AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Just noticed Epic Mage Armor is Necromancy...

Last edited by Warhaven on Tue, Feb 23 2010, 5:42 AM, edited 1 time in total.

What... the... $!#@?

It's bad enough Bioware puts Blindness/Deafness and Mass Blindness/Deafness in different schools, but seriously, necromancy? I'd like someone to explain this one to me, please. My head is about to explode.

On second thought, maybe that's why it's necromancy. People see the school and their heads explode...

It's a feat for a spell with no save, therefore the school doesn't matter.

Yep. And more than likely, IC research would/should lead you to find it of the Abjuration spell school, if any.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's a feat for a spell with no save, therefore the school doesn't matter.

Mechanically, yeah, doesn't matter, but I'm completely baffled at Bioware's logic. It's like they put all the schools on a dartboard and had a monkey throw thumbtacks at it.

Power Word Kill
*thunk* "Whoops, missed enchantment. Oh well, leave it divination."

Blindness/Deafness
*thunk* "Enchantment again, Bob!"
"Uh, it's supposed to be Necromancy, Jim."
"The darts don't lie, Bob!"

Mass Blindness/Deafness
*thunk* "Illusion, perfect!"
"Jim, not only is Blindness/Deafness supposed to be necromancy, your last dart landed on enchantment."
"Bob, would you please stop with the nitpicking?"

Balagarn's Iron Horn
*thunk* "Transmutation!"
"Hey, you got one right, Jim!"
*whispers to the programmer* "I know it says transmutation, but here's a $20. Change it to enchantment, but let Bob think it's still transmutation!"

Burning Hands
"Okay, I know for a fact this one's evocation, Jim. It's a bloody fire spell."
*thunk* "Wrong again, Bob! It's now transmutation!"
"But... but it doesn't transmute anything!"
"Bob, you're doing it again."
"WHAT?!"
"Nitpicking."

Dark Immolation wrote:

Yep. And more than likely, IC research would/should lead you to find it of the Abjuration spell school, if any.

Oddly enough, it'd probably be conjuration, since Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor both conjuration.

Bah. I always though Mage Armor's reasoning for being Conjuration was loopy anyway. You're not really "summoning" a substance or anything. Maybe you're conjuring "force", but wouldn't that just be Evocation like Magic Missle then?

I'd just as well go by the name and what it does. Invisible armor/shielding force that deflects and protects against blows? Meh, sounds like Abjuration to me. *shrug*

Mage Armor is Conjuration [creation] subschool in PnP, while shield, the exact same spell except +4 shield AC instead of +4 armor AC is Abjuration in PnP. Go figure.

Warhaven wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

It's a feat for a spell with no save, therefore the school doesn't matter.

Mechanically, yeah, doesn't matter, but I'm completely baffled at Bioware's logic. It's like they put all the schools on a dartboard and had a monkey throw thumbtacks at it.

Power Word Kill
*thunk* "Whoops, missed enchantment. Oh well, leave it divination."

Blindness/Deafness
*thunk* "Enchantment again, Bob!"
"Uh, it's supposed to be Necromancy, Jim."
"The darts don't lie, Bob!"

Mass Blindness/Deafness
*thunk* "Illusion, perfect!"
"Jim, not only is Blindness/Deafness supposed to be necromancy, your last dart landed on enchantment."
"Bob, would you please stop with the nitpicking?"

Balagarn's Iron Horn
*thunk* "Transmutation!"
"Hey, you got one right, Jim!"
*whispers to the programmer* "I know it says transmutation, but here's a $20. Change it to enchantment, but let Bob think it's still transmutation!"

Burning Hands
"Okay, I know for a fact this one's evocation, Jim. It's a bloody fire spell."
*thunk* "Wrong again, Bob! It's now transmutation!"
"But... but it doesn't transmute anything!"
"Bob, you're doing it again."
"WHAT?!"
"Nitpicking."

Toasted in Epic Roast!

Well, I don't see why there would necessarily be a "school" for epic spells. They transcend the definitions of arcane and divine, and are available to you by virtue of your intimate understanding of the Weave. Schools are IC concepts, not metaphysical forces. Mages (and maybe the Weave) use them to categorize spells for study and such. There's no reason to suppose it's the only way to categorize spells. This is touched upon in some book on magic.

