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Also, as well as trying to attract NEW players, we should also be figuring out why people leave.

I recommend the DM team draw up a standard Exit interview, when people leave. This will record the data needed as to why people are leaving. Over time, patterns might emerge as to why people are taking their bat and ball elsewhere.

These trends, if any, can be addressed. It won't of course, stop a disgruntled player from leaving the server, but it will help for future lessons, especially useful for picking up common trends.

I actually do that now and then. I think 90% of the reasons is one of these: lost interest, has a problem with (an)other player(s), other priorities, got a ban/penalty. I can't change any of those.

And its no big loss if they got a Ban and can't handle that :twisted:

Granted, I've seen some fun players getting themself banned and I miss them. But oh well. *shrug*

We lost quite a few decent players because we stripped them for muling/twinking. It's a shame, but I don't think we should refrain from doing so just because we like player A more than player B.

*waves the "give budly another chance" banner*

(edit: for new people, he didn't get banned for cheating, don't want ppl to think that. He was banned for having a temper that kept getting him into ooc problems with DM's and other players on a frequent basis... not daily, but close)

Dev Disco wrote:

We lost quite a few decent players because we stripped them for muling/twinking. It's a shame, but I don't think we should refrain from doing so just because we like player A more than player B.

Why? I think if someone has contributed very positively to the server with his RP and created lots of fun he should be treated with some care. The times are coming when there won't be enough new guys who can take the places of those that leave.

But in a more general sense. Maybe we should treasure much more all the fine players and RP communities we have on the server. I know that it might sometimes be hard work, but DM and players should always look for some kind of compromises that will not result in people to leave.

Why should a long term player not have to play by the same rules as others? Cheating is cheating, no matter who does it.

There's very few things we ask of our players in the end. People have quite the freedom to RP. We ask, that they don't give items to each other unfairly (and give an option to give them as gifts still, just ask a DM to transfer it and it's good). Or that they don't transfer items between their characters unfairly. I don't think it's a lot to ask, really. It's also respect to other players, and the DMs to follow the few rules on the server.

Quote:

Why? I think if someone has contributed very positively to the server with his RP and created lots of fun he should be treated with some care.

No. 5 days or 5 years, if you've given 500 dollars or jack squat, you got the same rights as everyone else on the server. You cheat, we crack you with the hammer. Normally speaking the punishment isn't a ban: People choose to leave of their own accord.

It's a hard position to be in. I don't think the DMs enjoy (well maybe the sadistic ones) punishing long time players and even friends.

ClockworkRed wrote:

Why? I think if someone has contributed very positively to the server with his RP and created lots of fun he should be treated with some care. The times are coming when there won't be enough new guys who can take the places of those that leave.

Why should a 'good' RPer be punished differently to a 'bad' one?

Edit: Oops, forgot to hit submit and others posted in the meantime.

ticket wrote:

It's a hard position to be in. I don't think the DMs enjoy (well maybe the sadistic ones) punishing long time players and even friends.

No. It's absolutely horrible on many levels. First, I don't particularly enjoy being mean and punishing people (in general, but there are a few punishments where I take full enjoyment, such as banning people for sending lewd tells without consent etc.). Secondly, if it's a friend or someone I've been on good terms with, I feel both sorry for them because they get punished and sorry in general because a certain trust has been broken.

The latter is especially the case when people mule and twink. Twinking could be avoided altogether by confirming gifts with the DMs and helping the characters out in other ways (there's plenty of those, that don't break the rules). Muling just breaks my heart. It's such a simple thing we ask, it's not impossible to play on Amia without muling gear between your characters and most people get by just fine. The rule is there to keep the game fair for every character, so when you break it you essentially say you don't care for fair game and don't respect your peers in that sense.

And that hurts, when it's an otherwise good player doing it.

I rather play on a full server with a few cheaters than on an empty and fair server. Honestly, in what way does twinkling, muling or avoiding the death penalties by switching server by opther players affect my game enjoyment. Niente.

