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What do you think about RPing killing someone?
Character can be very powerfull but if his throat is naked and there is someone hidden behind him than the sneaky one could easily cut his throat and thus send him to the afterlife.

You may cast hellball but it will not protect your neck from dagger.

Discuss

Even the strongest character can be taken unawares. Poisons do exist that can kill people permently. Everyone must sleep, and some do not sleep in armor all the time. Death can some swiftly to any via a blade to the throat.

However, on Amia it's quite different. These methods of death do not exist without special permission from the player of the character you wish to kill. You do not have the right to perm kill a character, ever. In the most when you PvP someone, you knock them out. Unless you have permission from the opposing player to perm kill the character, you cannot kill someone.

Dead wrote:

What do you think about RPing killing someone?
Character can be very powerfull but if his throat is naked and there is someone hidden behind him than the sneaky one could easily cut his throat and thus send him to the afterlife.

You may cast hellball but it will not protect your neck from dagger.

Discuss

If you're the person who's being killed: Try to take into consideration that, if you haven't been informed, the player was most likely trying to avoid you knowing OoCly and having your actions changed.

If you're the assassin and you're killing someone: I've heard quite a few times before in the threads that have the same topic as this that you have to follow the PvP rules, even if it will 'mess up' the future roleplay. So: Try to be polite and considerate to your future victim, and remember to tell them and follow the PvP rules.

But, being my studied opinion, my words mean little in the face of the DM team.

Fine with me, if it's RPed well. Not if it's godgamed or just plain stupid. There are many factors to take into account here - such as the fact that a plain dagger simply won't pierce barbarian skin, for instance. And that before you can get a dagger at the right angle to strike past magical clothing, armor, armor-like skin (remember that "Natural Armor" means you're magically tough all over), an experienced warrior is likely to catch you.

Well, I reckon the other person has to consent to it. Its the sort of thing you might do in an RP'd scene where both characters are emoting a lot, or both players have a common/agreed goal in mind for the scene's progression.

Not the sort of thing to use on just anybody, they would either complain or just ignore you if you emoted that.

And I'd disagree that a knife across the throat would always kill on Amia. Remember its a fantasy world... lots of things dont make sense in a real world sense... eg. getting critically hit by a greataxe or a freaking 50 foot dragon, how could anyone survive that by our logic? Well it happens here *shrug*

Remember that everyone carries healing, generally. A slit across the throat is just a wound.

Most armor also comes with some sort of collar or otherwise stiff thing blocking someone's neck just for this reason.

I imagine, also, RDDs would be hard to manage, since they're covered in scales. What happens if you slit a PM's throat, though? They just bleed a little and frown at the 2 damage that just took?

In PnP the rulebook says "A dagger to the eye is a dagger to the eye" ... but here, my advice is just to RP it. In combat you have HP. In RP it's the player's choice. I'd always go for the fun 'realism' over the HP in RP.

IronAngel wrote:

such as the fact that a plain dagger simply won't pierce barbarian skin, for instance.

It would if the person stabbing had like... 26 base strength and dev-crit with dagger right?

Uh... ha-ha, you took no damage but still died to dev crit!

Though thats more a engine screw up, no?

*Shudders* Dev-Critting small weapons. Such a stupid stupid idea.

Last edited by Dead on Sat, Oct 17 2009, 13:16 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I agree that some players have armor skin, some are pale masters, some are tough but EVERY character, every creature has it's Achilles Heel.

I disagree that slitting someones throat is just a wound. If the cut is good it kills instantly.

I was only giving an example by talking about throat cutting. A knife in the ear should do good also.

Like IronAngel said as long as it is RPed good it is alright. For example you cut someones throat but you don't know about him being a palemaster. Here are some examples.

However I think that is it alright to warn the character before doing something like that. It will be a good thing to RP. Paranoia for example. If you tell the character that he or she is going to be assassinated in a next few days he will be RPing the paranoia. But if someone gives you the contract than perhaps DM should be noted about it?

Here are some simple examples of different characters in the same situation.

Shadowdancer: *Sneaky suddenlly appears behind PM and cuts his throat in a swift move*
Palemaster: *widens his eyes as he feels the cold touch of the steel cuting his throat and than looks behind him and chuckles* You cannot kill me that way fool.

or

Shadowdancer: *Sneaky suddenlly appears behind RDD and cuts his throat in a swift move*
RDD: *feels something scratching his dragon-skin and look behind him* You will have to get a bigger weapon for someone like me.

or

Shadowdancer: *Sneaky suddenlly appears behind FT and cuts his throat in a swift move*
Human, fighter: *tries to gasp for air and falls on the ground drowning in his own blood*

What missy said above.