IronAngel wrote:

Well, I don't see why there would necessarily be a "school" for epic spells. They transcend the definitions of arcane and divine, and are available to you by virtue of your intimate understanding of the Weave. Schools are IC concepts, not metaphysical forces. Mages (and maybe the Weave) use them to categorize spells for study and such. There's no reason to suppose it's the only way to categorize spells. This is touched upon in some book on magic.

The Epic Level Handbook says that they do have schools.

Spells.2da is a serverside 2da which means changes can happen to spells.2da without the client having to have a copy of it.

Which means most everything about spells can be changed without much effort. Cannot add new player-spells without haks though. NWN might have its flaws when it comes to schools but nwn have like what? 5% of all pnp spells?

Terra_777 wrote:

Spells.2da is a serverside 2da which means changes can happen to spells.2da without the client having to have a copy of it.

Which means most everything about spells can be changed without much effort. Cannot add new player-spells without haks though. NWN might have its flaws when it comes to schools but nwn have like what? 5% of all pnp spells?

*cough* Necromancy buff for caster level nerf... *cough*

Yurell wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

Well, I don't see why there would necessarily be a "school" for epic spells. They transcend the definitions of arcane and divine, and are available to you by virtue of your intimate understanding of the Weave. Schools are IC concepts, not metaphysical forces. Mages (and maybe the Weave) use them to categorize spells for study and such. There's no reason to suppose it's the only way to categorize spells. This is touched upon in some book on magic.

The Epic Level Handbook says that they do have schools.

That's irrelevant to the point I'm making, however. That they have schools is contingent, whereas I said it is not necessary. WotC happened to think they should be put into schools. There are no incriminating IC implications to simply assuming mages don't put them into schools, however. It's an academic distinction made for learning purposes, and I personally doubt practiging Mage Armor and other spells of the same school long enough makes it any easier to device an Epic Mage Armor spell. That's because clerics and druids get the same epic spells wizards do, and they certainly don't research their other spells.

IronAngel wrote:

Yurell wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

Well, I don't see why there would necessarily be a "school" for epic spells. They transcend the definitions of arcane and divine, and are available to you by virtue of your intimate understanding of the Weave. Schools are IC concepts, not metaphysical forces. Mages (and maybe the Weave) use them to categorize spells for study and such. There's no reason to suppose it's the only way to categorize spells. This is touched upon in some book on magic.

The Epic Level Handbook says that they do have schools.

That's irrelevant to the point I'm making, however. That they have schools is contingent, whereas I said it is not necessary. WotC happened to think they should be put into schools. There are no incriminating IC implications to simply assuming mages don't put them into schools, however. It's an academic distinction made for learning purposes, and I personally doubt practiging Mage Armor and other spells of the same school long enough makes it any easier to device an Epic Mage Armor spell. That's because clerics and druids get the same epic spells wizards do, and they certainly don't research their other spells.

It's not an academic device because there are feat that enhance and detract from various schools.

Regarding the school of Epic Spells:

d20SRD/ELH wrote:

Determining School

When combining two or more seeds to develop an epic spell, the school of the finished spell is decided by the caster from among the seeds that make up the epic spell.

Epic spells are made from Seeds and all Seeds are associated with a school. When the caster finishes creating his spell he selects a school for the spell based on the Seeds he used. The "pre made" epic spells are already researched and have thus already been assigned to a school by the creators of the spell, so anyone else following their research has the spell "slotted into" the same school. Unqiuely created epic spells can be assigned to any school as long as that school has an associated Seed being used in the creation of the epic Spell.

Yeah. It's a bit confusing, because Complete Mage states that the schools are just a successful way of explaining magic, and don't have any inherent rules. They may be structured similarly, and "characters who grasp the concept of spell schools maintain a way of thinking about magic that helps them achieve the proper frame of mind for working arcane spells."

In this light, I would interpret the feats as a knowledge of similar types of spells: Spell Focus or Arcane Defense simply means you've studied pretty much every standard (type of) spell in the school and know how to deal with them individually.

But I do agree this doesn't seem to be the original idea. Some designers have clearly thought there's some school split inherent in the Weave or the nature of magic in general. I do like the Complete Mage take better, though.

I like my personal take on it better than both sources, but only by virtue of the fact that it is. :wink:

Comp Mage's works. In the end we have o accept that there are schools though, if only for classification and feats.

