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Gexx44

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 16:47 PM

Player

Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Location: Denton Texas U.S.A.

So uh, for all my years here as Jessie, the word Jessie and Horseman have never been known to exist in the same sentence and neither his face. I've taken overly paranoid steps to insure this and the only way one would know is if one of the horsemen captains or andras or something told on him basically.

Cordor will not allow me to enter since Horsemen are now banned without DM supervision, but I wish to ask permission to enter without supervision being most my characters time is spent there and it would vastly kill me rp due to the chapel of lathander being there (since I'm in the dawnguard, which took a lot of effort to join and I like to be proud of the accomplishment). I have entered the Kohlingen Keep, welcomed by the people of the faction and acknowledged me there and did nor spoke of any metagaming i was doing, simply called me a spy. I wish to ask this permission for I think this rule was made to affect most people but not kill critical players who feed of this spy rp, which is really REALLY hard to keep up when you have Horseman floating above your head, but I kept it to prove rp can win over meta.

So, in general, may i go into Cordor and other Horseman banned areas without a dm so long as I'm -not- in my Horseman outfit, and if i were discovered i would assume that i then need dm permission to enter places im banned from, since im now a known horseman.

Zanthair

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 17:33 PM

Player

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya

actually similar scenario, absolutely nobody outside the HoA leadership and long time members knows my guy is a horseman, and hes got a signet ring granted to him by the shrine giving him access to the city. Do I have to get DM supervision to enter cordor now?

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ShortSlasher

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 18:05 PM

Player

Joined: 21 May 2007
Location: Western Mass

Unknown Banites also can't enter without DM supervision. Just how it goes.

Gexx44

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 18:32 PM

Player

Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Location: Denton Texas U.S.A.

I'd like to believe it isn't just how it goes, and that we have free thinking minds which can make justified exceptions. I was only informed of this today by a guard ooc, he said he personally didn't care but a dm might if the dm saw me. So I thought I might take the time to submit a request, and I am very certain the dm team isn't against spy pcs and I have worked very hard against the odds stacked against it, it has lots of rp riding against it that I can get plenty to vouch for, so I think it is within my right to ask for such an exception, rather than having my character no longer live in Kohlingen or be a spy after like three years or so.

So in short, I like to think my situation is a little different than a random open to the public banite trying to walk into Cordor with a helm and different color set on as opposed to my secretive spy, whos only known allies are lathander and the triad, he also lives in kohlingen and his face and name are unrelated to the tag oocly floating above his head, hes been let into the keep by the triad freely and a dm (which I was unaware of) observed and sent me a tell which was not a complaint of rules or metagaming guards.

Lutra

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 18:51 PM

Player

Joined: 12 Feb 2008

*coughs* Jessie was never really acknowledged in Kohlingen.

Honestly...I don't know why did you start a thread about this issue? You could have simply sent a PM to either Wonwon or Yossarin to ask for permission.

Mahtan

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 20:33 PM

Player

Joined: 28 May 2006
Location: That place with the green grass and that blue sky.

No. I'm sorry but that is how it just has to go. You are banned for being included in that faction. Same as new members that join and had no clue they were going to now suddenly be banned.

Yes it sucks but that is just how we decided to have to do things. If you need to be in Cordor ask a DM.

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Godo

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 21:06 PM

Player

Joined: 26 Aug 2009

Why is that how it has to go? Some complain about metagameing the guards then turn around and metagame the totals above someone’s head. If the character is not known as in a faction by other characters, besides the overhead title, then neither would the guards.

I am sorry but that’s a broken system that needs fixed rather then just to say that’s the way it goes, it is replacing RP with metgameing.

Grymia

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 21:15 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

In many, but not all cases:

The Titles above people's heads are there because with few exceptions (to which usually a quick tell clarifying if they'd have symbology on at the time) , the person is always wearing SOME sort of symbol identifying their organization .

BrainSplitter

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 21:29 PM

Player

Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia

Unfortunately, for all you know; the Cordorian Guard or other local military in any area you're banned from might, in fact, know exactly who you are.

It's for this reason, in addition to the general lack of responsibility on behalf of most players to be able to handle such properly, that the rule remains in place.

