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Re: Paladin and Blackguard Saves
https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43428		 Page 1 of 9
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 8:50 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Paladin and Blackguard Saves
We're changing them so you get +1 saves per charisma mod, up to a max of your paladin (or blackguard) level.

This means that, say, a level 3 paladin with 40 charisma gets +3 saves. But at level 15 Paladin, he has a +15 mod and gets his entire charisma modifier to his saves.

Have a nice day!

EDIT: Yes, Terra, I see you in here, it means we will be asking you to do it probably. :D
Author:  belgianbonzai [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 9:12 AM ]
Post subject: 
if this is possible; why not do same with monk ac (and drop it back to lvl1 monk while you're at it)?

other then that: long overdue change
but i think it's general knowledge i think that :)
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 9:16 AM ]
Post subject: 
I won't lie, doing the same to monk AC was discussed, and may happen as well.
Author:  Terra_777 [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 9:34 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Paladin and Blackguard Saves
TormakSaber wrote:
EDIT: Yes, Terra, I see you in here, it means we will be asking you to do it probably. :D


:( Lurk in plain sight doesnt work. Only way I can think about doing this without molesting nwserver.exe with a rusty chainsaw is with effects. Yummy. 8)
Author:  Yurell [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 9:40 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Paladin and Blackguard Saves
TormakSaber wrote:
We're changing them so you get +1 saves per charisma mod, up to a max of your paladin (or blackguard) level.

This means that, say, a level 3 paladin with 40 charisma gets +3 saves. But at level 15 Paladin, he has a +15 mod and gets his entire charisma modifier to his saves.

Have a nice day!

EDIT: Yes, Terra, I see you in here, it means we will be asking you to do it probably. :D


Thank you! Thankyouthankyouthankyou!

I've wanted this for ages! I think I even proposed it once ...
Author:  Swallow the Stars [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 9:43 AM ]
Post subject: 
Wow. That's pretty dramatic. This will, however, help cut down on paladin/BG being used solely as saves boosters with some proficiencis tossed on.
Author:  BrainSplitter [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 9:49 AM ]
Post subject: 
Goodbyyyyye Sorc/(Pal/BG)s!
Author:  Genar_Detkasa [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 9:49 AM ]
Post subject: 
Excellent and fantastic and a number of other similiar positive adjectives as well! You have my complete support in applying this to Monks' AC too!
Author:  Dakotaen [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 9:52 AM ]
Post subject: 
That a boy(s) and girl(s)!
Author:  Silvarus [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 10:16 AM ]
Post subject: 
Even more reason to rebuild. :)
Author:  Mr Mago [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 10:27 AM ]
Post subject: 
Wow.

I was just thinking about this yesterday before I went to sleep, contemplating if I should make a topic with the very same suggestion as the actual changes now being made.
Author:  Torzeng [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 10:52 AM ]
Post subject: 
Oooh.

Will be interesting to see if done to monks AC too.

*Looks over stats* Whew... cha mod sucked already >.>
Author:  HellScourge [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 11:07 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Paladin and Blackguard Saves
Yurell wrote:
Thank you! Thankyouthankyouthankyou!


Yurell already said it all.
Author:  hendrack [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 11:08 AM ]
Post subject: 
Good change. Was the free rebuild stuff made for future changes like this, so ppl rant less? :)
Author:  Vaylek [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 11:41 AM ]
Post subject: 
Nice change, good common sense there :)

Do it with monks as well.
Author:  Nekhy [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 11:49 AM ]
Post subject: 
hendrack wrote:
Good change. Was the free rebuild stuff made for future changes like this, so ppl rant less? :)


It wasn't really made with the intention of introducing radical changes, but enabling these big changes is surely a positive consequence, that we'll probably take full advantage of.
Author:  Yurell [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 11:51 AM ]
Post subject: 
Vaylek wrote:
Nice change, good common sense there :)

Do it with monks as well.


Would certainly make me rebuild Jhae.
Author:  Craig deathwalker [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 12:18 PM ]
Post subject: 
Anymore changes coming to BG's before I take my rebuild? This screws over the BG's more than pals but ah well
Author:  Jas [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 12:45 PM ]
Post subject: 
I actually think this change is more effective then the current monk's one (of bumping up the requirement level).

that said, its a good change for balance.
Author:  maglorine [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 13:05 PM ]
Post subject: 
Big yay from me.
Author:  Swallow the Stars [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 16:14 PM ]
Post subject: 
Craig deathwalker wrote:
Anymore changes coming to BG's before I take my rebuild? This screws over the BG's more than pals but ah well


Not really. People tend to make Paladins that have heftier amounts of levels more often than they make 2/3/4 level of Blackguard builds. I know - I have about 7 of them. This simply makes people who want to be Blackguards and get the true benefits of the class - wait, could it be possible? - commit to the class.
Author:  oshizo2 [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 16:58 PM ]
Post subject: 
well i can stop levleling my bard/bg then and go back to my duergar/bg.. thanks.
Author:  Craig deathwalker [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 18:00 PM ]
Post subject: 
Champion of Helm wrote:
Craig deathwalker wrote:
Anymore changes coming to BG's before I take my rebuild? This screws over the BG's more than pals but ah well


Not really. People tend to make Paladins that have heftier amounts of levels more often than they make 2/3/4 level of Blackguard builds. I know - I have about 7 of them. This simply makes people who want to be Blackguards and get the true benefits of the class - wait, could it be possible? - commit to the class.