If you're gonna be trying to assassinate someone, it's like what was said: Not retarded and not God gaming. Yet, then again, how many here actually even flow with assassination RP and get killed before someone walks in with a suitcase filled with raise dead scrolls then raise you for a laugh?

I don't really see how you could assassinate people these days with doors that can only be opened by specific keys and no one actually sleeps outside(with the exception of the Grove but they're guarded by silly clown golems) so meh.

Heal potions FTW! Kicked in the balls, lectured by the wife and have a splitting headache, that's all you need! A silly cut with a +5 weapon isn't gonna stop you. Then again, there's specific part in the pelvis that when stabbed you can die if not healed quickly enough, I read that out of a fantasy book somewhere.

Poison. Fort saves people! Fort saves!! The DC's on most poisons these days are pathetic so nah, no point to them.(Unless you're playing Baldur's Gate!) Unless a spooky DM comes along with a new poison. *Sneaky eyes.*

BUT! I love the whole assassination idea since people these days keep dumping crapload of skill points into 'Spot' which is entirely useless when sleeping.

If you want assassinations, I'd suggest playing Assassin's Creed or... I dunno, boobs.

You assassinate someone by organising it before hand with a DM. As a DM can get you past the faction locks.

Eh, it's kinda in the air. Your shadowdancer example shouldn't happen. That's a sneak attack. If you attack someone from behind, then use the engine, to give them the chance to dodge fairly. Certainly, they might be flat-footed, but that shouldn't grant you the right to kill them in one hit.

However, in situations where someone is completely defenseless... Let's say either Bigbies, Hold, or Sleep, then I think it is fair to slit someone's throat in a fatal move. Coupe De Grace is screwed up on NWN, but if the weapon is enough to bypass the natural resistances, then I don't see a problem with it.

It depends on how it flows I guess on killing people from behind, just ask permission in tells but I guess that kinda kills the whole 'assassination' idea.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

*Shudders* Dev-Critting small weapons. Such a stupid stupid idea.

You need to read Snow Crash.

And yeah, there's arteries? (I always get them mixed up) in the thighs that once cut, will apparently drop all of your blood out, more or less. I'm not sure how true this is.

A slit to the throat wouldn't be an "instant" kill unless you cut them all the way to the spinal cord. They still have to suffocate/bleed out, and I'm sure a fighter would have some experience with that, if they get stabbed often enough. I suppose if someone's asleep or tied up, though, they're a free kill. Technically, RPwise. Mechanics wise you still have to hit them ten or eleven times.

I'd definitely like to see some sort of agreement between players though, because having someone walk up behind you and say "You're dead, hah." bugs me.

You don't really need to ask permission or consent to try it, but:

Emoting *Slits throat* is godgaming. You should always phrase it as *Attemps to slit throat*, preferrably with more detail I suppose. If you do it well, I'm sure many players will consent to it. What's cooler than being assassinated? I would be happy to play along with someone's great plan. However, if someone walked up to my PC and "slit my throat" or "stabbed me in the back" or whatever, I'd probably get pissed and tell them to use the game engine for that. It's all about how you approach me: come with humility, not afraid of failure, doing your best in a fair manner, and I'm likely to play along. Come godgaming, emoting your surprise attacks without chance to respond, and assuming success, and I'll beat your ass in PvP or die trying.

Marauth wrote:

Eh, it's kinda in the air. Your shadowdancer example shouldn't happen. That's a sneak attack. If you attack someone from behind, then use the engine, to give them the chance to dodge fairly.

That is killing the whole concept of assassin. Assassins are not fair. They are going to follow you and kill you when you are already tired and helpless.

For example they will follow you while you are hunting and than when you rest...SNAP. Or when you are badly wounded...SNAP.

that is the idea of assassin.

@IronAngel

Yeah I guess that you are right but that should work only for things like armor-skin, dragon-skin, palemaster etc.

No dex roll, dodge or other allowed. If you are not aware, than you are not aware. Once you are aware you are already dead or not.