If the punishment for breaking these, in my eyes mostly unimportant rules, make established and contributing players leave the server, they are more harming my gaming experience as player on Amia than aiding it.

I disagree entirely. Rules are there for a reason. It's so it is fair for everyone. You don't care that others have an unfair advantage over you? Fine. Others, however, do care. I know I'd rather not play on a server where merely having been on for a while lets you cheat and do whatever else you like.

I must say I am personally inclined to ClockworkRed's approach. I really can't be bothered by twinking and muling and I think our penalties are draconic. I'd rather not lose players over such, in my opinion, trivialities.

However, fair is fair, and you know the penalty. If you leave because you got caught... well, it's a shame, but it isn't the DM's fault, it's your own. I wouldn't want to be the one who says "this player doesn't have to be stripped, and that one does", by the way.

The current twinking rule is the most poorly written and adapted rule I've so far seen on Amia.

ClockworkRed wrote:

I rather play on a full server with a few cheaters than on an empty and fair server. Honestly, in what way does twinkling, muling or avoiding the death penalties by switching server by opther players affect my game enjoyment. Niente.

If the punishment for breaking these, in my eyes mostly unimportant rules, make established and contributing players leave the server, they are more harming my gaming experience as player on Amia than aiding it.

Interesting and very tempting... These are desperate times. (Or is it? I have no idea.) I'd have to admit I do like having a bustling server.

Twinking leads to stronger cliques than would naturally form. If that was allowed (read: if that was not disallowed and discouraged), a lot of people would be competing in the social pecking order to get the goodies from the epics, and I doubt it would be pure IC actions guiding that process.

That would leave other people outside the cliques, left to fend on their own against the clearly more powerful peers who get their goodies from highbies. And that leads to bitterness and bad OOC atmosphere in general.

I guess not everybody would be affected or feel it was unfair enough to ruin the fun, but a lot of people would. I know I wouldn't play on a server that had a rampant twinking problem. I wouldn't enjoy it at all.

Now, we know the cliques form regardless of twinking. We can't prevent it all. But banning twinking is a way to curb it down somewhat.

I'd rather have a few bitter players (essentially those who get caught) than a lot more of bitter players, feeling left outside of the cliques who hold all the power.

And again, there's a very good way to prevent any bitter feelings over getting caught: don't do it in the first place. It's no different from the cybering rule, or the PvP rules. Just don't give lowbies stuff, and you got nothing to worry about.

I miss the point about cliques, I am afraid.

Dev Disco wrote:

I miss the point about cliques, I am afraid.

You're in the 'in' crowd, or you're not. Think of it like the social group problems that exist at schools ... certainly not pleasant.

Last edited by Nekhy on Thu, Oct 15 2009, 10:55 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Dev Disco wrote:

I miss the point about cliques, I am afraid.

Buddying up with epics to get goodies, if that'd give you an advantage over peers, for example. Or epics picking and choosing whom they give their epic gear to. In the past, I've seen it pretty rampant on a few servers that allowed it. Female characters offering up cybersex to get the goodies is not unheard of either.

I actually find it funny, that you'd be fine with rampant player nepotism when you're so careful about giving DCs to players you know, Disco.

Honestly, there must be something between zero-tolerance and punishments that piss people of in a way they say good-bye to a server they played on for a long time and no rule at all.

ClockworkRed wrote:

Honestly, there must be something between zero-tolerance and no rule at all.

The thing between it is selectively allowing some to do it and some not.

ClockworkRed wrote:

Honestly, there must be something between zero-tolerance and punishments that piss people of that they say good-bye to a server they played on for a long time and no rule at all.

There is, the rules are not all black and white. Gifting other characters is perfectly acceptable on Amia when done within reason. I get people asking me about it all the time, and I'll gladly help them transfer the items safely.

