AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

This is a thread I've been meaning to create for years, but I have been procrastinating.

Ever since I had lobbed my first fireball and noticed it harming a goblin, my familiar, but none of the party that I was with, I have found it odd to RP around. Similarly playing a character that is in the blast area. I can always put it down to "ah, it's magic. I meant for you to not be harmed" but it feels like dumbing down. Does Party Protection make us lazy, less responsible with spells? Or are they a blessing? Are we being too pampered? Or is the pampering a necessity?

I'm genuinely interested in what everyone has to say on party protection.

And just a note: I have no real problem with Party Protection, and have no agenda attached to this topic other than general discussion. This is not a proposal for change.

Have your say!

Aoe spells, should be just that ..Aoe spells...

I say, FULL PVP MODE! Part protection is lame.

Full PvP sucks for mages, hard.

Even on single target spells people in your party end up getting killed when you misclick. It makes you far too vulnerable to the stupidity of the interface.

Mages are kinda OP and win by default anyway, why not raise the bar a little?

Mages are only "OP" in PvP, where AoE spells take a big back seat to disabling spells, which are being nerfed anyhow.

Full PvP adds no RP besides *raises dead party* "Sorry, my fault".

Interface issues, as said. The lack of a grid, which is commonly used in PnP games where you can fry your allies, as well, should be considered. Lag, mouse failures, etc etc need to be taken into account.

In general, I think it comes down to not wanting to make partying less desirable than soloing. If a mage can already solo, and only worry about nuking his summons.. why would he group up and then have to worry about not hitting his allies.. or just resort to the same 'ole buff and sanctuary/invis? *Yawn*

My $0.02.

That is why you target all your fireballs on the party rogue. He runs into the spawn and becomes an invulnerable suicide bomber. At least Hellball affects everyone, besides a little more caution on the party's part while the caster is flinging destruction is not a bad thing IMO.

Oh god i would LOVE full PvP.

The first mage i played was on a full pvp server and man, does it take some learning to use a mage when your spells can kill your team! Its wonderful RP, imo, too.

Though im thinking the spawns might need a little rebalance should this be added, sence a Mage couldnt nuke into the middle of his friends anymore. But i suppose thats not a huge issue, id rather have the full pvp and be a little worse off. I cant stress enough how much fun it was learning on my first mage ever, how to better use my spells so as not to hurt the team. It also makes spells like Firebrand AMAZING for groups, where as a fireball can be a good opening spell.

Mhmm... The current thing, where you shoot 10 fireballs and your partymembers go "Was that a fly?" its not realistic.

You should be careful as a caster. Not throw yourself and party members headless into danger.

There is a shit ton of stuff in NwN that is "not realistic". We don't go on a relentlss pursuit of hyperrealism if it makes the game sucky to play.

I have played on full PvP. Full PvP sucks. Hard.

Don't mind my nit picking. I'm mainly being devil's advocate here.

Nivo wrote:

Interface issues, as said. The lack of a grid, which is commonly used in PnP games where you can fry your allies, as well, should be considered. Lag, mouse failures, etc etc need to be taken into account.

All these things are taken into account on a subconscious level by most when playing, I would say. Playing in more harsh conditions only makes one a "better" player. We're humans! We're amazing!

Nivo wrote:

In general, I think it comes down to not wanting to make partying less desirable than soloing. If a mage can already solo, and only worry about nuking his summons.. why would he group up and then have to worry about not hitting his allies.. or just resort to the same 'ole buff and sanctuary/invis? *Yawn*.

That's entirely up to the player. Being more thoughtful of what direction your cones take is always a good thing. When is caring about the safety of your team mates a bad thing on an OOC or IC level?

Of course adapting to different roles is difficult for a sorcerer, but wizards are built to adapt! If you moan about having to change your spell book for the sake of being in a party (more xp guaranteed) is being a wizard the best choice of class? Of course, not all AoE spells affects are entirely mages. There are clerics, and disposables like caltrops & gasses.

Casting protection from elements on allies also helps, no? There are many approaches.
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hendrack wrote:

Full PvP adds no RP besides *raises dead party* "Sorry, my fault".

I personally wouldn't go as far as saying that. I even get quite excited about the RP that can follow by a near fatal accident! Oh boy!

