell wrote:
Once they're destroyed, you can resurrect them if:
a) They haven't been dead past the allowed time
b) They didn't die of old age


What do you mean by allowed time? Do you mean the 10 years/level rule? (Which is not absolute, btw.)

I wonder if that timer starts running when they're turned undead, or when the undead is destroyed. If the latter is the case, you could prolong someone's time indefinitely by turning them undead, then destroying and raising them in a few hundred years, and then repeating the process. However, it's not very useful because they couldn't stay alive for more than a while lest their living years end. But it would work as a kind of stasis.
Author:  Silvarus [ Thu, May 13 2010, 10:24 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Allowed time: Whatever the gods meant their lifespan to be before someone meddled.

Aka: DM discretion.

If an NPC was supposed to be killed in a mining accident at the age of 40, but he was turned undead at 39 and someone tried to resurrect him at 41, he would not be resurrected.
Author:  IronAngel [ Thu, May 13 2010, 10:26 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
No, I would believe that falls under b, dying of old age.

The gods don't actively involve themselves with or decide normal people's lifespans, after all. You can cheat death in many ways, so I have a hard time believing this would be an exception.
Author:  Silvarus [ Thu, May 13 2010, 10:28 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
IronAngel wrote:
No, I would believe that falls under b, dying of old age.

The gods don't actively involve themselves with or decide normal people's lifespans, after all. You can cheat death in many ways, so I have a hard time believing this would be an exception.

Well alright, dying of old age then. If a char rolls 89 as his maximum age he will not be resurrected past that no matter how undeady he might have been in the mean time. :)
Author:  IronAngel [ Thu, May 13 2010, 10:40 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Well, that's not part of the rules. If you die at 23 and somebody makes you undead, and then fifty years later the undead is destroyed and you're resurrected, are you 23 or 73?

Since you are obviously not "you", a human, and you don't age during your undeath, I don't think you'd be raised as a 73-year-old. Your body walking around mindlessly while you're dead is little different from your body rotting in a grave while you're dead, so the consequence of a resurrection would probably be the same.
Author:  Herra Tutteri [ Thu, May 13 2010, 10:49 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Silvarus wrote:
Herra Tutteri wrote:
What if they didn't die of old age but Kelly still says "no!" ?

Then they are past their natural lifespan and will not be resurrected. Natural lifespan can mean whatever event of death the gods want in their mysterious ways. :)


Booyah! Kelly the man!

EDIT: And let's say undead can't be raised and get on with our lives!
Author:  Jyro X [ Thu, May 13 2010, 10:50 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Silvarus wrote:
IronAngel wrote:
No, I would believe that falls under b, dying of old age.

The gods don't actively involve themselves with or decide normal people's lifespans, after all. You can cheat death in many ways, so I have a hard time believing this would be an exception.

Well alright, dying of old age then. If a char rolls 89 as his maximum age he will not be resurrected past that no matter how undeady he might have been in the mean time. :)

Exactly. And as I was told, the Resurrection spell returns your body/memories/etc to the same condition they were one hour previous to your death.

So, if you die and walk around as an undead for 50 years, get destroyed and then resurrected, you could go back 50 years + 1 hour. At least that's how it was explained to me by a DM. Sorry can't remember who.

And I'm wondering how this all affects sentient undead as well.
Author:  Yurell [ Thu, May 13 2010, 11:47 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
IronAngel wrote:
Yurell wrote:
Once they're destroyed, you can resurrect them if:
a) They haven't been dead past the allowed time
b) They didn't die of old age


What do you mean by allowed time? Do you mean the 10 years/level rule? (Which is not absolute, btw.)


Yeah, that's what I meant.

IronAngel wrote:
I wonder if that timer starts running when they're turned undead, or when the undead is destroyed. If the latter is the case, you could prolong someone's time indefinitely by turning them undead, then destroying and raising them in a few hundred years, and then repeating the process. However, it's not very useful because they couldn't stay alive for more than a while lest their living years end. But it would work as a kind of stasis.


AFAIK, your life timer only counts down while you're alive. Maybe it does if you're sentient undead too - if you're just a normal skeleton, though, "you're" not so much alive as your corpse is being used as a puppet.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Thu, May 13 2010, 14:16 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Wait ...