I will quote what I've said in other banned faction forums;

If you're banned from Cordor, please stay out unless you've got a DM to oversee the NPCs. Disguised, Invisible, Sanctuaried, 'Unknown', or otherwise.

If you are a part of a faction that is banned; then said individual is banned as a part of that faction. Very straightforward.

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Zanthair

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 21:32 PM

Player

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya

actually, as far as the horseman were concerned, way back when we were made to get our name out there we decided on going with the Horseman tag. Not because we were wearing insignia, but for a more ooc reason of showing horsemen were online and kind of PR advertising. The tags shouldnt be metagamed, and unless there is strict proof of us being members, then there is no reason we should be banned from entering Cordor, or anywhere else horsemen are banned.

this is different from, say, the surfacer ban of Ultrinnan, humans are very easily identified, but a face in a crowd who nobody knows is a horseman, and furthermore in gexx's case where he actively works with the dawnguard he has known associations with them in the city.

to be honest, i think the last time my horseman was seen in public with other members of HoA was back before william had passed on, which was RL years ago, and before i was even a member.

edit - but, if thats the ruling then i guess i'll have to live with it. sucks, but oh well

Yossarin

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 22:20 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Lame. Already answered this question once, and you take it public because you don't like the answer. You're going to receive the same answer, publically: get a DM.

You think the NPCs don't know who you are, but you may very well be wrong. What if another PC has secretly gotten your description and name and other relevant details and provided it to the authorities without your knowledge, and they are simply waiting for the opportunity to bag you...but it requires a DM to be there to do it? By asking to be let in without DM supervision, what you're actually doing (and we all see right through it) is ignoring the RP of another player and doing whatever serves your interests, and not the interest of the community.

The above is just an example. Other reasons why your PC in whatever faction needs to inform a DM could be...beneficial to you and your faction. It all depends.

On the flipside, nothing at all may happen when you enter Cordor. Under DM supervision, you may enter the city without a hitch. It all depends upon certain factors you aren't privvy to, but that we are.

Kudark

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 22:23 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon

Please forgive my ignorance, it is why I am asking.
What is the reason behind banning Horsemen from Cordor?
Are they an evil organization?
I read Forgotten Realms material extensively, and I've not heard of them.

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Grymia

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 22:25 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

A bit more to them then simply being evil but yes, they're banned from Cordor to my knowledge.

And Yossi has a very, very .. VERY good point. You can't guarantee someone hasn't gotten intel on you and gotten it to Cordor's authorities one hundred percent.

You can be very, very careful. But, you can't be certain.

Gravemaskin

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 22:28 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

Kudark wrote:

IC conflicts the organization had with Cordor, have gotten IC consequences I imagine.

The EO was banned from Cordor for IC conflicts, and the best way to resolve it is going IC and try to solve it there.

If you join that organization while they are banned, and they failed to inform you.. that's their fault I think. When you join a faction, you take up all their allies and enemies as your own. Including places they are allowed or not allowed to go.

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Yossarin

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 22:30 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

The Horsemen are currently working on something, btw, so if cards are played right, there may be changes.

Grymia

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 22:34 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

*nods*

I have to admit, I can relate to the uncertain feeling one might get on if they're meant to be hidden but might indeed not be. It's... tense.

I'm curious to see what the Horsemen do that Yossarin has so alluded to.

Kudark

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 22:35 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon

Thanks for the response

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blackvswhite

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 22:44 PM

Player

Joined: 08 Nov 2008

Cordor's guards are omniscient and omnipotent.

Why?

It's easier that way. Very black and white and the DMs don't have to deal with individual cases.

DustSpray101

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 22:47 PM

Player

Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale

*coughs* Cordor is secretly run by Ao... *coughs*

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Grymia

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 22:48 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

blackvswhite wrote:

Cordor's guards are omniscient and omnipotent.

Why?

It's easier that way. Very black and white and the DMs don't have to deal with individual cases.

Not nescessarily either:

But, there are a LOT of factors you can't easily represent without DMs acting and controlling the city.

Gexx44

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 22:56 PM

Player

Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Location: Denton Texas U.S.A.

Dms are not always on and dont often respond to calls due to other business they have. This really just sounds like spies are banned from play, being Ive always rped being in kohlingen as a Horseman and Im quite certain that -still- no one knows, especially being im in the dawnguard, which is opposed by horseman as well, so i guess that means i cant be in the horsemens base or the dawnguards base?