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762 wrote:

Mages are only "OP" in PvP, where AoE spells take a big back seat to disabling spells, which are being nerfed anyhow.

Presumably you mean A particular Bigby spell. But yea, the AoE spells wouldn't be as useful in a one-on-one PvP scenario.

Whenever I played my cleric, I'd always be careful not to go flinging AoE spells into battles with any of my group in them.. just out of common curtesy. Even if it doesn't "hurt" them, I'm sure it could still singe off some hair, give them a nasty head cold, something.

I would prefer full PVP.

I avoid AoE on party folk, as well.. not a fan of hurting summons and the familiar. Not like I hunt and level lately (one every other green moon I've been known..) as-is.

However, I posted mainly as devil's advocate, myself. There are plenty of OOC reasons for IC rules (technically, that wizard casting fireball that does not hurt you needs bat shit and sulfur to do so, but adding mundane components like that would lag the server needlessly), because at the end of the day, this is a game that is meant for everyone to enjoy. Sometimes we suspend disbelief (which should come natural for any RPG'er). However, it would effect balance, so on, and so forth, and I do not think it warrants change for the sake of change. On the flip side, it would make enemy only targeters that much more valuable to have in your spellbook.

However! Get hit from a fireball from a dastardly wizard ally? Berate him for damaging your clothes, burning your hair, and nearly killing you (no doubt)! That would make for some RP. :wink:

I think I normally chalk this one up to more suspension of disbelief. I try to be careful where I cast them, but I do have abyssmal aim and once lag kicks in, forget about it. Just because I have abyssmal aim doesn't mean Bubbles does. So, I prefer it as is for game mechanic reasons.

The only reason I would be against allowing the full PvP so that all AoE hits everyone is the very reason why I dislike people who Hellball the Goblins and think it's fun and kicks.

That is until the just hellballed on the edge of the huge fricken blast radius a returning party of low levels. And I had that happen twice where I was murderized by wreckless hellballers who wanted to show off.

Full PvP for all AoE effecting players is going to bring out (vulgar form of Jerks). It would really hurt the community of friendly play that Amia strives to achieve and uphold. We have enough with just a few spells that allow people to break PvP rules and attack without hostiling first, up to including mis-use of Taunt that forces broken mechanics (and may DM's smite you promptly if found exploiting!)

The very last thing I would want as a new player on Amia is to discover that some PC a few levels higher like to run about spellblasting and I'm at high risk to being caught in the cross-fire of stupidity - if not outright intentional abuse of the full PvP system.

It takes very responsible players to handle spellcaster's AoE in full PvP.

I'm going to flat-out say that Amia lacks the majority of very responsible players needed. The backlash of even the occassional bona'fied abuser is would be enough to bring a surge and outcry of rage to return to party PvP.

After all, if we had the majority of very responsible players, why is Cordor a no PvP zone when it's known for fact it used to allow PvP onslaught? Hellball anyone?

I'd prefer AoE's hurt party members.

See the thing is, there isn't any provision for the party mage to yell 'fire in the hole' and have all the party members dive out of the blast radius. Since they know that it's coming, they have time to do that and still leave the victims within the AoE. You can be pretty well assured that they would get out of the blast radius if they didn't want to get immolated.

Party protection is basically a synergistic convenience for people who don't want to roleplay a whole lot of repetitive *dives* and *ducks* during battle. You want to shoot yourself in the foot for the sake of being 'more real' - what is so real about the party mage lobbing a big nasty fireball without telling the party to get the hell clear?

Even if you did go full PvP, I would argue for party members to get a boost to their saves against friendly fire because it's not often they would miss a 'fire in the hole!' warning.

Also, not all AoE spells have a circular area of effect. It's a lot easier to not be in the way of a Cone of Cold or Lightning Bolt.

I would prefer full PVP, but... if you wanted to RP something like fireball hurting you, you could always use the rest menu, hurt yourself, and the accost the mage for hid bad aim.

Hate full PVP.

CANNOT TELL YOU how many times my little lvl 7 mage got killed by her own spells on Arelith. HATE.

Would definitely be some interesting RP and experience for Full PvP.