On my part, if I was subjected to something as stupid as *Walks up and stabs Valygar in the back, killing him instantly*, I'd just retort with *But Valygar, being the experienced hunter he is, sensed the blatantly obvious sneak up long before X got close, and with a fluid motion, he spinned aroudn and drove his dual blades through the assassins lungs before the poorly planned attempt against him could be executed*

On the other hand, if something like this happened, I would happily play along: *Walking towards Valygar with pleading eyes, the beggar extended his hand "Have a coin friend?", and as Valygar turned to his purse to find some gold to help the poor beggar, the beggar who infact is a disguised assassin, draws a hidden blade and stabs Valygar in the heart*

I have nothing against my char loosing or being killed, but i demand it to be done in a proper way with convincing RP.

And that's why the truly paranoid keep their backs to the wall, their eyes to the exits, and their necks protected.

You don't get to be worth assassinating and alive without being careful, after all.

And that's why a true guild of assassins will have their members be: The man who greets you at the door, the man that takes you to your table, the man who takes your order, the woman who cooks it, and the man who collects your body when the poison takes effect.

Dangit, now I want to pull together a guild of false-facers and assassins. Blagh.

While looking over this topic a second time, I had a thought concerning telling the player that you would assassinate them. Get someone else to do it.
Sounds a little difficult to get someone who seems to be friendly enough with the player to tell them, but I think it would work rather well if it worked.

"Assassin's Selected Message Courier: A player wants to kill you, and she/he'd like you to know just so you don't get too pissed off when he/she assassinates you.
Assassin's Victim: What's his/her name?
Assassin's Courier: Not telling, that's up to you to figure out - just an OoC warning."
It would give both the player a heads up that he might be assassinated in the near future and the ambiguity of the Assassin to continue stalking their prey without them knowing who it actually was. Sure, they'd become a little parinoid both IC and OoC, but it might be an alright idea. Also, there's the point raised that one should poke a DM about it beforehand anyway.

The Silent Whisper wrote:

Assassin's Victim: What's his/her name?
Assassin's Courier: Not telling, that's up to you to figure out - just an OoC warning."

Even better. But for the sake of RP that person shuld not tell it under any condition.

Falling Spider wrote:

.

Dangit, now I want to pull together a guild of false-facers and assassins. Blagh.

join da church of cyric

If you get a Hit on someone , let a DM know. That way not only can the DM give them the heads up, letting them know sometime within the next few days they may have an assassination attempted on them, And the DM can post in our forums so that we are aware of it when/if it does occur.

Why not use the game mechanics PvP for assassination attempts. The assassination is more the attack without warning before the attack and that still gives the advantage.

Let the one being assassinated know they are marked for assassination and see if they are okay with it. If they are willing to play along with the attempt then hostile them every time you see them on, even when your not going to try it that day, having them always hostile will also give them that genuine paranoia they should have as well but still never knowing when it will happen.

Doesn’t have to be a instant death, assassination attempts fail all the time so give it that chance you shall also fail Allot of good RP can be created with it if done right.

QPR wrote:

On my part, if I was subjected to something as stupid as *Walks up and stabs Valygar in the back, killing him instantly*, I'd just retort with *But Valygar, being the experienced hunter he is, sensed the blatantly obvious sneak up long before X got close, and with a fluid motion, he spinned aroudn and drove his dual blades through the assassins lungs before the poorly planned attempt against him could be executed*

On the other hand, if something like this happened, I would happily play along: *Walking towards Valygar with pleading eyes, the beggar extended his hand "Have a coin friend?", and as Valygar turned to his purse to find some gold to help the poor beggar, the beggar who infact is a disguised assassin, draws a hidden blade and stabs Valygar in the heart*

I have nothing against my char loosing or being killed, but i demand it to be done in a proper way with convincing RP.

I think a palemaster sort of pulled that off once.

Talked with someone, was all nice, etc. Then

'I guess now we say good bye' *offers a hand to shake*
*Victim shakes the hand*

And the rest was historty

Granted, if I'd want to assassinate someone I'd take several, and not just a single person for it.
Last time I was involved in an assassination attempt took it 4 attacks (Which were sneaks) of a 4 man team to took the NPC down.
Not as climactic as I imagined, but still.

Personally I prefer the Rp notion myself. You Rp, you roll, and that settles it.
The nwn engine is good for combat but not subtle things.

But NWN is good for RPing, that's for sure. ^.^ Assassinations is something that you'll definetly have to think through before doing them when it just merely comes to mind, I did something absolutely retarded once on an assassination and before ya know it all hell breaks loose.

