AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Ok, we all know this feat is all kinds of messed up. I wanted to ask if it could be altered so that it is atleast an RP viable option and not something that should be avoided at all times. I don't have anything to offer change wise, but I seriously think something could be done about it. Just enough to make it usable.

Thanks,

I've seen on-hit blind done elsewhere.

I'd imagine on-hit blind to be far too powerful.

I call a gender specfic feat, on males it makes them get knocked down on their knee's from crotch shot.

On females it makes them blind from eye gouging.

xD

Or

Just make it another form of Knockdown attack that works on Dex instead of STR.

well knockdown is a discipline check. you mean like a discipline check that uses dex mod instead of str?
perhaps make it against .... tumble?

Terrible idea, and as for the first, onhit blind is too powerful to just freely gie out.

TormakSaber wrote:

Terrible idea, and as for the first, onhit blind is too powerful to just freely gie out.

What he said.

Confusion or some other mental effect then?

I'm thinking like a suckerpunch or something. If it could be controled, make it only trigger once per round or something though. The other attacks would just be made regular.

It's bad enough to have some of the OnHit effects we currently see on weapons.

well 1d4 damage is obviously extremely underpowered and worthless when you have to sacrifice all other attacks in the round... maybe if it was 1 damage per lvl or something

How about a random effect that gets rolled each time you use it?

d10

1-2 - DC15+str mod fort save or blinded for 10 rounds.

3-4 - DC15+str mod will save or confused for 5 rounds.

5-6 - 1d12 damage

7-8 - reduces move speed by 10%

9-10 - DC 20+str mod fort save or stunned for 5 rounds.

I dunno, just a suggestion. The face that you can't control its effect (which represents the spare-of-the-moment ingenuity of dirty fighting maneuvres) makes it less strong.

Probably too big a task to script, but meh, I agree with the OP, I don't like when character options such as feats get 100% ruled out of everybody's builds.

Mmm, It could be made better, and probably SHOULD be made better. Its just an issue of how...

+1 damage/2 levels? I think per level would be too overpowered, but thats just an uneducated guess. I don't tend to make hard hitters.

I like Vayleks radom result suggestion

have to say.. I almost wet myself.. when I I had a thought about on hit blindness... and daphnia's next fighter feat. soI would say no.. because if I like it.. it's always no >.>

There are plenty of other useless feats. The thought of changing them all is silly.

Vaylek wrote:

How about a random effect that gets rolled each time you use it?

d10

1-2 - DC15+str mod fort save or blinded for 10 rounds.

3-4 - DC15+str mod will save or confused for 5 rounds.

5-6 - 1d12 damage

7-8 - reduces move speed by 10%

9-10 - DC 20+str mod fort save or stunned for 5 rounds.

I dunno, just a suggestion. The face that you can't control its effect (which represents the spare-of-the-moment ingenuity of dirty fighting maneuvres) makes it less strong.

Probably too big a task to script, but meh, I agree with the OP, I don't like when character options such as feats get 100% ruled out of everybody's builds.

Those DCs are waaaaaay too powerful.

Yeeeah. I was thinking like, DC12. Something you basically have to spam for 1's to have an effect.

Blindness might be a bit much, but anything blocked by a mindblank is probably not even going to be worth the feat.

Neso wrote:

There are plenty of other useless feats. The thought of changing them all is silly.

Since the title of the thread is "Checking Interest", and the number of responces putting in ideas for change show, not all that silly. No harm in a discussion untill it devolves in to chaos, so might as well see if someone brings up any useable and agreeable changes for a feat that is fairly useless as most feats go.

So, in that vein, what about making it more like Called Shot? Giving the option to head but an opponent for a stun, or a cheap shot for a reduction in Dex? Or maybe loose some AC to gain a death attack, leaving yourself open to yur opponents to gain a minor damage increase and a chance to stun. Seems a fair benefit for loosing the rest of your attacks.

I'd have to lean away from setting DC's and make opposed rolls instead, make combat Bluffing a reality, or Taunt, or give Discipline an offensive use.

Just change the bonus damage to Blindness with a 3 or 4 round duration with a rather beefy DC. Sacing all attacks for a round or two of blindness doesn't sound game breaking.