I usually avoid AoE spells, my spellsword usually flings a chain lightning, and yea some times an Ice Storm

You're gonna hate me for saying this but ... Learn to NOT Target yourself. Practice makes perfect.

Another issue with this going Game vs PnP that I see is in order to keep lag down the mobs (I'm just ignoring PvP here) only spawn when you get within a certain radius of their particular spawn point. Now for certain mobs that would be working around stealthily that makes some sense, but the majority of places you'd be able to see these groups of wandering creatures a ways off and a mage would be able to freely throw some of these spells as their band closes the gap safely with little worry of hitting their companions, but in order for this to work in game you'd need someone to trigger the spawn then back away and then go ahead as if you saw them from a distance. Most generally there are always going to be a few things that take away realism in order to make the game playable and enjoyable for the overall whole rather than the few, but this is just how I see it, and my vision has been known to be less than perfect.

Procyon02 wrote:

Another issue with this going Game vs PnP that I see is in order to keep lag down the mobs (I'm just ignoring PvP here) only spawn when you get within a certain radius of their particular spawn point. Now for certain mobs that would be working around stealthily that makes some sense, but the majority of places you'd be able to see these groups of wandering creatures a ways off and a mage would be able to freely throw some of these spells as their band closes the gap safely with little worry of hitting their companions, but in order for this to work in game you'd need someone to trigger the spawn then back away and then go ahead as if you saw them from a distance. Most generally there are always going to be a few things that take away realism in order to make the game playable and enjoyable for the overall whole rather than the few, but this is just how I see it, and my vision has been known to be less than perfect.

Another valid point; maybe I'm rushing too much? but there are times between my speed and some lag that by the time the group spawns, I'm standing in the middle of em all (Oh, hai!), as if they were all SDs and un-HIPs'd at once, lol. Does make it a darned bit harder on casting at all, much less anything like a fireball, etc.

hendrack wrote:

Full PvP adds no RP besides *raises dead party* "Sorry, my fault".

Full PvP is not an annoyance. Nor is it an RP-improver. It's just more fun, IMO. Can't say it's a big deal one way or the other, though.

If your version of fun is a mage or cleric or Druid not being able to use 90% of their spells due to hitting the party because of a realtime non grid based freeflow environment... yeah. I've played full PvP as the three classes above. You learned to love Call Lightning, Firebrand, IGMS a whole, whole lot. Because everything else tended to get your party killed.

Quote:

Area
• Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell
affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the
distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference
is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection. You can count diagonally
across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything
within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected
by the spell.
• Burst, emanation or spread: A burst can’t affect creatures with total cover from the point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners).
The default shape for a burst spell is a sphere, but some bursts are specifically described as cone-shaped.
• Cone, cylinder, line or sphere: A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of
your square and widens out as it goes.
When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell’s point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the
circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area.
A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its
range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares that the line passes through.
A sphere-shaped spell extends from its point of origin to fill a spherical area.

AoE nuking is already something that is mildly useful due to Mob HP in epic levels, improved evasion etc. No need to make it even -less- desirable.

Yups. Let's just assume that in Amia-FR, every caster has mastered Shape Spell to some degree to save their arty members.

TormakSaber wrote:

If your version of fun is a mage or cleric or Druid not being able to use 90% of their spells due to hitting the party because of a realtime non grid based freeflow environment... yeah. I've played full PvP as the three classes above. You learned to love Call Lightning, Firebrand, IGMS a whole, whole lot. Because everything else tended to get your party killed.

And FoD.

TormakSaber wrote:

Yups. Let's just assume that in Amia-FR, every caster has mastered Shape Spell to some degree to save their arty members.

That's great, but what about familiars and animal companions? If they're counted as part of the party, shouldn't they have the same protections as other members?

That one is a game mechanic we just sort of have to gloss over. That one can't be fixed, even in No PvP.

I don't think making it full PvP will add anything, other than make the mage a seriously buff-only class in PvM.

AxlLeigh wrote:

Hate full PVP.

CANNOT TELL YOU how many times my little lvl 7 mage got killed by her own spells on Arelith. HATE.

You do realise that even party protection still makes you vulnerable to your own spells. In Amia that makes no difference.

Self K.O. is always a possibility in Amia. Never click the AoE spell on an enemy, but on the ground

Mage already is a buff only class PVM especially at higher levels. Shame that.