It has taken a long time to take on this extremely difficult and rewarding spy rp but i guess its all destroyed thanks to ooc difficulties, but im not asking to have the rule destroyed, just for an exception, since clearly no one knows im of the horsemen, then the guards should not know either. I ask this exception for my rp relies on this much more heavily than other characters and i wish to freely support this rp, rather than needing, a faction member, a dm, and me on all at the same time, every single time i play.

Therefore, I ask permission to enter such areas without needing a dm all the time, for this is where most my rp takes place. I understand this rule is for the general public, so instead of letting it fix some things and destroy others, can we not make exceptions when valid proof has been given? i have rp to support this, lots and lots and lots of rp, and it is not so simple to call a dm, i usually like to play and not converse with dms as to not bother them or get on their badside, im just asking for an exception, do i not meet requirements for an exception to this rule? I know exceptions must have been okayed for this or something, otherwise certain factions i wont mention would be completely destroyed of rp... Im sure this does not have to be a stubbornly adamant rule. I can verify I am unknown as a horseman, i could list the precautions i take. I really want this rp, i dont want to see -years- of rp destroyed over one random new rule, so i wish permission for this single char, not any of my others, just this one long rped spy. Please and thank you.

Last edited by Gexx44 on Mon, Apr 26 2010, 23:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.

StandingBehindYou

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 23:06 PM

Player

Joined: 24 Nov 2008

BrainSplitter wrote:

I will quote what I've said in other banned faction forums;

If you're banned from Cordor, please stay out unless you've got a DM to oversee the NPCs. Disguised, Invisible, Sanctuaried, 'Unknown', or otherwise.

In the past I've heard that PC guards can also serve this role. (Providing a presence that makes an attempted entry permissible, not overseeing NPCs.) Is that true / not true?

ShortSlasher

Posted: Mon, Apr 26 2010, 23:11 PM

Player

Joined: 21 May 2007
Location: Western Mass

I think if PC guards have access to the same info NPC guards would, then yes.

Yossarin

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 0:21 AM

Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

blackvswhite wrote:

Cordor's guards are omniscient and omnipotent.

Why?

It's easier that way. Very black and white and the DMs don't have to deal with individual cases.

Wrong. Nabbing a DM is how we actively deal with individual cases, instead of letting them slip through the cracks.

Gexx, make your case to me in PM, and make it a good one.

Yurell

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 0:23 AM

Player

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

blackvswhite wrote:

Cordor's guards are omniscient and omnipotent.

Why?

It's easier that way. Very black and white and the DMs don't have to deal with individual cases.

They're not omniscient or omnipotent. They can most certainly be killed, but as for the omniscience, it's more like Schröedinger's Cat - there's no way to know if they do or don't know you until you make an observation. Can't make an observation until a DM is on, simple.

Edit: Ninja'd

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Dwagin

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 0:58 AM

Player

Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod

ShortSlasher wrote:

I think if PC guards have access to the same info NPC guards would, then yes.

No. If it requires even admission of no action in a situation that includes NPC's. DM supervision is required. That is something a Cordorian Guard PC can not do.

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blackvswhite

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 1:50 AM

Player

Joined: 08 Nov 2008

well... they automatically know whether or not you are shifted.... in a faction regardless of who you've told, if anyone at all... You are to assume they can kill you straight up if you plan to do anything illegal within the city, and they most likely ~will~ see you do it...

so unless a DM is on and aware, guards are at least to be treated as if they are all gods... They are to be assumed able to stop you if a DM isn't there...

Yurell

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 2:11 AM

Player

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

blackvswhite wrote:

You don't know the upper bound of their powers. Therefore, assume the highest possible upper bound until you're told it's lower. Only a DM can tell you it's lower, so assuming that they will be able to detect you without DM presence is fairly logical and simple.

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Godo

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 2:52 AM

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Joined: 26 Aug 2009

Actually it is not logical at all. If a member of the horsemen infiltrated a prominent group in Cordor that is against the horsemen then the guards themselves would see that person as a member of that group and not one of the horsemen. Now if there was RP of some mole in the horsemen that ousted that member they would have ousted them from the opposing faction they infiltrated first, apparently that has not happened.