But if it's a hired assassination, how much should be paid? Of course, you wouldn't want to over pay the boundaries and you wouldn't want to pay too less otherwise the assassin would rather turn on you instead(depending on their skill and blah blah blah) though this is probably something that can be found out in-game, but it's also something that could be found out OOCly aswell so no mistakes are made. No trouble with DM's = Perfect!

And, PM's... meh. Who in the right mind would wanna try and assassinate a PM!? ....*Looks at a specific PM* unless their Fort saves are absolutely bugger all and you have a handy piece of crappy poison weapon in hand. :twisted:

I've had someone try to assassinate my Ivshar some time back(a while before being in the Grove, or atleast joining or trying to. >.>) and unfortunatly he didn't get the whole PvP concept and assassinating, he merely thought it'd be a good idea to set me to hostile and paralyze(Shaddap! I'm an RP builder not a power builder!) me in the spot then cast darkness, then spam good ol' HiPS.

Is being an Assassin useful on the server? I had one in the past and I must say I wasn't all that impressed with it, even being a corner sneak is a -very- bad idea. Pure Rogue, not a go go. Unless, of course, being an Assassin you don't actually need to have classes in Assassin.

Oh, and if you're gonna assassinate someone, it'll be fair if you rolled no matter how much skill you have or what level you are, it's always fair. You never know, you may roll a 1 on Move Silently or Hide or the victim might roll a 20 on Spot or Listen. I always consider them being automatic wins/loses in RP which helps in some situations.

Edit: And one last thing, don't think your safe even with max spot on your character, you can't see through big heavy metal doors. >=3

In my opinion if you wish to assassinate someone without the chance of metagaming you should get a dm to aprove and monitor the atempt.
This way you do not have to tell your victem oocly that you might stab him (wich might result in that person "accidently" casting GS or Acidsheath+premotion).

Actually, I dont get it, the system is there and if you can sneak attack and kill the fella in one flurry/round before he retaliates, that happens. If you cant, you obviously arent as amazing an assassin as you may think?

The sneak dices go along with the rog/assassin levels afterall and in theory, high level = more sneak dice = more damage when you spring a surprise round on the fella. The engine takes care of everything else. If hes a PM hes immune to the sneaks. If he has DR or a ton of AC, you simply miss - which can be emoted/rped as your mark have amazing reflexes/awareness. His Hp reflects his constitution/endurance afterall, you may do a stab but hes an epic barbie and has a ton of Hp?

No need to get messy really. I kinda think its abit unnecessary.

What if time has stopped?

There's always that rather embaressing chance for a Wizard that even with jack all AB that when he casts Time Stop he still won't be able to hit his target with his flimsy staff.
Then look at the target of the Assassin, the mark is sleeping or leaning hunched over a desk with all his mind on the work he's doing rather than keep an awareness out for any intruders or stalkers on him.

Wouldn't make all that sense if you continuously kept missing when you're aiming at a still target, except for ranged assassinations due to wind currency and type of weapon being used at the time.

Unless the target has Epic Dodge or some other weird feat that allows them to notice the Assassin, then you should have full space to throw your weapon at them. So, I guess it's like what people have continuously mentioned just above this post, it depends on the RP involved and the characters that are being used in the situation,

Just dropping an emote that you cut someone's throat is pretty much godgaming, imho.

I've seen people hips and in between popping out and in, emoting cutting various "vital" spots, like wrists, etc etc.

This sort of stuff is godmodding. You wanna take out a char with one swift attack, then do it with the mechanics. Mad that your rogue can't instagib someone when they're unsuspecting? Well you won't get a saveless dev for free, no matter how hard you really RP throatslitting.

Going for soft spots like that, aren't only done in assassinations. Critical hits, etc etc, are all seen as hitting soft spots, rather than the other person shifting so you hit a less critical area, imo. You want a Coup de grâce, then get one by incapacitating your opponent, not assume you get one just because they aren't expecting it in that very moment.

My biggest pet peeve on diceroll RPed combat or such is that people assume way too much. Like RPing a punch, then rolling a str, and expecting me to roll dex back to avoid it or con to take it. It's skipping out on a few pretty important parts of the fight. Like rolling initiatives, to see who gets to act first, thanks to quick reflexes. Then actually rolling the attack, to show the accuracy of the attack, compared to how good the other one is at avoiding the punch.