Direct damage is not good enough to warrant the party using any tactics to avoid getting hit by it. Essentially a wizard throwing a fireball would hurt all those 8 con characters running around more than the spawns... Parallels rogues and traps really. Who's going to wait around for the rogue to painstakingly lay his traps when your party can clean up spawns and the boss in seconds (currently 6s I believe rounded to the nearest second for FGK is the fastest ive seen).

In an ideal world, i'd like full PVP rules but the way amia is, doing that would like it make less enjoyable...especially for mages who already feel like buff-bots anyway.

Well, accidentally killing your party is my idea of fun.

But yes, it's not very good in Amia due to mob balance and the high level cap. It would also require increased damage output from Evocation to make it worth the tactics, which in turn would unbalance PvP (and because you can unfortunately rest in hunt zones, possibly PvM as well).

IronAngel wrote:

Well, accidentally killing your party is my idea of fun.

The majority of the people killed, however, won't find it so.

"With great power comes great responsibility"

It would be fun. Mages spells should be more potent but he should have to be wise when he uses them, accurate etc etc. As it stands now, it'd be a lot of effort PVM with no real bang for your buck.

I get a kick out of RPing the effects of the AoE spells that have gone off around me just because I can.

For instance, when my dwarf learned Hellball, I intentionally got entirely too close to the spawn, and damned near blew myself up with my own hellball.

Now, that looked pretty stupid, but it was still fun being that dwarf frantically putting out the fires in his beard and getting incredulous looks from the party, especially because they played along and decided they needed to put out the fires in -their- beards/hair/clothes as well. As I recall, one of them even stopped, dropped, and rolled around on the floor of the Abyss. Provided a lot of laughs several times throughout that hunting experience.

"I learnt me a new trick, boys! ... Although, I'm fer bettin' that I oughta keep me happy arse a little further back afore I go squirtin' that one at the bad guys again, eh?"

Also, when playing other characters though, if a mage hurls a fireball (or whatever) into the spawn/party, I'll often RP standing amidst the dead trolls (or whatever) with smoking hair and scorched armor, generally giving the mage an unappreciative look.

While the effect isn't necessarily realistic in the sense that it didn't effect my character the way it would have on a full PvP setting, it still gives me some satisfaction to give it some measure of RP realism.

I'd like full PvP, but, there's just this one little thing that makes it hard to work with. Surely a mage, when they're deciding to fling a potentially deadly AoE spell will shout to the others to clear the way, but during combat, it's hard for most to type as well. I know I never make it in time, especially when everyone is hasted. Then there's the problem of missclicking. Then there's lag and bad-distance-calculations. Would be awesome for PvP though. I always found the issue fishy and generally avoid AoE spells when I'm with a party or even just with the summons because my mages wouldn't simply burn up their summon in hopes of falling the enemy first. And I love summons, so can't go without. The main tactic would become mage casts first and the rest storm what's left or the buff + summons/dominate.

That said, I wouldn't mind this being implemented but I wouldn't be affected much by it.

Full PvP would certainly drag mages somewhat down to earth, though i can see the fun abating after the tenth party kill.

I don't know how many times I've blown myself up on my Drow Sorc xD.
That should tell you that it doesn't make me lazy at all.

Do you get SR on self-hits?

Nerfing Mage spells further and adding a full PvP doesn't at all help ANY of the mages that actually do something called multiclassing(it usually occurs).

I'm getting really sick of seeing my multiclassed mage(whos spells are already failing to do previous nerfing) get weaker everytime someone (who doesn't play mages, spams KDs, and drinks enough potions to make them immune to everything) complains about the way the magic works.

My caster PM who I've played for years is a hell of a lot weaker than when I first started playing. Now his spells can't kill s--t, do s--t, control s--t, and soon won't be able to knock down s--t.

Oh...and on top of that I could kill my own fey accidentally or a weaker friend...if my spell is even strong enough to do that now.....

*mutters* Getting sick of the mages having their balls cut off frankly.

Your spells are failing because you're a palemaster, not because they were nerfed. Please direct your complaints to the proper party. Most spells have gotten a buff and monsters tweaked to that your spells work better provided you are using the right spell for the right target.

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