Then the whole Bendir-Dale attack vs Bane get's totaly confusing.

Cuz the captain was Raised dead, and then resurrected to life.

??????
Author:  Herra Tutteri [ Thu, May 13 2010, 15:21 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Very_Svensk wrote:
Wait ...

Then the whole Bendir-Dale attack vs Bane get's totaly confusing.

Cuz the captain was Raised dead, and then resurrected to life.

??????


That's why I encourage avoiding such nonesense or it turns into a scheisseschtorm.
Author:  762 [ Thu, May 13 2010, 18:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
You're talking about Nof? He should have been killed out of his zombie form first, then Resurrected. A Res on a walking undead does nothing.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Thu, May 13 2010, 23:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
You are raised at the exact moment of your death. Not an hour previous, not 20 years later, the exact moment.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Thu, May 13 2010, 23:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Quote:
So provided that the undead is destroyed, you can resurrect them to their previously healthy, totally alive state, provided they haven't been dead for an obnoxiously long time?


Yes.
Author:  Jyro X [ Fri, May 14 2010, 2:06 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
TormakSaber wrote:
You are raised at the exact moment of your death. Not an hour previous, not 20 years later, the exact moment.

Ah ok so the death memory loss of forgetting things that happened an hour prior is not kosher?
Author:  TormakSaber [ Fri, May 14 2010, 2:12 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
It's not necessarily "not kosher", but it is not currently an Amian rule. IT comes down to conduct between the players involved at the time. Comm... no, I won't say it.
Author:  MoshingChris [ Fri, May 14 2010, 3:53 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Communism. Said it for you.
Author:  Ghostie_1 [ Fri, May 14 2010, 4:21 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Galenson wrote:
Keep it simple stupid. The more indepth you try to explain something, the more complex it is to find an answer.

Can you resurrect a dead undead body? What you should be asking yourself is not can it be done, but why would you bother?


Dunno. The first thought I had was that were I cleric of a goodly priest, wouldn't I want to not just destroy that undead, but destroy the undead and raise the victimized person, restoring him/her to his/her former, healthy, glory? (Provided that the conditions would allow for that raise, of course. Time limit, didn't die of old age, etc.)

It doesn't seem logical that I would set about to simply destroy the undead. I would want to save those victims from so horrible a fate, right?

If that's the case, and I'm not just misunderstanding here, (Admittedly, there's a good chance that I am) it seems that there's a serious flaw in the current "let's go destroy the evil undead" RP, because it's missing a crucial goodly "Let's go rescue these victimized souls from the clutches of undeath" element.
Author:  Herra Tutteri [ Fri, May 14 2010, 7:13 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Hence why I still find it better to leave undeadies undeadies and just grind them to bone dust instead of starting to go all "ooh, I suppose I should help this poor creature to become a real boy again!". Much easier.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Fri, May 14 2010, 15:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
In a place "Not amia", you do not toss ressurection willy nilly because at the minimum it costs 5000 GP in diamond dust, and a ressurection costs 10,000 GP in diamonds and you don't just find diamonds laying around like you do in Amia to spend on any random joe's ressurection. It's simply unfeasible to ressurect, or attempt to ressurect, every undead you find.
Author:  Yurell [ Fri, May 14 2010, 15:45 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Plus they've probably been dead for a while and their souls may not be willing to come back to life after decades at the side of their gods.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Fri, May 14 2010, 16:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Nono. Undead still have their souls on toril, as far as i know.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Fri, May 14 2010, 16:53 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
No, they don't. They're dead.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Fri, May 14 2010, 17:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
But ghosts are "spirits trapped on the material plane for different reasons".
Author:  TormakSaber [ Fri, May 14 2010, 17:49 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Spirit =/= soul.
Author:  Xalyth [ Fri, May 14 2010, 18:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Most real religions state the difference between the soul and the spirit. And that life contains 3 things - body, soul, and spirit.

The soul is often referred to the thing that harbors are experiences and personality, that which can face eternal bliss or be damned to hell.

The spirit is often referred to as the force that combines the body and the soul, the raw energy that drives them forward and helps them cooperate. it's also the base for reincarnation.