For the most part, when someone's dicerolling, they'll either attack, roll an ability roll, assume for me to roll the same, and if I want initiative first or some sort of attack roll vs my ac, I'm lame, bad RPer, etc etc etc. So I tend to avoid as much dicerolled RP as I can, for that very reason. People end up bickering over the small details more than if it was an actual all out brawl. Mostly I think, because you can't replicate the game mechanics and such out, 100% in diceroll. And most want a simple version, where their char comes out on top.

Terra_777 wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

such as the fact that a plain dagger simply won't pierce barbarian skin, for instance.

It would if the person stabbing had like... 26 base strength and dev-crit with dagger right?

Uh... ha-ha, you took no damage but still died to dev crit!

Though thats more a engine screw up, no?

Actually, a dagger used correctly can be just as dangerous if not moreso as most other weapons. With it, you can be really close in and still puncture in to catch a lot of happy spots which people don't wanna have get punctured (lungs, internal organs)..

However , unfortunately there are only scant reflections to cover this so my mantra is: 'Don't laugh at the guy who can generate enough force to Dev Crit ya if you can avoid it'

This kinda reminds me of why I went one way I did in the development of my own diceless system. One of the main combat principles I had was tied to the two major elements of inflicting damage:

* The weapon/mechanism of injury, combined with the force put behind it.

* The Accuracy of the blow or blows.

Those are the two key factors, although most any weapon can kill used correctly.

Gravemaskin wrote:

Just dropping an emote that you cut someone's throat is pretty much godgaming, imho.

I've seen people hips and in between popping out and in, emoting cutting various "vital" spots, like wrists, etc etc.

This sort of stuff is godmodding. You wanna take out a char with one swift attack, then do it with the mechanics. Mad that your rogue can't instagib someone when they're unsuspecting? Well you won't get a saveless dev for free, no matter how hard you really RP throatslitting.

Going for soft spots like that, aren't only done in assassinations. Critical hits, etc etc, are all seen as hitting soft spots, rather than the other person shifting so you hit a less critical area, imo. You want a Coup de grâce, then get one by incapacitating your opponent, not assume you get one just because they aren't expecting it in that very moment.

My biggest pet peeve on diceroll RPed combat or such is that people assume way too much. Like RPing a punch, then rolling a str, and expecting me to roll dex back to avoid it or con to take it. It's skipping out on a few pretty important parts of the fight. Like rolling initiatives, to see who gets to act first, thanks to quick reflexes. Then actually rolling the attack, to show the accuracy of the attack, compared to how good the other one is at avoiding the punch.

For the most part, when someone's dicerolling, they'll either attack, roll an ability roll, assume for me to roll the same, and if I want initiative first or some sort of attack roll vs my ac, I'm lame, bad RPer, etc etc etc. So I tend to avoid as much dicerolled RP as I can, for that very reason. People end up bickering over the small details more than if it was an actual all out brawl. Mostly I think, because you can't replicate the game mechanics and such out, 100% in diceroll. And most want a simple version, where their char comes out on top.

Doing the emote assuming success is godgaming.

However, if doing an emote declaring what you're trying to do and waitng for the diceroll to properly decide isn't and it's what I'd like to see ,but yes I have seen more then my share of bickering on account of this (hell I've done a bit myself)

Two examples:

- Warrick quietly moves behind the enemy sentry then suddenly grabs him around the neck from behind, getting him in a chokehold and dropping him.

This example is Godgaming.

- Warrick moves towards the enemy, attempting to be as quiet as possible as he moves into position to attempt to grab the sentry in a chokehold from behind.

This example, isn't.

Tysonm1 gave a good point here. If someone is simply unaware of you than there is really minimum chances that you will miss. He may have AC 150 but if his head is not protected it will not prevent the assassin from driving the blade into his ear.

Imagine yourself missing someone who is just in front of you watching TV and eating popcorns thinking about something. You must be imbecile to miss. Or some miracle must save him.

RPing is the best way. You may even join the party, hunt with that person and than when he is resting...SNAP.

I had two situations with coup de grace and paying assassins.

In first mu friend got into the trouble with some people and I approached one girl from behind and placed a blade under her throat. Once they refused to back off and attacked my friend I sliced and she droped dead.

The other time I gave two assassins a contract to kill one man. I gave them informations etc and 20k gold each. I promised them 30k bonus gold after the job is done. Than I informed DMs on the channel and took screenshoots just in case. That is the way you should do I belive.

For a while my characters RP was focused entirely around assasintions, I ran a faction of Assassins, and after a long hard road I came to one conclusion. This RP should only be done between PC and NPC.

