I hate to post something once its become a matter of anger for me, but I figure it would be worse if I didn't.

Out of all the factions to ever threaten me with "completely in character" violence within one minute, I have to admit I had the least dislike for the Eternal Order, but somethings been bothering me. The order doesn't reflect the dogma of the god they are enforcing the dogma on.

I am, at this moment, having looked through Faith and Pantheons, and every other scrap of Faerun lore I can dig up, can find no support for the Eternal Order's list of banned spells. Point of fact, one of the spells they ban, actually appears on Kelemvor's list of granted spells (Repose domain.) As well as two spells, while not in the game, follow the same justifications as the banned spells (Speak with Dead and Deathwatch both use negative energy to grant undead abilities, or temporarily animate the dead.). And both those spells are granted to the faithful.

If the server runs its gods differently, that's great, but I've found nothing on the site to support this. Simply put the Order committing violence in the name of these rules runs contrary to the actual dogma of the god, even banning some of the gods spells and would constitute a breaking of paladin/clerical oaths.

Any character that had knowledge of religion that lived in this setting should know this, and the god would, its assumable, respond to an abuse of power in its name... but I honestly have no idea what you will, or should, do about this. I know a lot of people enjoy the order (And a lot of people hate them too, me I just hate PvP, and I hate unnecessary breaks from lore.), but something should be done.

**See Faith and Pantheons for a description of Kelemvor's dogma, and the Repose domain.

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There are some things GP can't buy, for everything else, theirs LooterCard.

You're complaining OOC about an IC order of IC characters worshipping their intepretation of an IC deity. Don't like it?

Go handle it IC.

Let the DMs handle the deities.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Some deities have different branches of orders, some are more militant than others and some view things different. Heck, even Ilmater got some very brutal pally order.

Oh god the shame, it burns.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

The problem is a lack of OUT OF CHARACTER understanding. The players think this is within Kelemvor's dogma. Kelemvor's dogma is an in game thing that's being mis-interpreted in game due to out of game reasons.

If an order of Sunites took to murdering ugly people, I'd complain just as fast.

If you are changing the actual religion that would be publicly available to learn about, I need to know Out of Game so that I can represent that knowledge when I'm playing my character.

And... to be honest I have an issue with you running the deity like this.

*Edit* Also, this isn't a "militant branch" A militant branch of a religion enforces dogma with force. THEY ARE MAKING UP DOGMA.

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There are some things GP can't buy, for everything else, theirs LooterCard.

And they're doing it 100% ICly without a care for OOC knowledge they've gleaned from a sourcebook, gods bless them, they're roleplaying character,s not book reporters.



Who cares what the players think? Why do you? why should THEY? They're not on Amia. Their characters are.

This is a huge disservice to the faction as a topic and really lose to the sort of blatant flaming we don't allow on the forums. If you have an issue with the faction you should have either spoken politely to the faction in a PM, or handled it in character, because that's what THEY do.



I'm not "Running the deity" like anything. they're roleplaying.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Deal with it IC. All your knowledge that hasn't been learned IG is OOC, and all that has been learned IG is IC. If your character disagrees with how the EO handles Kelemvore's dogma, deal with it IC.

Edit: Ninja'd.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Quite frankly we've played the faction for a very long time. Of course we take new players to the faction who might of course have less lore than us. We can't tell anyone how to play a Kelly, because it's very much ambiguous. We have tonnes of Custom and Canon knowledge about the faith in our forum.

The Kellies are meant to watch over the dead, so their eternal rest doesn't get disturbed. Now, we've interpreted that summoning undead is bad and against the doctrine of Kelemvor, so of course we deny it.

I am very sorry if we have messed something up with the spells and offended you (but for that I can blame the bastard tart who left EO and made up that list). It's only a game, not a nazi elitist server led by Hitler.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

It's not even that. Your order chooses to ICly ban spells. So handle it IC. You don't march into the forums and go "such and suh is wrong I demand you change it". We're working on principles by now.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Since when was discussing rules flaming? The reason I bring this up is because, by the rules, they'd lose their clerical powers. I can't make them lose their clerical powers in game. I'm not a DM.

I didn't know if them still having them was the DMs not knowing the dogma of Kelemvor (Which is understandable, Faerun has how many dozens of gods?), or because you did know it, and there was some other reason.

But here's another catch. How to get this knowledge in game? Kelemvor isn't secretive, any library or church would have the knowledge, but I can't actually go there and get it, can I? I can't pick up a book on Kelemvor unless you design one, can I?

And with Planar Binding I should be able to cast a single summon spell, pull up an Archon, and ask it "Is this what your god wants?"

Well, I guess you need to log into Bmia so I can go do these things. .

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There are some things GP can't buy, for everything else, theirs LooterCard.

No, by YOUR OPINION, they'd lose their cleric powers.