What I can draw from it when it relates to D&D in any way, is that undead certainly hold the spirit - be it tied to a body or free floating, but undead that hold on to part of their past life do so only because the soul left an imprint of itself on the spirit that was so strong, that it pushes forward to complete it's task.

Many Ghosts and spirits are said to form from great turmoil or suffering. Plus, magic can do great things in D&D, forcing ties of spirit to corpses might fall into something it can do, since necromancers seem to get away with it. It explains why most undead are mindless, driven only to do what the nature of negative energy would have them do - consume positive energy.

As for intelligent undead - I can only reason that thing imprint of soul on the spirit is simply augmented, be it with magic or a curse, to the point that they retain sentience by some means - it's also known the undead that exist for many, many years, tend to drive themselves insane - most likely losing that had remained of the imprint of their soul.

What happens to their soul? Most likely taken on by their patron to become some higher creatures bootlick.

So, I agree with Tormak, undead are quite soulless, even if they might have the appearance of having one.
Author:  IronAngel [ Fri, May 14 2010, 18:52 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
That is true of ghosts and such, yes. But I'm fairly sure it doesn't apply to liches and vampires, who are quite themselves and can't move onto the afterlife. Well, I can't swear about vampires, but at least when it comes to liches. Then there's stuff like Revenants etc. who have to avenge something before a peaceful rest. They may not have a soul in them like living things do, but I doubt the soul is in the afterlife yet, either. (In the lich case, the soul is not in the undead but in the phylactery, for example. I think.)

But yeah, sentinence doesn't typically mean it's the same guy in there, that is, the soul.
Author:  Xalyth [ Fri, May 14 2010, 19:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Thats something I've always questioned as well - and the hardest thing I've tried to unravel about the nature of undead in D&D, what happens to the souls of intelligent undead.

Liches are said to be completely destroyed when their body and phylacteries are destroyed, they are completely destroy - Perhaps the transformation to a lich requires forsaking your soul, either having it consumed by a dark diety, or added to the force of another, thus removing any hopes for an afterlife in exchange for the ability to bind your will and mind to the phylactery. Nothing really explains it in great detail.

Vampires are interesting - many good people are turned to vampires unwillingly, are they then damned to courupt their souls in physical form for the rest of their life, or does it escape when the curse of undeath fills them?

Their need to feed to remain in control of their primal urges makes me think that in order to keep their link to there memories, such as a lich does, they are forced to consume positive energy, in the form of living blood.
Author:  IronAngel [ Fri, May 14 2010, 19:22 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Mm, yeah. To be completely fair and put this into the right perspective, though, we need to remember differents bits and pieces of undead lore come from dozens of sources, from mythology, folklore, fantasy, the different designers of D&D and the several authors who've left their paw mark on Forgotten Realms. There simply is no truth to these matters, no great scheme, and whatever systemizing has been done is only players and designers trying to make sense of it in retrospect. You will find contradictions wherever you look, so you need to make the final call.
Author:  Xalyth [ Fri, May 14 2010, 19:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Agreed, leaving my previous post as an explination of spirit vs soul, it can sum up most undead fairly well.

As for Liches and Vampires..... Magic did it.

So long as Stephenie Meyer is never used a creditable source of vampire lore, I'm happy!
Author:  Nickhersey [ Sat, May 15 2010, 3:13 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Why are they callled 'Undead'? They are cleary dead. Why not 'Forsaken' Or 'The Fallen' or something?
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sat, May 15 2010, 3:49 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Because they are "living dead". Walknig dead. Undeath, but not alive. You may as well ask why the language coined the word.
Author:  Gunz [ Sat, May 15 2010, 3:54 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Because they're dead, yet they walk. They -appear- to defy death -- and sometimes they kinda do (e.g. Lichs). And so you get Undead. Besides, it's a bad ass word! Undead. What can replace it and sound that cool, while properly portraying the way the creatures are viewed by the commoner?
Author:  Yurell [ Sat, May 15 2010, 5:07 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Resurrection/Undead
Thank Bram Stoker. They were dead, now they're animate, so they're 'The un-dead'
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/