Neso wrote:

There are plenty of other useless feats. The thought of changing them all is silly.

Thing is, I can't find one other feat that is nearly as bad as this. I mean, anyone with half a brain knows this is completely devoid of usefulness once you get 2 attacks per round, unless your attacks do exactly 1, 2, or 3 damage each. Then you wait for three attacks per round.

I also know that there are plenty of other things that should be changed before this, in fact, most of the changes on the list are probably far more needed than this. This isn't a cry that every feat should be made equal or anything, this is to see if anyone else thinks this feat could atleast be made a viable option.

Other broken feats such as Circle Kick, or the skill Parry are still usable without losing something as drastic as every attack except one per round. They are mostly used for RP, and I think something could be added to Dirty Fighting to make it fun both IC'ly and OOC'ly.

Have it do something based on the number of sneak dice you got.

Cant it work just like Knock Down or Disarm, but it blinds vs Disc check? Have the same exactly the same as Knock Down, have it last exactly as long.

Quote:

A character with this feat can attempt to knock his melee opponents to the ground. The character makes an attack roll at -4, and if successful the defender makes an opposed discipline check against the character's attack roll. If the character wins, the defender is knocked to a prone position.

Make it work just like that, though, id think to make it defult as IKD for the size thing, and rather then Knock Down, where you can do nothing at all, give it blind for a round. Basicly to represent throwing dirt in the eyes, or a good old three stooges 'finger in the eye'.

Perhaps concentration check, rather then Disc just to change it up, or some other check. I dont think it would be any more powerful then KD, given you can still fight while blind, and can even take feats to make you fight better while blind.

Xenos wrote:

Cant it work just like Knock Down or Disarm, but it blinds vs Disc check? Have the same exactly the same as Knock Down, have it last exactly as long.

Quote:

A character with this feat can attempt to knock his melee opponents to the ground. The character makes an attack roll at -4, and if successful the defender makes an opposed discipline check against the character's attack roll. If the character wins, the defender is knocked to a prone position.

Make it work just like that, though, id think to make it defult as IKD for the size thing, and rather then Knock Down, where you can do nothing at all, give it blind for a round. Basicly to represent throwing dirt in the eyes, or a good old three stooges 'finger in the eye'.

Perhaps concentration check, rather then Disc just to change it up, or some other check. I dont think it would be any more powerful then KD, given you can still fight while blind, and can even take feats to make you fight better while blind.

Blind is hellaciously good, kthx.

I'll put it to you right now.

No Onhits, No Blinds on a pre-epic feat that can be used once per round (there is no use limitation on it). My Veto is on any of those things.

You know what would make this feat cool. Dwagins suggestion.

or

Removing the sacrificing all other attacks in a round thing. It'll be like a crap version of Power Attack for a bit of extra damage for those characters who can't get the AB to run PA all day.

The former is possible.

The Latter I'm not sure ask Terra.

I'd take dirty fighting and run it all day vs trading 5 AB for power attack. Hell yeah, free damage.

TormakSaber wrote:

I'd take dirty fighting and run it all day vs trading 5 AB for power attack. Hell yeah, free damage.

Its not free it costs a feat and they can't stack so Paladins, Barbs, Rangers, Clerics wouldn't use it anyway.

Its also a die roll so I'm not trading in my all day PA which always does 5 more damage for 1 2 3 4 damage.

Mosh's suggestion is fine. Removing the attack limit, that is. Sneak attacks don't need additional loving.

I like the idea of it being a toned down PA sort of thing. Still put some sort of AB subtraction on it, like -1 or -2 and it'd be less of a free damage feat and more of a medium between PA and no PA. Then again, people who use power attack generally won't need a medium.. *Shrugs.* Could bump the damage up to 1d8 and give it -5 AB. Sort of like the difference between Empower and Maximize spells.

How about make it like a sneak attack but while fighting but give it limited uses per day…perhaps one use per day every ten levels? One use per day and you get a extra sneak attack in the middle of melee.

I'd be willing to bet that can't be done. I could be wrong, however.