Again: the Tyr example. Paladins in the north fight slavers, free slaves, and espouse personal freedom. Paladins in the South are slave owners themselves and can be hired to track down escapig slaves and kill them or return them to their masters.

Neither Paladin loses their powers.

Torm has an order of Paladins that is allowed to use Undead. I bet the Golden Lion contends with the rest of the Tormite faith on a regular basis about the morality of that one, but neither side Falls, and the god doesn't seem too keen on amking one side or the other correct, because (presumably) they are both doing his works and following their interpretations of his dogma to the best of his ability.

Ilmater has an order of very violent, brutal holy workers who walk the line between Loviatar and Ilmater all the time. They bring a swift end to those who cause pain and suffering in others, so that the innocent may be spared that suffering. IN such a manner you could say they are preventative instead of curative like much of the other Ilmateri.

The Deities are not of mortal ken. Who are you to say what they do and do not find appealing, appeasing, and fine? The Eternal Order brings violence to necromancers, slays undead, and does as they see fit with it. Trust the DMs to know what they are doing, and don't set yourself up in a martyr-like position as the last bastion of knowledge in a sea of ignorance. Get your nose out of a sourcebook and just go roleplay.

BTW, if you summon said archon and ask that, he probably doesn't know. After all, who is he even to question the might of Lord Kelemvor, Greater Deity of Faerun?

This isn't a rules discussion, this is an opinion discussion, where you are trying to force your OOC opinion on the IC world.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Those actions are all within the dogmas of their specific religions. What we have is a group creating its own dogma. If a Kelemvorite started using his clerical powers to raise the dead, what would happen then?

*Edit* I just want to understand why. Saying it isn't my place to ask questions isn't answering that. I'll ask the questions in game, but then I need a response in game.

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There are some things GP can't buy, for everything else, theirs LooterCard.

They aren't "Creating their own dogma". They are following their interpretation of Kelemvor's dogma.

And even if they WERE creating their own dogma, why do you care? Let the DMs handle this if it's needed. Go RP.


Aaand, no, it's not. Torm pretty freaking clearly hates and despises undead. But he lets the golden Lion use them. Hmmmmm.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Because the situation is turning to immediate PvP on sight, and I don't like that. I think DM intervention is needed.

PS Just so we're clear, this isn't about animating magic, this is about things like ray of enfeeblement. And evidently about spells KELEMVOR GRANTS. Those are banned too.

So yes, I think the DMs DO need to handle it, its why I brought it up. I can't go RP when I've got people twice my level killing me then saying "I need to go spend time in this cage, otherwise I'm cheating."


*Edit* And it would be one thing if they were evil, but their not. In a realm where your god can ACTUALLY TELL YOU IF YOUR DOING IT WRONG... ok, I accept that he isn't. And I need to find out why in game.

Which means I need a DM who knows why present when I go look over lore and talk to npcs/do summons to gain information.

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There are some things GP can't buy, for everything else, theirs LooterCard.

If they want to ban it ICly thats's their perogative. Handle it IC.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I didin't even know we had a list of banned spells. I bet my kelemvorite mage even uses a few.

Go figure.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

You at least understand why some players, making a decision to MAKE UP the rules of an established deity, then using those rules to screw over myself, would make me angry, right?

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There are some things GP can't buy, for everything else, theirs LooterCard.

But.. I... that's not what he said at all. You're not even reading it! It's not their players! IT's their characters! Who cares! Go RP it out!

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

You are only disallowed usage of said spells IC'ly. Noone is going to punish you out of character for using IC'ly banned spells.

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

But it is. Its what's happening. The decision to enforce this list, which according to the characters in game, and the players out of game, is based on the rules of their church, is false. Its something they created. And their using it as a justification to have people far higher level then me, threaten me if I don't do what they say and have blatantly said yes they will make good on the threats.

Yes the LARGE GROUP is going to hunt and kill me as they've said they would. The people higher level then me will smoke me. Likely more then once. Woo, hoo. Yeah, its in game, and yeah, it ruins the game for me, because what can I do?

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There are some things GP can't buy, for everything else, theirs LooterCard.

It's like a Lutheran and a Catholic arguing..
It's interpretation of dogma, and views gained by having a faction for a good long time on Amia. The Order's grown and develop as a result of the other PCs that they have RPed with.

I'll even go as far as to justify it with OOC knowledge.


That's the only lore info I've ever seen on the Eternal Order. What's been done on Amia is developing it further, based around that fact. They devote their entire life to destroying undead (and the gits who run around playing with them). It's really that simple. The Eternal Order is a millitant order devoted exclusivly to destroying the undead, the people that create them and whoever defend any of the two. Other duties of a Kelemvorite are put behind all this, though the Order have been involved in perma-death burial and last rites in the past as well.

Also Kelemvor is a NEUTRAL deity, which means his paladins or clerics can be Good, evil and neutral as long as they are only one step away from lawful neutral.