A BG needs to invest a feat and skill points before it can even be taken, even then the BG is strongly disadvantaged to what the paladin can do.

Of course paladin tanks are going to have more levels, after all as a main class its far easier to take the advantages.

As far as blackgaurd tanks come its down to a few options of possible levels for a worthwhile build, even less if your making a dex version.
Author:  Grymia [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 18:00 PM ]
Post subject: 
Considering the one planned Paladin I might make in the future would more likely then not be dedicated Paladin.. :)

No problems here folks! :)
Author:  BloodNAshes [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 18:45 PM ]
Post subject: 
Thank the gods for this.
Author:  Charles1810 [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 18:55 PM ]
Post subject: 
I want to thank anyone that was involved am so happy for this change fix!!!!!!!
Author:  SacredOak [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 19:04 PM ]
Post subject: 
Fantastic decision! Very happy to hear about it!
Author:  Dwagin [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 19:21 PM ]
Post subject: 
I give this two claws up.
Author:  Lutra [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 19:21 PM ]
Post subject: 
*evil grin*
Author:  hendrack [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 19:23 PM ]
Post subject: 
Do the same with UMD and rogue/bard.
Author:  Swallow the Stars [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 20:02 PM ]
Post subject: 
hendrack wrote:
Do the same with UMD and rogue/bard.


Not the same thing.
Author:  hendrack [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 20:22 PM ]
Post subject: 
Well, either this change is to nerf pally/bg powerbuilds or the beginning of a crusade against skill dumps. I say do something similiar with umd/tumble as well.
Author:  BlackDahlya [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 20:57 PM ]
Post subject: 
hendrack wrote:
Well, either this change is to nerf pally/bg powerbuilds or the beginning of a crusade against skill dumps. I say do something similiar with umd/tumble as well.


It would be great if this could happen.
Author:  Silvarus [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 21:26 PM ]
Post subject: 
Let us not get too anal. Having to think of new builds for 1palas is enough work. :)
Author:  Lesquille [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 21:36 PM ]
Post subject: 
This isn't Congress; let's not tack a UMD/Tumble nerf amendment onto this Pally/BG saves bill.
Author:  Charles1810 [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 21:50 PM ]
Post subject: 
Pretty sure this is geared towards just preventing the people taking only 1level Pal or whatever level BG just for the saves. aka 29sorc/1pal builds
Author:  ainjyll [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 21:54 PM ]
Post subject: 
hendrack wrote:
Well, either this change is to nerf pally/bg powerbuilds or the beginning of a crusade against skill dumps. I say do something similiar with umd/tumble as well.


It's to nerf the ridiculous 29 whatever/1 pally or bg equivalent builds. It's got nothing to do with skill dumps. It nerfs the ability for someone to be able to take one level in a class and get an instant +10 or whatever to there saves.
Author:  Mimiron_Old [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 22:00 PM ]
Post subject: 
While we're at it, can we change dev crit to not be able to kill people who have a certain # over the save?
Author:  hendrack [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 22:00 PM ]
Post subject: 
You take 1 level in a class and get 6 AC and the ability to use almost every item in the module. Hookay, my bad.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 22:06 PM ]
Post subject: 
hendrack wrote:
You take 1 level in a class and get 6 AC and the ability to use almost every item in the module. Hookay, my bad.


Considering that you can take just 1 rank in UMD and then just tack on skill bonuses to your gear up to X, restricting it by level really wouldn't do much good. Actually, no good. And if your answer is to nerf it where even with items, you can't get a UMD score over your level, well that means a pure rogue will never have a UMD over his level... screwing him over as well, until he reaches lv 15 or so. There's really no way to "fix" UMD like that.

Mimiron wrote:
While we're at it, can we change dev crit to not be able to kill people who have a certain # over the save?


Yeah, we already have that. It's called more fortitude. :wink: The only time it doesn't work is on a 1.
Author:  hendrack [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 22:14 PM ]
Post subject: 
I am throwing the general idea into the crowd, hence I wrote something similiar. I leave the details to the devs.
Author:  Mimiron_Old [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 22:15 PM ]
Post subject: 
That's exactly what I mean. 1's are retarded when your fortitude is 10 higher than the DC.
Author:  ainjyll [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 22:19 PM ]
Post subject: 
hendrack wrote:
You take 1 level in a class and get 6 AC and the ability to use almost every item in the module. Hookay, my bad.