A large portion of the amian playerbase does not care for realism, or fairnes when it comes to assassination RP. Metagaming of the OOC warning is does knowingly or not by a large portion of players, whether it be to simply reduce playtime, buffing before leaving the city, checking for sd's. The fact is once you know the knowledge that siomeone is gunning for your PC you will act different.

Then we have the fact that a large portion of players will metagame the identity of the PC, RP with that PC will change, they may have been a close frind but once you are assasinated you will no longer follow the same path. This is because perma killing is not something players will agree too.

In my oppion Assassins should be a class that is feared, that causes true intimidation, that has a great risk but also a great reward. If you survived an epic assassin you should feel proud like you achieved something that the assassin after a long or short life in the role should then be perma dead. But the other flip of the coin should be that when that twist of the blade comes, that when you realise the person beside you who befriended you for the past 3 weeks was merey hired to kill you, you should loose your character. I'd love to see it as a restricted class but hey, I know this wouldnt happen but one can dream

Dead wrote:

Imagine yourself missing someone who is just in front of you watching TV and eating popcorns thinking about something. You must be imbecile to miss. Or some miracle must save him.

Strictly speaking, there need not be a miracle; magic will do.

I suppose it depends on how you interpret magic and AC. But keep this in mind: only Dodge AC represent avoiding attacks. It's the only thing you lose if you're caught unaware.

Natural AC means your natural hardiness; I suppose it means your skin is magically toughened. Armor Skin, Amulet of Natural Armor and Barkskin achieve this. A poorly aimed stab without the sufficent force would be just bounce off the skin. Deflection AC is something clearly magical: that's what rings and the spell Shield gives you. I reckon it's some kind of a force field that deflects blows automatically, though it can also mean deflecting attacks with your weapon. Both interpretations are used in the game. Then there's Armor AC: you're wearing those Robes of the Archmage, and they're just so damn resilient and cover almost every inch of skin, that you'll have a hard time slipping your blade through. Ditto for Shield modifier.

RP-wise, I suppose the order they work is this: first you must bypass armor and shield protection. This, I suppose, is pretty easy if the subject is still and unaware. It depends on the armor type, I guess. After that, you must overcome the magical deflection field that tries to propel your attacks away. Finally, you still have to maintain the force and accuracy to pierce the "natural" resistance of the target's skin (which can be enhanced by magic) to score a hit.

And then you have to hope they're not wearing gear with Slashing/Piercing Resistance, or have that naturally (like Barbarians and DwDs do). And even then, you'll have to manage to kill them quick enough for them not to regenerate or grab a potion, which isn't necessarily easy if it's a big chunk of meat you're trying to kill.

I still remember when Ray assassinated Xaviera in south Cordor at the request of someone who shall remain nameless. Xavi still doesnt know ICly who did it or why. It was announced to me in a tell that an attempt would occur, but I dont remember now whether she was actually attacked or if it was just RP'd out. I've also received a few other notifications that never materialized.

Having a DM or other player announce the hit a few days in advance is a good idea and getting the player to consent to it is obviously necessary. It obviously depends on how flexible and accommodating the intended victim is.

Big question then: How does tumble work into all of this?
Or dexterity for that matter.

You guys have no imagination. Ever killed a mark by dropping a stuffed animal head onto them making it look like an accident? Love to see what the roll for that would be.

Will Vs Shame, DC 35. On Fail: -4 to Charisma and -10 to bluff and persuade.
No one wants to talk with someone who died that way, and the stuffed animal head just looks silly.

^^

The engine works wonderfully imho.

The epic adventurer sitting still and eating popcorn? He's considered flat-footed. He loses his dodge, tumble and dex bonuses. You should be able to hit him. If you cant kill him within the one round where he is unbuffed and flatfooted b4 he quaffs a pot? You mechanically just arent a good enough assassin.

Its awfully simple and just trying to pull in OOC reasons like "but i can stab his ear!" when the engine (which runs fine thus far) says you havent got enough ab or sneak dices makes one seem like a bad sport really.

His stats as an epic adventurer means he has enough constitution etc. you rolling low means you miss. quite simply, you failed. You did not stab through the guys ear. Awfully simple.

the facct that your PC hasnt got dev crit or a crap load of sneak dices means *he* doesnt know how to do those techniques despite you as a player do know it.

Jas wrote:

If you cant kill him within the one round where he is unbuffed and flatfooted b4 he quaffs a pot? You mechanically just arent a good enough assassin.

