AMIA ARCHIVE :: View topic - Should initiative play a part in PvP?

Normally im the one trying to roleplay so my character gets stomped while im typing... even though he has a 14 dex mod so I imagine him being able to react faster than almost any other character on the server. I just think rolling initiative could help people relax a bit, rp freely before a fight starts, and help everyone prepare for that 'bomb drop' moment.

Best PvP I've ever had was on a server that used Dice Roll's for PvP and DM Boss Monster combat. So we basically did DnD dice rolling IG. It was awesome! The fights took a LONG time, but we got to discribe every move, ever slash, every potion and every wound taken. It was amazing. We also had so many oppertunities to do things you could never do in combat on NWN.

If Amian's were more receptive to this type of PvP, I'd be all for it! Though it does take literally hours to do one battle. But it makes you feel so accomplished and very satisfied after.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I would love to see this in DM events.

It takes literally hours and requires every participant to be 100% aaware of the pen and paper rules. It becomes ver boring for a lot of people, very quickly.

I'd have loved to do the final combats of Wyrmhold PnP style but it just wasn't feasible.

Actually, it would have been very very awesome. 40 PCS vs 4 ancient dragons. Man. Initiative would have been a bitch, though. That's where realtime beats large scale turnbased games. 38 PCs act before you do. In realtime you can all coordinate.

Anything that engenders OOC anything isn't admirable, imo.

but wouldn't both players feel the fight was conducted with more OOC courtesy, and thus avoid any OOC moaning that would normally happen after most pvp fights?

Communicate behind the scenes, and send the individual a tell, somethign to the effect (ideally long before it comes to blows) "Hey,I'd like to RP this out, are you cool with that?"

But honestly, if it's something important, IE. for instance lets say someones attacking Tarkuul.. I'm not going to be polite and ask for OOC permission. I'm going to hostile, drop as many as I can.

Feel free to ask me OOC'ly, I'd love to RP with ya.

Mmm, apology first, then we'll see.

Vaylek wrote:

Mmm, apology first, then we'll see.

And that is what I get when I try to be magnanimous and forgiving.

Author:	Vaylek [ Fri, Oct 16 2009, 12:57 PM ]
Post subject:	Should initiative play a part in PvP?
So we all know there should be roleplay and OOC permission before any pvp occurs. My character hates yours and vice versa, were both cool with taking the conflict to pvp to heighten the drama of the scene, but who should act first? As far as I know, initiative in NwN matters when combat begins and your character enters that combatative stance. But you're never in that stance when you're typing, whether your saying something OOC or whether your trying to RP or emote. How many times have we died at the cusp of pvp because we were still describing a combatative flourish, some witty slur, or even just mentioning something OOC? ...And how many times have we decided not to type out any of those things, because we wanted to have our hand on the mouse, devoting our full attention to the micro-storm of pvp, which could begin any second?! Well, this is the question I put to you. Would it make pvp more courteous and dramatic, and reward characters with the improved initiative feat, or just a high dex, if people rolled initiative at the start of pvp, and just allow the winner a few seconds to get the 'opening punch' as they should be entitled to by PnP rules. If you agree, tick yes. Or do you feel its unreasonable, unneccesary, timewasting, fodder for player complaining or that initiative is already represented enough in pvp? If thats the case tick no. Another reason rolling initiative in pvp would be unfavourable is when there are a LOT of characters at the cusp of pvp, obviously that could be complicated.

Author:	Yurell [ Fri, Oct 16 2009, 13:00 PM ]
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It's one of those things - if you want to roll, go ahead. If not, don't. Personally I think the numbers on your character sheet should represent your character, but that's just me.

Author:	Nekhy [ Fri, Oct 16 2009, 13:01 PM ]
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Permission is not required, though. The rules were revised to remove that particular part, because it got abused so much. Not so sure about rolling for initiatives. It sucks if you're keen on RPing more before someone attacks, but I am not sure if that is something that can be solved by rolling dice. I can think of situations that would render the whole dice worthless quite soon, too. People who want to be dicks will be dicks, rules or not.