Sure, you can. However, let's use an example here. Let's say it's a simple Fighter/Pally/Rogue build. So, using this example, you're going to want to have good STR for a decent AB and damage. You're not going to want your CON to be too low so you can take a hit and keep going. Your CHA is going to need to be decent to get a bonus to your saves. This doesn't really leave too many stat points to throw around. So you can't put any extra points into INT to beef up your skill points per level without one of your other attributes taking a blow to the whole idea of the build. Therefore, to dump into Tumble and UMD when you take rogue levels, you have to not put skill points into other places where they may be needed. Discipline (for IKD) and Concentration (for Taunt) being two examples that would come into play for this build.

So, by dumping into Tumble and UMD, you gain AC and the ability to use a few handfuls of items that will be beneficial, but you lose the ability to resist a KD or a Taunt. So, it's a trade off. Some people like it, some don't.

I don't really see a need to nerf it, seeing as how they're losing other needed skills to dump into UMD and Tumble.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 22:23 PM ]
Post subject: 
There are no current plans to tweak skill dumps.

Devastating Critical got a mention. No current plans.

The only forseeable change to Use Magic Device is the server swtch that would require X mod to cast from a scroll, with that whole calculated DC.

Quote:
While we're at it, can we change dev crit to not be able to kill people who have a certain # over the save?


This isn't possible, the most you can do is flip the server switch that turns off autofailing on a one. But if you do this there are several characters that can simply become immune to spells, and it makes saveless spells even more important than they already are. The catastrophic one and the sacred 20 are cornerstones of DnD in saves, and I don't think we'll remove that.
Author:  Swallow the Stars [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 22:49 PM ]
Post subject: 
Skill dumps usually don't come from Roleplay-dedicated classes (ie, Rogue, Bard, Fighter). Save whoring with Paladin/Blackguard does. A person isn't a "little bit of a Paladin" or a "little bit of a Blackguard". They are all or nothing. Fighter and Rogue and Bard are not the same notion.

As well, a person is utterly able to train for a period of time in a specialty not their own an pick up on valuable tips and talents. Example: Mixed Martial Arts (Sure you're a great striker, but let's teach you some Brazilian Jujitsu so you have ground game as well). Just because you're a boxer doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to learn to wrestle as well, especially if there are no character implications tacked on to wrestling.
Author:  Mimiron_Old [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 23:05 PM ]
Post subject: 
So why are we changing blackguards and paladins again?

What's next up, making rapiers and scimitars have a modified crit range?

Does someone just wake up, complain about something and then cry until they change it?
Author:  Selmak [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 23:11 PM ]
Post subject: 
It's so that the classes aren't so godawfully front-loaded that you can get all the goodies with just a few levels.
Author:  ainjyll [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 23:13 PM ]
Post subject: 
Mimiron wrote:
So why are we changing blackguards and paladins again?

What's next up, making rapiers and scimitars have a modified crit range?

Does someone just wake up, complain about something and then cry until they change it?


I don't think there was anyone crying about this change. I can't remember it being discussed in depth on the public forums any time recently.

This seems to be a decision made by the DM's and I'm sure there was much discussion about it before any conclusion was reached. It's a conclusion that I'm all for, by the way. It'll help counteract the cheese builds that are so abhorrent as to be almost sacrilegious. You know, the builds that make people like Uberuce and Mago cry tears of blood while they sit in the corner of their rooms with the lights out and the Cure blaring on the stereo.
Author:  BloodNAshes [ Sun, Dec 06 2009, 23:25 PM ]
Post subject: 
The UMD switch definitely needs flicking on. Skill-dumping in it is alright, but it's ridiculous you only need to put 5 ranks or so in a skill to get maximum effectiveness from it.

As for tumble, no real way to fix that anyway I can see, unless you want to do something weird like: Max AC from tumble equals 1 + 1 per 5 levels in a tumble class; so a 10 monk with 20 tumble could only have max 3 AC from it or a rogue 19/bard 1 could with 25 tumble could have max 4 AC from it. I don't really think that's a good idea though.

As for monk Wis bonus, I don't really think that's in the same league with pally saves, because it only works if you're not wearing armor or using a shield. That means you'll need a Wis bonus over 14-16 or so to really make it worthwhile (unless you're playing a class that hurts to wear armor I suppose, like a wizard), especially since it's now been changed since it doesn't carry over to shifted forms. I wouldn't really be opposed to it though, since monks aren't really supposed to be multi-classing a lot according to lore.

EDIT: Make that more like 8-9 Wis bonus, forgot about Dex there, but the point still stands (mostly).
Author:  TormakSaber [ Mon, Dec 07 2009, 0:33 AM ]
Post subject: 
Mimiron wrote:
So why are we changing blackguards and paladins again?

What's next up, making rapiers and scimitars have a modified crit range?

Does someone just wake up, complain about something and then cry until they change it?


2 levels (or ONE for Paladin0 = +15 saves?

Yeah that's balanced.

The fact that you play a Sorc/BG/rogue is duly noted and taken into account. ;)
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