If your char somehow ICly mingle with people that use undead, or any other thing the Order concider unsavory, you shouldn't act surprised if they act hostile towards you, for the same reason you don't kick Mark Dorne in the groin. They don't have to play nice. IF any of them were in conflict with Kelemvorite dogma, they would have gotten fallen a long time ago.

Though I think of this as complaining that a Tyrran executed someone when he stole from a noble, or with little evidence. Religious zealots don't need alot to have a very good excuse to off you or arrest you. And as long as the EO don't hold hands with an undead, they pretty much have their arses covered.

And yes, the EO have written down loads of lore and custom rules, done ICly by the various members of the Order. I wrote some of it including the "blacklist" of spells they have issues with, back when I played Maioth in the Order.

As one who's both played as an EO, and who's had chars that bumped heads with them on more than one occation I can say that it is VERY easy to solve any issue you have with the ICly, as long as you don't take a trip on the git-highway. Shouting insults at people that hold you prisoner only helps you in Movies. Playing along and pleading or simply keeping a level head will help you in just about any bad situation. With not only the Order, but any other person out there.

Because the big secret is that just because the CHARS are Gits, don't mean the players are.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Two things, 1) This has nothing to do with creating undead. Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't create undead.
2) He's Lawful Neutral, meaning he should take disrespecting his dogma by his followers fairly seriously. And unlike with Christians and Lutherans, he can respond.

And I've never gotten into shouting matches with anyone, but you can understand the concept of a very large and active group actively hunting the crap out of me bothers me.

Sure, they aren't everywhere, and I can try to avoid them.

Now excuse me, I'm going to go put some epic traps in Amia North. Try to avoid them, if you please? (Obvious sarcasm, but you get my point.)

*edit* Ultimately, the largest issue, which would determine whether I have to retire my low key, non necromantic character or not is simply "Is this what the god actually decrees?" I'd like to find that out in game.

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There are some things GP can't buy, for everything else, theirs LooterCard.

Yes it's something I created, because before it was created just the mention of "necromancy" could get you burned. Believe it or not, the list that was written down (as wrong as it may be), cut down the numbers of "necromancers" the order fought.

The list is limited only to create undead spells, inflict wounds spells and necromantic death spells now, I think.

The list was created IC. To complain that it's wrong OOCly is just bad behavior.

Again, if you have an OOC issue with one of the players, talk it out with them. And in your post there, about attacking lower level chars.. I'm going to go out on a limb and ask: Were your low level char rude to them? Because that's what happens if you are rude or bitchy to someone stronger than you too. Just because they came there and started the RP with you, don't mean they were out for PvP or anything of the sort.

You don't shout at a 6 feet tall tatooed biker, when you bump into his parked bike. You figure out ways to get out of it with your skin intact. Don't go expecting special treatment just because you are a lower level.


2. YOU say he's disrespecting his Dogma OOCly, because you disagree with how he RP it. And it breeds the question: Who the heck are you to tell us how to RP OUR chars? How a char ICly interpret the dogma is his own problem. And the DM's duty to fall him if he mis-steps. Not YOURS. That statement just smells of Elitism, and Amia is a live and let live server, unless the DMs say something is wrong. They haven't here, to my knowledge.

And go right ahead and drop some epic traps in the forest. I'm pretty sure it's against the rules and will get you banned, but if you feel you need to make a point by doing it.. It's not anyone's problem but yours.

If you got in trouble for using a Ray of Enfeeblement spell, then you could have easily talked your way out of it. The EO have let people off the cook when they summoned undead even, after a quick trial. And all it does is breed more RP, as they then have to report to a lecture or lession in the do's and don'ts of such.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Going into the OOC too much imho.


Its a valid concern to clarify with the DM if the EO can still cast spells as the DMs mightve overlooked something.

DM ruling? Yes.

There shouldnt be any questions after that really.

Youre arguing based on OOC knowledge.
Whats to say the EO might actually be sharrens sowing seeds of destruction? Its nice not to let things up too much.

Also : Them forcing their doctrines on you is no different from a bully/banite/highway man. Why argue? And why get OOC riled because you OOC assume they truly are Kelemvourites?
Just react as your PC would. Spread the word and try to turn the server against them for example.
its more fun =D

Awesome!

I was getting tired of the "we love EO, woo!" messages. Finally someone to twist arm with!

So, I'll continue:
Yo, you damn Schnitzel! We're the EO! We got guns, we got magics, we got dudes and dudettes... We got tha powah to be bastards!

Carry on.

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Characters:
Hunar Iroff, The red-bearded, grumpy dwarf with a bastard sword. Chair of Military Issues
Daren Sten, High Inquisitor of the Eternal Order of Kelemvor on Amia

Locked.

This thread serves zero purpose except to argue a DM Ruling which was already given in game in regards to the same situation you're referencing, Gradea, and the same situation you're arguing. The DMs decide if the Paladin falls, changes alignment, or anything of the rest. Not you.

Drop it.

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Mostly Retired