Anyone who plays a mage of alignment that'd reasonably be able to function at the Mystran Monolith, come on down and presuming we can get through pesky things like wars with the Cabal, we have the environment for IC debate and talk about such things!

That said.. I imagine it was more a placeholder.. but they still oughta have been careful. (Can a specialist Wizard opposed to Necromancy still take the Epic Mage Armour Feat?)

Quote:

(Can a specialist Wizard opposed to Necromancy still take the Epic Mage Armour Feat?)

In NWN? Yeah.

(afaik.)

Just wanna be sure is all.

Would be curious to find out someday.. ((Maybe when I get back from workout if nothin's going I'll load my trainer module make a quick Epic Wizzie for that purpose))

Sundyr actually had a very lively debate with a student and Yossarin on the idea of categorizing Epic Spells into Schools. Turned an hour long Evocation class into a two and a half hour debate. If anyone wants to talk about such things icly, we're more than happy to accomodate!

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

(Can a specialist Wizard opposed to Necromancy still take the Epic Mage Armour Feat?)

In NWN? Yeah.

(afaik.)

Epic spells are feats linked to a spell. So yes, it is not affected by school specialisation.

davis114 wrote:

Sundyr actually had a very lively debate with a student and Yossarin on the idea of categorizing Epic Spells into Schools. Turned an hour long Evocation class into a two and a half hour debate. If anyone wants to talk about such things icly, we're more than happy to accomodate!

It was way cooler as an IC discussion IG as opposed to an OOC discussion on the forums.

side question, can clerics and such 'create' epic spells as wizards and their like?

Zanthair wrote:

side question, can clerics and such 'create' epic spells as wizards and their like?

Yes.

Yossarin wrote:

davis114 wrote:

Sundyr actually had a very lively debate with a student and Yossarin on the idea of categorizing Epic Spells into Schools. Turned an hour long Evocation class into a two and a half hour debate. If anyone wants to talk about such things icly, we're more than happy to accomodate!

It was way cooler as an IC discussion IG as opposed to an OOC discussion on the forums.

I have to actually agree, even playing a .. 'Kettlehead' as Bryce would've called him who watched, it was still quite cool.

More IC in game discussions of these things plz!!!

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

(Can a specialist Wizard opposed to Necromancy still take the Epic Mage Armour Feat?)

In NWN? Yeah.

(afaik.)

Not by default, though. I mean, NwN doesn't give you the option to take Necromancy as opposing school during specialist selection.

Has the PnP rules for selecting an opposing school been scripted into Amia? Would be much nicer. Or, could a DM tink one of my characters with a magic wand and change his opposing school to something other than the default? I wanted to build a specialist that opposed necromancy.

It's hardcoded, afaik. No haks either.

It would be nice, and make more sense seeing as there's no specific any one spell school "opposes" the other in the mechanical sense. The actual explanation is that a specialist just neglects one(or two) whole schools of spells in his focusing on one. But...

If such an option was made possible(if it even could), people could choose the schools and therefore spells they could neglect for an extra slot pet level. And while that's really a sucky trade off IMO, it involves tinkering with mages... so likely won't happen given current trends. Good idea though.

TormakSaber wrote:

Zanthair wrote:

side question, can clerics and such 'create' epic spells as wizards and their like?

Yes.

Has this been done in Amia? I mean, have characters researched their own epics? That'd be one hell of an RP quest. I wonder what the DC cost of such an item would be...

Yes, it has. The cost is whatever we decide it to be (x). If it requires scripting, Disco does the scripting and adds an amount (y) to the value based upon the work he put in: (x + y).

Note that there is also often an XP cost attached to this, as well. Quite possibly a gold or materials expense as well. There may be all kinds of sacrifices that are necessary to make for such a request beyond mere DCs (though they will never supplant/replace/reduce the need for DCs in the first place).

Does this mean that you could make an epic spell that costs you 10,000 XP, 30 DCs, 2 +5 pieces of loot and 5 million gold, while another person just pays 15 DCs and has their epic spell?

Yes, indeed. It depends entirely upon our judgment of the value of the spell and the roleplay necessary to attain it.

And of course on the specific spell.

Just noticed Epic Mage Armor is Necromancy...

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