I can understand famous villains and specific people from a faction as being banned because they are well known, but not a whole faction that only that faction knows every member. New members would not be known at all by the guards or anyone, unless as I said there was actually a PC mole that is Rping that out. If Gexx didn’t have that tag over his head then I do not think anyone would have said anything about it because IC wise no one knew. Again it’s a matter of OOC tags being used to destroy IC RP and that is what hurts the whole community the most.

Yurell

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 3:03 AM

Player

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

Yes it is logical. You do not know what the guards know, so it is safest to assume they know everything unless the DMs say otherwise. What's more, it's also the rule. If you want to infiltrate, get a DM. Otherwise, assume the NPCs know everything. Simple.

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Grymia

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 3:09 AM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

The problem is:

If you are an infiltrator, you would need to have the DMs overseeing you to know how successful or unsuccessful you are.

Alternatively, you would need them to fairly handle the guards who would by all rights be reacting to you if you were indeed causing trouble.

Gexx44

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 3:14 AM

Player

Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Location: Denton Texas U.S.A.

Ill do so tomorrow morning then Yossarin because my brain isnt awesome right now.

Zanthair

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 3:43 AM

Player

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya

my zannie just wants to get a drink at his favorite surface bar, the nomad. now he has to go all the way to the noway inn just to get a sip of ale.

edit - if i have time can i shoot you over a rationale for getting into cordor as well, yoss? will most likely be tomorrow, but i have no idea how long my census training session will run, and id write it now but it starts in less than 9 hours and i need sleep.

Yossarin

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 3:51 AM

Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Sure thing, Zanthair. Our intent is not to stymie your RP. Our intent is more nebulous and enigmatic than that.

TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 3:54 AM

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

The answer is to drop this silly fad of "Faction tags" if you don't want to be metagamed as wearing a recognizeable emblem of your faction, for one, and to contact a DM about going into a city, for two.

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Vaylek

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 3:55 AM

Player

Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia

Hmm.. random question. Are sharrites banned from or scrutinised closely in Cordor? If they are, then how could that whole plot have happened involving the sharrites at that corner club? Did they ask for DM supervision every time they entered the city?

I thought the awesome thing about that whole plot was how the sharrites were right under everybody's nose all along, but this seems to make it impossible for similar RP to occur at all in Cordor. If that's what DMs want, that's fine.

Also, with Gexx's character. What if he attempted to enter Cordor under DM supervision once, showing his face and even giving his name plainly to the guards... and successfully made it in? Does he still need supervision every time he enters now that he knows he's not on the guard's radar?

One last question. What about spies who are employed by a group such as the horsemen? Maybe they are full time agents who are interested in furthering the Horsemen's cause, but not technical members of the faction. They allowed in?

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TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 4:04 AM

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

I will not answer questions about the Sharrans because they are a secret faction and I will not metagame them for your sake.

The answer to your other questions is and always has been, as Yossarin has said, "get a DM."

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Zanthair

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 4:06 AM

Player

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: [st]Ultrinnan[/st] [st]Edonil[/st] Nec'perya

i suppose thats why some of us are PMing rationale for entering Cordor unsupervised. If there is legitimate cause for the guard to not know our identity, the ban is lifted on a case by case basis (from what I understand)

and I agree with tormak, lifting faction titles from names would be nice.. would prevent a lot of metagaming. Pretty sure i was assaulted by a drow from the shrine once solely because of my faction title naming me as evil, despite having a signet ring (which i showed) granted to me by jud himself. (while having the faction tag, mind you). Not having the tag would have prevented the whole sicuation, I believe, as she would have seen the ring and would have had no cause to attack, having already been cleared to enter cordor by her people.

762

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 5:46 AM

Player

Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida

So if you're a well known member of a banned faction, you're banned without a DM.
If you're a brand spanking new member of a banned faction, you're banned without a DM.
If you're a spy employed by a banned faction, you're banned without a DM.
If you're someone who could potentially be mistaken for any of the above (because in theory, Cordor guards could do that), you're banned without a DM.

Why not just make it simple? No one can enter Cordor without a DM.

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Peeves

Posted: Tue, Apr 27 2010, 6:04 AM

Player

Joined: 08 Jul 2008

Seriously guys, common sense. Please follow the rules.

Locked.

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Infiltrating Cordor

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