Well, considering most epic fighters have about 400 - 500 Hp at their level 30's (Also seen a build for 1000 HP) and you can cause.. 5d6 (from 10 Rogue levels) + 10d6 (for 20 Assassin levels)... 15 - 90 damage with a single sneak attack, is that not a really good explanation. Even if you should take Improved sneak on all epic levels (21, 24, 28) and totally cripple yourself that way can you only raise your damage by 3 - 18 points.

There would be no way to instant assassin them, and once they focus on you are they no longer flat footed and you get no more sneaks. And then its goodbye assassin.

The best thing you can do as an assassin PC is always send an OOC tell to your marks that warns generally "Your Pc (name) is on an assassination list" or "somebody want's your Pc's (name)'s head".

I advise you ask a few people to send the OOC tells so it doesn't give away who's going to be commiting the crime. And while it warns the person; you really should be allowed to trust they won't Metagame and stay ready in a means they normally wouldn't be. Expecially since you're not saying it will happen soon. I say a 2-day window after such is pretty fair based on my own experience.

When somebody wanted Weston Carter's head, I got -at least- 12 OOC tells from different people who were saying "you know somebody want's Weston's head?" Some warnings, some surprised, nobody saying who or when.

This made my experience MUCH better 3 days later when an assassin found me and almost succeeded. I had not metagamed, I stayed honest with what Weston already had. But as a Player, I didn't loose my temper or nerve (which PvP is very hard for me in any form). Although it gave me a heck of a shock, I was warned and could settle down a lot better knowing it was supposed to be happening.

Mind you, I don't care how cute and clever your efforts are, I still choose when my PC dies. At the same time, I am very reasonable. I nearly did have Weston slain by a slit-throat while they were sleeping recently. Why? Because it was discussed OOC to have a little event of the ordeal on how it would be set-up and see what came to happen.

I remember a post of someone who sneaked up to the victom, OOC informed him and waited till the character went to sleep for rebuff to kill him, thats the way to do it.

Jas wrote:

The engine works wonderfully imho.

The epic adventurer sitting still and eating popcorn? He's considered flat-footed. He loses his dodge, tumble and dex bonuses. You should be able to hit him. If you cant kill him within the one round where he is unbuffed and flatfooted b4 he quaffs a pot? You mechanically just arent a good enough assassin.

Its awfully simple and just trying to pull in OOC reasons like "but i can stab his ear!" when the engine (which runs fine thus far) says you havent got enough ab or sneak dices makes one seem like a bad sport really.

His stats as an epic adventurer means he has enough constitution etc. you rolling low means you miss. quite simply, you failed. You did not stab through the guys ear. Awfully simple.

the facct that your PC hasnt got dev crit or a crap load of sneak dices means *he* doesnt know how to do those techniques despite you as a player do know it.

Agreed full-heartedly. Even when RP fighting, I personally use the rolls like the engine would. If caught unawares, I'll use flatfooted AC. If I'm aware of the incoming attack in a way where that would make sense, I use ragular, or if they are already in "motion" aka a fighting stance, some of my characters use tumble(vs Attack of Opp.) to move away/back.

It would also be well to note that having the Epic Dodge feat does not mean whever someone tries to grab you, hit you, etc in RP that you just have to luxury of saying *Epic Dodge* to everything that happens. Characters get multiple attackes per round in RP just like they would in mechanical PvP. Sure, for like the first attack and your character is aware of it, but if someone's making multiple grab/hit attempts at you like they would have, then don't be a munchkin about it. I've had the sad pleasure of casting Grasping on someone long, long ago, had them held there, and when I emoted *places hand on shoulder*, the target seriously went *epic dodge* :roll:

. That's one place where the system drops the ball, unfortunately.

Perhaps having played PnP before, you get the sense of how stuff works out RPly better. It should be remembered that stuff like concealment and premonition translates over too. If you've got 10% conceal from Ghostly Visage on, then when someone rolls a grapple/hit attempt at you, it's fully within your right to roll a d100 and claim that if it's lower than 10, they missed due to it, IMO. As well with premonition. I've usually found by actually letting the attacker take one real hit at you if you have it on works well. If you suffer any damage (they hit for over 30 damage and some went through), then you evaded, but were still partially hit, act accordingly. If nothing goes through, then the spell granted you enough insight to move out of the way.

These are of course my interpritations, though. It really comes down to whatever the two people RPing agree on.