Author:	Jas [ Fri, Oct 16 2009, 14:59 PM ]
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Personaly, i prefer to leave it to mechanics. Initiative already factors in when HiPs spamming so nah, I vote no. No need to further complicate things imho, dice rolls break the general immersion i feel.

Author:	555444333 [ Fri, Oct 16 2009, 15:25 PM ]
Post subject:
Initiative is determined when a combat starts anyway.

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Author:	Maias227 [ Fri, Oct 16 2009, 16:55 PM ]
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I use it sometimes as a dm but I do think it is too much of a hazle otherwise. I do it mostly to make combat a bit more interesting and give time for people to write emotes and such. Its not very practical though.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Fri, Oct 16 2009, 18:41 PM ]
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I can and have used it in general DM encounters. General PVP use? Not really practical. The engine determines it for you.

Author:	Vaylek [ Fri, Oct 16 2009, 23:05 PM ]
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The system determines it when both characters are ready, but if one player is typing then their character is always going to cop the first blow. So it kind of punishes people for RPing that dramatic, tense moment before a fight starts: I find this moment to be one of the richest RPwise. You can describe the stance your character takes, or say a few final words to your hated rival before the two of you meet blades. I find people go strangely silent before pvp, because they just want to be ready for when that bomb drops: When someone goes in for a knockdown, starts casting a spell, or buffing themselves. Normally im the one trying to roleplay so my character gets stomped while im typing... even though he has a 14 dex mod so I imagine him being able to react faster than almost any other character on the server. I just think rolling initiative could help people relax a bit, rp freely before a fight starts, and help everyone prepare for that 'bomb drop' moment. I guess I'm asking this because I roleplay a lot at the cusp of PvP, and I like to try and milk as much drama from pvp as possible, and its just so damn hard when characters neither talk nor emote, and just lock themselves into 'pvp preparation mode'. Most people type with two hands and we all know to pvp properly you need one hand on the mouse. Can initiative help bring more roleplay to Amia's biggest OOC exercise and the cause for most OOC grief: PvP.

Author:	555444333 [ Fri, Oct 16 2009, 23:06 PM ]
Post subject:
'Surprise Round'

Author:	Vaylek [ Fri, Oct 16 2009, 23:17 PM ]
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Well, by pnp rules, suprise round comes if one party or individual is not AWARE of the opposing party or individual (so if the HiPser backstabs you, he's entitled to a suprise round). Can't do that with Amia's pvp rules. Not saying the rules are bad, just that you have to see and RP with the character your about to pvp with before a fight breaks out. So in a PnP sense suprise rounds would never occur on Amia. Doesnt mean suprise rounds dont happen, just means they happen when players suprise one another. Its never a reflection of the character/build they play.

Author:	555444333 [ Fri, Oct 16 2009, 23:21 PM ]
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To be honest, people are such morons when engaging in PvP nine times out of ten they will just forget it anyway, so rather than cause more OOC bickering than is already associated with PvP let it alone.

Author:	BlackDahlya [ Sat, Oct 17 2009, 7:30 AM ]
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Vaylek wrote: Normally im the one trying to roleplay so my character gets stomped while im typing... even though he has a 14 dex mod so I imagine him being able to react faster than almost any other character on the server. I just think rolling initiative could help people relax a bit, rp freely before a fight starts, and help everyone prepare for that 'bomb drop' moment. I agree because of this. But I think that ego can still get in the way.

Author:	Selvec Darkon [ Sat, Oct 17 2009, 13:37 PM ]
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Best PvP I've ever had was on a server that used Dice Roll's for PvP and DM Boss Monster combat. So we basically did DnD dice rolling IG. It was awesome! The fights took a LONG time, but we got to discribe every move, ever slash, every potion and every wound taken. It was amazing. We also had so many oppertunities to do things you could never do in combat on NWN. If Amian's were more receptive to this type of PvP, I'd be all for it! Though it does take literally hours to do one battle. But it makes you feel so accomplished and very satisfied after.