With muling, though, it has to be zero tolerance. Same with epic buddies kitting out lowbies in full Abyss/Gauntlet gear and stacks of Summon IX scrolls. That's obscene.

Partial stripping? Or something like a proportional punishment.

Full strip of a years-old character does seem rather harsh when he only gave a lowbie friend a ring.

ticket wrote:

Partial stripping?

Full strip of a years-old character does seem rather harsh when he only gave a lowbie friend a ring.

Who decides what gets stripped?

ticket wrote:

Partial stripping? Or something like a proportional punishment.

Full strip of a years-old character does seem rather harsh when he only gave a lowbie friend a ring.

Which would classify as an acceptable gift.

But when you give rings, belts, armours, cloaks, boots, the whole nice yards... then we're talking of twinking.

A jury of his peers. :lol:

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Edit: If I remember correctly, one epic guy got fully stripped for gifting a ring that costs more than 20k. An Uthgar ring I think. I only heard from his side though so I'm not 100% sure. Sorry for the specific event.

Anyways, the 20k rule under level 20 clause is very flaky.

The 20k is above all a guideline for players to be careful. DMs tend to look at it in context.

I'm not gonna comment anything on a one-sided story of a case I don't recognise even, for obvious reasons.

I agree that our muling/twinking rules are draconic, and I've brought it up many times. However, as long as they apply, punishment should be equal to everyone. It's not just a matter of ideology, but also a pragmatic approach: servers with an unfair staff, rules, or otherwise just rampant injustice, don't get very far. I am sure we'd lose a good deal of players if we started favoring old/good players to keep them around. Justice is something almost every feels very strongly about.

Nah. Unfariness is definitely not the way to go. That said, common sense should apply too for the application of rules. 20k gold under 20 or 25 is just absurd.

A loot you find from the +4 bin can be sold for that amount. Its either no gifting at all or simply no twinking within one own's PCs. Im sure this warrants a topic in the DM forums on its own but "gifting" can be pretty IC. plus the fact that unlike DMs showing favourtism, where an item in question can be absurd in powerlevels, a player gifting to another one can only ever gift an item that

#1 is within the module
#2 other PCs can go farm/buy themselves.
#3 other PCs can join a faction to equip themselves e.g. (adventurer's guild)

Just as bias-ness is a sure fire way to irk a player, so are rules that make no sense imho.

Addendum: ive yet to hear people complain about player A gifting player B some epic phatz actually.

Im just curious whats the main reason for the rules with regards to gifting anyways? It'll remove the danger from levelling at lower levels? A level 2 fighter being equiped with an epic wonderforged?

The General Draw of epic gifting is that its an easy way to Power-Faction.

I'll use you and Darth as an example.

With your epically huge amounts of epic (yes i know you guys did the work to get them) without the twinking rule, you may aswell change Amia Islands name to Amia: Banites. Your draw isn't your RP, its your items, which makes little sense on an RP server.

I'm actually quite against the rule that you cant give beginners gold or items if your character would do so ic. Being in a group gives you benefits, for instance ic if you become a novice of the Eternal Order you are given the best gear you could use at that level. If you join the Triadic Knights, I am sure as a squire your lord would make sure to care for you as well.

Same way I do not like the "you get 1xp if you hunt with someone 6+ levels lower". Again, if a novice of the EO would get trained by a higher member he should be able to actually learn something, not having to run around with others to do so as his true mentor seems to be unable to do so. Same goes if you have an apprentice and a high ranking wiz, he again cant get up levels from being taught by him.

Phearnun wrote:

Same way I do not like the "you get 1xp if you hunt with someone 6+ levels lower". Again, if a novice of the EO would get trained by a higher member he should be able to actually learn something, not having to run around with others to do so as his true mentor seems to be unable to do so. Same goes if you have an apprentice and a high ranking wiz, he again cant get up levels from being taught by him.

Well for that I'd suggest this: it takes the level of the highest characters into account, that way lowbies don't lower the party level when with epics, and the lowbies can't learn anything from their mentors lazily slicing through armies of creatures that provide no challenge.