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It would also be well to note that having the Epic Dodge feat does not mean whever someone tries to grab you, hit you, etc in RP that you just have to luxury of saying *Epic Dodge* to everything that happens.

I did not just read that and neither did anyone else! :O

Assassination : Two RPers on agreement. One goes nap time. Other comes in with blade. Crap load of dice rolls later. Both say 'Yes' or 'No' to it happening. Le' fin. DC's handed out and cookies to be baked.

Grymia wrote:

Doing the emote assuming success is godgaming.

However, if doing an emote declaring what you're trying to do and waitng for the diceroll to properly decide isn't and it's what I'd like to see ,but yes I have seen more then my share of bickering on account of this (hell I've done a bit myself)

Two examples:

- Warrick quietly moves behind the enemy sentry then suddenly grabs him around the neck from behind, getting him in a chokehold and dropping him.

This example is Godgaming.

- Warrick moves towards the enemy, attempting to be as quiet as possible as he moves into position to attempt to grab the sentry in a chokehold from behind.

This example, isn't.

Yus, I wholeheartedly agree. There's a vast difference between the two. Just saying that sadly, the latter version of that is pretty rare. And when someone makes a roll, they more often than not "demand" what sort of roll you're going ot make.

"I just rolled STR to punch you! Roll dex to evade!" "...No? Roll melee touch vs my touch attack if you want to hit..." "No... lame!" "lame!" etc etc etc. Just seems so silly when both parties end up bickering over it more often than not.

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Tysonm1 gave a good point here. If someone is simply unaware of you than there is really minimum chances that you will miss. He may have AC 150 but if his head is not protected it will not prevent the assassin from driving the blade into his ear.

AC is AC. When you're unsuspecting of a foe, it's concidered being flatfoot.

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A character or creature that is caught unawares or otherwise unprepared is considered to be flat-footed. A flat-footed character loses his dexterity and dodge bonuses to armor class and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

A character is considered to be flat-footed when:

* They are performing a non-combat task.
* They are in ready mode (have not yet acted in a combat).
* They move outside of the combat radius.
* They are entangled.
* They are prone.
* They are sleeping.
* They are attacked by a hidden creature and do not have the blind fight feat.
* They finish casting a spell and do not have another action in their action queue.

Some feats/special abilities cannot be used while flat-footed. Some feats/special abilities allow retention of the dexterity AC bonus even when flat-footed.

Flat-footed characters are candidates for a rogue/blackguard sneak attack and/or assassin death attack.

So you make an attack vs flatfoot AC instead. if flatfooted ac is 150, then it's 150. (even if it can't really go above 127). So IMHO, even freely hanging man parts, because of how the person moves/shifts, naturally blocks.. however you want to describe the insane AC. Making him/her harder to hit at point blank, if they don't want you to, than hitting a beetle's eye at 150 paces with a feather.

In the end it always comes down to mutual agreements though, I guess. So Assassins wanting an assassination, should just follow the Amian rules. Tell the player and get permission beforehand for assassination RP without needing a prior engagement before pvp. OR DM oversight. Personally the latter is probably smarter, since the DM can then settle disputes on weather or not someone was shanked in the soft spot, killing them instantly, or only took as much HP as a normal attack would.

So that pretty much finishes this topic of the week then?

I'd say so.

So, who wants cookies?

GAH! *Pounces and mugs for the cookies then flees into his dark evil den that smells of coffee.*

hendrack wrote:

I remember a post of someone who sneaked up to the victom, OOC informed him and waited till the character went to sleep for rebuff to kill him, thats the way to do it.

That's happened to me, actually. Except, there was no OOC notice, and the assassin ended up dead rather than my character.

To answer the TS:

No, I wouldn't be cool with someone walking up behind Darthion and emote *slits his throat* after which Darthion falls down dead.

Although... I did agree to that once, in Cordor, but likely won't again.

I belive that some people here are scared that they might loose. *shrugs*

Assassins should be feared, very much, that is the reason I brought up this question. And I wasn't talking about perma death at any point. Raise dead, true ressurection etc...

And what if there is no DMs online at the moment? What if there is a five to ten players who want to RP like this? Should you pass the chance or inform the character. "Hey there are no DMs online so Im informing you. Im about to cut your throat."

There are tough armor-skins but there are also even stronger blades. Go to the weaponsmith, craft adamantine shortsword, profit.

Assassinations (backstabbing)

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