Author:	HellScourge [ Sat, Oct 17 2009, 15:49 PM ]
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Selvec Darkon wrote: Best PvP I've ever had was on a server that used Dice Roll's for PvP and DM Boss Monster combat. So we basically did DnD dice rolling IG. It was awesome! The fights took a LONG time, but we got to discribe every move, ever slash, every potion and every wound taken. It was amazing. We also had so many oppertunities to do things you could never do in combat on NWN. If Amian's were more receptive to this type of PvP, I'd be all for it! Though it does take literally hours to do one battle. But it makes you feel so accomplished and very satisfied after. You can so count me in for that! I -love- writing detailed combat moves, even if they are outlandish, how my character charges into battle, sweat dripping down, eyes widened, fear in his heart, etc. All that stuff. Reminds me, I should check that text adventure again. I wonder if they got the fight club copy together again. Got more decent fights there than in Amia.

Author:	Brown Blur [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 4:02 AM ]
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Ok.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 10:52 AM ]
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My split second moments aren't "He crosses the distance and hacks at you". My split second moments are "The dragon is flying at your face right now he's 30 feet away you can do ONE. THING. What is it?" I won't stop you from using it in general use, it's not against the rules, but it shouldn't BE a rule: PvP is handled splendidly by the engine, NWN is a combat game after all.

Author:	Silvarus [ Sat, Oct 17 2009, 15:53 PM ]
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Selvec Darkon wrote: Best PvP I've ever had was on a server that used Dice Roll's for PvP and DM Boss Monster combat. So we basically did DnD dice rolling IG. It was awesome! The fights took a LONG time, but we got to discribe every move, ever slash, every potion and every wound taken. It was amazing. We also had so many oppertunities to do things you could never do in combat on NWN. If Amian's were more receptive to this type of PvP, I'd be all for it! Though it does take literally hours to do one battle. But it makes you feel so accomplished and very satisfied after. I would love to see this in DM events.

Author:	BlackDahlya [ Sat, Oct 17 2009, 21:29 PM ]
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Silvarus wrote: Selvec Darkon wrote: Best PvP I've ever had was on a server that used Dice Roll's for PvP and DM Boss Monster combat. So we basically did DnD dice rolling IG. It was awesome! The fights took a LONG time, but we got to discribe every move, ever slash, every potion and every wound taken. It was amazing. We also had so many oppertunities to do things you could never do in combat on NWN. If Amian's were more receptive to this type of PvP, I'd be all for it! Though it does take literally hours to do one battle. But it makes you feel so accomplished and very satisfied after. I would love to see this in DM events. Me too, but I can live without it if it will not always be feasible.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Sat, Oct 17 2009, 21:56 PM ]
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It takes literally hours and requires every participant to be 100% aaware of the pen and paper rules. It becomes ver boring for a lot of people, very quickly. I'd have loved to do the final combats of Wyrmhold PnP style but it just wasn't feasible.

Author:	BlackDahlya [ Sat, Oct 17 2009, 22:53 PM ]
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TormakSaber wrote: It takes literally hours and requires every participant to be 100% aaware of the pen and paper rules. It becomes ver boring for a lot of people, very quickly. I'd have loved to do the final combats of Wyrmhold PnP style but it just wasn't feasible. I tried to imagine this. It made me giggle and very sorry for you. In my mind's eye, you got much older.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Sat, Oct 17 2009, 23:24 PM ]
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Actually, it would have been very very awesome. 40 PCS vs 4 ancient dragons. Man. Initiative would have been a bitch, though. That's where realtime beats large scale turnbased games. 38 PCs act before you do. In realtime you can all coordinate.