Give me blind on hit daggers, then we can educatedly teach people abiout blindess *Nodsnods* considering my rogue already takes people almost twice her level..blindness on hit should not be sold for anything under dc's.. >.>

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

Give me blind on hit daggers, then we can educatedly teach people abiout blindess *Nodsnods* considering my rogue already takes people almost twice her level..blindness on hit should not be sold for anything under dc's.. >.>

Which reminds me of a pair of Kama's with said property. Yay for Monks kama's.

I know!

"Just leave it be", damn it!

Seriously, dont just leave it be. This feat SUCKS! How can you possibly argue against altering it?! - unless of course, that was in relation to something else then I apologise :lol:

Wait a sec - one feat for a free 1d4 extra damage :shock:

All day, every day? That's balanced?

I'd agree with Tormak on this. I'm definitely trading in PA for this. Losing AB is painful. Even on a WM its painful. I want every single swing of that weapon to hit and losing 5AB for a 5 extra damage isnt worth it.

...and no, I dont care if that gets multiplied up to 20/25 damage on some WM. Lossing the chance of that last attack hitting is too much to give up when you consider WM crits.

I gotta admit, I like the random effect idea proposed above by Vaylek. Needs a bit of tweaking but still. It really represents the spontaniety of the whole idea of dirty fighting - the mud in the eyes for example. Classic RP fun. The DCs suggested were a little high but then, forcing 1s is only really viable when your an AA or hitting with an on-hit weapon. If you gave up all other options for one round to do this, it better have a decent DC at least.

What i'd suggest is this:

d10

1-2 - DC 5 + 1/2 Character level + dex mod vs reflex save or blinded for 1d2 rounds.

3-4 - DC 5 + 1/2 Character level + str mod vs fort save or confused for 11d2 rounds.

5-6 - 1d12 damage + reduces move speed as for called shot leg (resisted using concentration or discipline - forgot which)

7-8 - 1d12 damage + reduces AB as per called shot (resisted using concentration or discipline - forgot which)

9-10 - DC 5 + 1/2 Character level + str mod fort save or stunned for 1d2 rounds.

Something along those lines. With character level progression, the DC progresses into epic instead of becoming worthless. I'd be inclined to make the duration a flat one round. That way the feat still has its uses, just less so if your soloing

. If it was possible to make it so that it always took one round to use the feat, would that stop haste allowing you to use it and possibly get some hits off or?

I will take that feat and run it ALL DAY LONG, my god that is so overpowered. 3 amazing onhits and free called shot? Hell yes.

No. No onhits. Veto Veto Veto.

Also major point here its average 2.5 damage. . .hardly even as good as Weapon Spec. . .and it wont give you access to epic weapon spec, cleave, great cleave. I know i wont take it, Called Shot, KD, IKD, Disarm, Imp Disarm, Great Fort, Cleave, Great Cleave. . .are all better.

But sure switch over your PA and lose the free attack from Great Cleave which if it hits generally does. . .22 times the damage that Dirty Fighting will.

But if we make it fair then. . .15 dex requirement.

Wait, I'd lose Cleaves?

nm.

Clarify, I'd be giving up all APR for those. They wouldn't be on-hits at all.

Then it's still terribad and no one takes it.

TormakSaber wrote:

Then it's still terribad and no one takes it.

touché. But at least it'd be an option compared to the suck sauce it is now. I was going for the RP angle flavour while not being totally useless. Course no one will take it. Thanks to the build thread, the vast majority now build cookie cutter characters - not saying that's a good or bad thing, it's just how it is. Those who would take it are doing it for the RP for which my suggestion was intended. Everything is always so focused on a power perspective.

FYI, it'd still be better then a hell of a lot of feats. What's your suggestion oh wise one?

I don't have one, I suppose. ONhits are the main way to express an alternative fighting style's effects but either they're 1 spam, useless, or overpowered for the most part. Honestly all I can think of is making it function like a poor man's sneak attack. You take the feat and get 1d4 "Sneaks". But I'm not even sure if that's doable or if people would take it.

HellScourge wrote:

Really Evil Pigeon wrote:

Give me blind on hit daggers, then we can educatedly teach people abiout blindess *Nodsnods* considering my rogue already takes people almost twice her level..blindness on hit should not be sold for anything under dc's.. >.>

Which reminds me of a pair of Kama's with said property. Yay for Monks kama's.