Author:	Grymia [ Sat, Oct 17 2009, 23:36 PM ]
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TormakSaber wrote: It takes literally hours and requires every participant to be 100% aaware of the pen and paper rules. It becomes ver boring for a lot of people, very quickly. I'd have loved to do the final combats of Wyrmhold PnP style but it just wasn't feasible. I don't think they make headache medication strong enough for that, I really don't.

Author:	BlackDahlya [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 0:19 AM ]
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TormakSaber wrote: Actually, it would have been very very awesome. 40 PCS vs 4 ancient dragons. Man. Initiative would have been a bitch, though. That's where realtime beats large scale turnbased games. 38 PCs act before you do. In realtime you can all coordinate. You're a masochist. >_>;;

Author:	TormakSaber [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 1:02 AM ]
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No, I just have a very cinematic mindset with my events.

Author:	Selvec Darkon [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 1:20 AM ]
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I DMed a few of those events on the server I spoke of. I can tell you that you don't need amazing knowledge of PnP rules. Most of it is sense really, and you use common sense as the DM for the attacks. Example: Beginning of the match everyone rolls INTIVIATIVE. Highest INTIVIATIVE goes first, lowest last. This includes the DM rolling for the monster. Someone attacks the monster. They roll AB, Monster Rolls AC, if AB is higher then attack gets past. (Now this is what differs from normal ADnD) Person rolls STR, Monster rolls CON, the difference between the two rolls is what decides how effective the attack is. So if player rolls 2, monster rolls 19. Then it's not very effective. If Monster Rolls 2, player rolls 19, the attack is to strong and may do a lot of damage, but may also put someone in a vaunrable spot because of it. If monster rolls 15, player rolls 14, then it does a LOT of damage. If either rolls 20, then it's a crit, or crit defence. It's different to ADnD rules, but it works much better on NWN. Magical effects to weapons work differently, and magic does damage based on it's in game casting. You want to cast a spell, you cast the spell, damage done is damage done. No rolls for that. Obviously doing movement stuff will rely on movement dependent attributes. Say if you try and tumble backwards, you'd use tumble against AB. The DM makes the judgement of what Dice Rolls are needed during each turn. Obviously the only downside is that it requires a DM most of the time. Unless both parties know the rules and are willing to follow them, or one player is designated as the player DM for the fight. Usually someone not even present that people just communicate with each other via PM's.

Author:	Vaylek [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 2:41 AM ]
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So initiative in DM events is something people are encouraging of, but I really don't think it would be that hard to implement in everyday pvp situations. People would just need to politely ask and not try and force it on someone. It would only matter for the very first actions taken by the characters, after the pvp begins, you carry it out as you normally would. The main reason I'm advocating this is for the very start of PvP, and whats fair and what would make more sense based on character statistics. So it could happen like this... (The //stuff would probably happen in tells) Paladin approaches pale master, blade drawn, a hateful glare in his eyes. Pale master smirks with his undead minion standing beside him Paladin: This day is your last, evil doer! PM: I am undying, fool! Come any closer and I shall destroy you! Paladin: // Pvp permission? PM: // Sure! Want to roll initiative? Paladin: // Um ok... roll roll ...14 PM: // Rolls I got 7, doh. Okay so you come at me and after you've made one attack my character reacts Paladin: // Okay, just gonna say one more thing PM: // k Paladin: With a sudden and unexpected burst of energy, he draws his sword and charges in, slicing at the PM with a powerful smite ...Paladin player gets to take his hands off the keyboard, click the PM, and after he makes one attack the PM player responds with GS or bigby or whatever. Now the OOC exchange and dice rolling here might be seen as a further hassle beyond simply asking for pvp permission, but wouldn't both players feel the fight was conducted with more OOC courtesy, and thus avoid any OOC moaning that would normally happen after most pvp fights? So you take a bit of extra OOC courtesy before a fight starts, and avoid hurt feelings that are often there after the fight ends. AND you can both RP that tense moment before combat a little more without worrying about getting bigbied or knocked down while your in the middle of typing. Anyway, maybe this will start a trend...