Daphnia suddenly decides she wants to use kama's instead.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Then it's still terribad and no one takes it.

touché. But at least it'd be an option compared to the suck sauce it is now. I was going for the RP angle flavour while not being totally useless. Course no one will take it. Thanks to the build thread, the vast majority now build cookie cutter characters - not saying that's a good or bad thing, it's just how it is. Those who would take it are doing it for the RP for which my suggestion was intended. Everything is always so focused on a power perspective.

FYI, it'd still be better then a hell of a lot of feats. What's your suggestion oh wise one?

I really don't think 1d4 is all power. If you want it for RP, you take my suggestion from the Blinding speed thread and leave it as is. If you want the RP of being a dirty fighter you obviously take called shot and Improved Knockdown. Nothings dirtier than knocking a fellow over and then stabbing his legs and arms whilst he's down. . .

Theres RP and then theres usefulness. Ideally, there is a mix of both with a normal distribution centred on the 50th centile which should lie on 50%. This is irrespective of whether it applies to feats or classes (see shifter changes - this was skewed way off, making it essentially a RP class.) Anyway, digressing...

Please... greater than 90% of builds in the build thread have 13 int solely for IKD. IKD in my mind is more of a tactial combat manoeuvre. Shame you need a feat to knock someone over if you think about it. Much greater shame that you need 13 intelligence to be good at it but thats just me. I didnt design nwn. Anyway, Dirty Fighting is what the REAL dirty fighters take! Example - see Lion King, end fight between Scar and Simba with the hot ashes in the eyes. Thats dirty fighting!

I just dont see a 1d4 "sneak" representing that very well.

Sorry Blackdragon but I disagree. We are trying to change far too much on amia at the moment. Dev crit, GS, top end mage/cleric spells where is it going to end?

The beauty of amia is that it had reached a ''steady state'' in terms of balance. The build thread emphasizes this by making the top builds available to all. By changing things (read nerfing strong abilities and powering up weaker ones) we just change what is perceived as overpowered. Some choices will always be better than others.

PS I also agree with Moshing. Want to be a 'dirty fighter' use knockdown, called shot, attacking from hiding/behind, want to be a 'speedy dex fighter' don't take blinding speed but epic dodge, dodge, mobility etc or drink haste potions/items with haste and 'roleplay' it being your characters abilty.

At the end of the day many feats, spells, classes, items are 'useless' but that doesn't stop you taking them, using them and roleplaying them.

Mr T

GS and Dev Crit need changing.

This doesn't really.

Why do GS and Dev Crit need changing but dirty fighting doesn't? Is it because you think Dev crit and GS are too strong, but you've never been beaten by someone with dirty fighting so it's fine? I feel consistency is called for, and as few changes as possible need to be made.

PS Selvec there are loads of counters to GS, and Dev crit. PM me and I tell you what they are.

Mr T

I think it's generally agreed by the balance mob that both are OP (although I'd likely need one of said experts to confirm).

I don't need to tell you why in a PM, because the vast majority of complaints and screams of annoyance over the many years since Amia was created about the Feat & Spell speak volumes. They are both, simply, to easily abuseable.

Dirty Fighting doesn't need changing because it has absolutely no application at this present time. The moment it has application and is used, then it will likely need to be fiddeled with and such. But at this time, it's and optional feat that does not get abused and isn't required for balance.

It's, as Mosh pretty much said, an optional feat you can take for RP.

Oh I know how powerful they are..even probably too powerful. However they are being changed because some people couldn't handle being defeated by them. It's a player attitude problem. Get used to it, there is always something out there that can kill you, sometimes even relatively easily. Does that mean we should change everything that can possible defeat you?

As to dirty fighting, it is actually a decent feat at lower levels that allows you to do more damage until you get to two attacks per round. As for 'optional feats' who decides that? You? the balance team? Do we only care about feats that are used alot? (It which case why spoil the fun of those that use Timestop, Dev Crit, GS just because you can't counter it.

PS Dirty fighting has no application as is optional or ''roleplay'' only because it's subpar.

Mr T

Dirty fighting checking interest

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