Author:	TormakSaber [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 2:48 AM ]
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I find real-time just fine. The silence is indicative of the Mexican Standoff. The terse, tense silence where imagination fills the gaps, where silent posturing and staring is the norm, the calm before the storm. Turn based tends to fail for these things, even in PnP, because you assume that over the course of 6 seconds, the defender stands and does nothing and can't react at all while the attacker has free reign to move and activate an item.

Author:	Brown Blur [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 2:52 AM ]
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I like that idea a *lot*, Vaylek. I'm not one for PvP much, certainly not often, but as well as a degree of realism, it engenders OOC 'courtesy' & communication, & could take a lot of the 'dissatisfaction' out of PvP.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 2:56 AM ]
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Anything that engenders OOC anything isn't admirable, imo.

Author:	Brown Blur [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 3:19 AM ]
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TormakSaber wrote: Anything that engenders OOC anything isn't admirable, imo. I can completely agree, Tormak, that some players might find that such OOC dialogue ruins immersion in a possibly 'tense moment' (and potentially disagree not just for themselves, but as a concept too), but with the OOC friction that potentially PvP can cause, I can see how establishing OOC 'goodwill' with that contact, might suit some, as a counter to the IC hostility...as in the 'conflict between characters and not between players.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 3:59 AM ]
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To stay on topic.... Quote: but wouldn't both players feel the fight was conducted with more OOC courtesy, and thus avoid any OOC moaning that would normally happen after most pvp fights? No, because these are the people that moan about PvP period. Rolling a die isn't going to change the fact that they're griping because, oh no, conflict happened.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 4:04 AM ]
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Well, have you been in a situation where that isn't true? To me you're just shifting the complaints slightly backward. PVP is still happening so the same ol' complaints will still happen. The engine's combat is real time, so I think unless you're going to do the entire fight RPly, you should keep it in real time 100%. Mix and matching the systems tends to work badly, IMO. Once combat starts, do it all by the engine.

Author:	Gravemaskin [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 4:30 AM ]
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Initiative is pretty cool to use in events. Like Tormak's Mylthar event.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 5:28 AM ]
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That's what I tend to use it for. Split second dramatic moments.

Author:	Vaylek [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 9:44 AM ]
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Well I'd say you're being just a little bit hypocritical, Tormak, saying that initiative works for you but the rest of the server shouldn't try it because we all cry like babies after every fight our characters have with one another. I'm proposing exactly the same thing you use initiative for - fleshing out dramatic split second moments. A lot of people are actually really good sports if they feel complicit with the pvp that's just occured. If they feel they were treated politely OOC and that the PvP was actually part of a larger RP'd scene, the reduction in OOC heckling afterwards is incredible, and I say this from experience playing a character who has been in a lot of pvp with all sorts of characters and players. And rolling a dice is another way of being complicit with the pvp, so players have less grounds to complain afterwards (always a good thing) because they took part in an exercise involving mostly luck. Eg, say a 5th level character is getting provoked by a 30th, they both agree to pvp and decide to roll initiative. The 5th level character has a good chance at winning the initiative, and gaining the first action (a minor victory or happy feeling for the player). Because he was invited to take part in this fair little OOC ritual, that is also IC justified 100% by the rules, he feels he was treated fairly by the other player, whether he wins or loses, and so he would be more likely to keep any OOC flaming to himself. Well, I think he would anyway. Wouldn't you?

Author:	ticket [ Sun, Oct 18 2009, 10:52 AM ]
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I like it. I know if I met someone who invited me to roll an initiative to prelude a PvP, I'd be more than happy to. It probably won't make it as a mandatory thing for the server though. It's just one of those trends that you have to start using yourself and hope people catch on.