The trick is, that you can give items to others, within reason. Just check with a DM and it's fine.

That's all there is to it, really. Takes a few minutes of time, some nice RP and maybe you'll even get a DC for rewarding your younger members with something nice they deserved.

It's a bit of a strawman to say "I can't give gifts because of this rule", but also quite incorrect. Because you can.

MoshingChris wrote:

The General Draw of epic gifting is that its an easy way to Power-Faction.

I'll use you and Darth as an example.

With your epically huge amounts of epic (yes i know you guys did the work to get them) without the twinking rule, you may aswell change Amia Islands name to Amia: Banites. Your draw isn't your RP, its your items, which makes little sense on an RP server.

Haha, I wouldnt be so silly as to give away epic loot to entice members! More likely then not, people will join, take a swipe then leave. Nothing is going to be achieved as a result and I'll be poorer! Still think its RP that will make things last longer.

I actually like the idea of a new players joining a guild/faction and having an easier time levelling actually. Like joining a faction etc. so long as its all done ICly. being shown around etc.

An adventurer's guild or like phaerun's example, a squire of the EO or perhaps, a devout of Bane. It ideally makes the server richer.

The 'within 6 levels' rule is a nice point to debate on actually. Ideally, it encourages more mingling between the server base. the lower levels and higher levels. mentor and student etc.

"Hey, you're my OOC friend, take this stuff for no IC reason."
That's the problem that starts occurring. If you want to give good stuff, get a DM to supervise the RP and if it's reasonable they'll likely let you.

There's never been a case when I said "No, that's too much!". Not even when it was quite nice gear for a lowbie. There was a good reason and RP involved, and it wasn't obscene like a full Abyss kit, and that's all that matters. We just wanna be in the know, that obscene amounts of epic gear doesn't end up on lowbies without an IC reason.

Could of course be, that players who notify us already think about what's reasonable and what's not.

Twinking within reason, within factions and with a proper long term RP goal, or RP background needs to be looked at objectively sure.

But

Twinking in an OOC fashion between two characters who otherwise would have nothing to do with each other. I say ballz to that.

MoshingChris wrote:

Twinking within reason, within factions and with a proper long term RP goal, or RP background needs to be looked at objectively sure.

But

Twinking in an OOC fashion between two characters who otherwise would have nothing to do with each other. I say ballz to that.

Which is why the rule is in place i think. Without the rule it would get abused.

Jas wrote:

Haha, I wouldnt be so silly as to give away epic loot to entice members! More likely then not, people will join, take a swipe then leave. Nothing is going to be achieved as a result and I'll be poorer! Still think its RP that will make things last longer.

Absolutely agreed. Interestingly, it seems that a little bit of RP/work will dissuade a lot of people from joining a faction. Although the Temple of Sharess is hardly a good example of a faction, I've only admitted two players to it since I started requiring that they compose a prayer to the goddess and answer some questions about the religion (and, while they were good players, they've since left the server). In fact, the two longest-standing Sharessin still haven't done so. And you only get a near-useless ring for it, too!

The only place the muling rules have bothered me so far is with playing members of the same family. Obviously, you cant hand down all your equipment from one PC to another in a will, especially if only two months pass between generations, but 20K for carts/boats/food/drink does run out if you play a non-adventuring character for any length of time. Still, I expect this could be dealt with in a request to a DM. Did I see somewhere that playing members of the same family was discouraged?

Twank and twunk sound like proper insults. Must start using these in RP. Thanks Disco!

My big problem with muling? It's OOC nonsense. Drop a bunch of great stuff in like, the library or something suddenly your lvl 2 wandering into the library and sees a load of gear that would fit them perfectly, not to mention a pile of gold.

Twinking, I'm in Chris's corner.

The twinking rule is the only thing that keeps lowbies and newbies from an economy that's grown out of proportion. I'm not saying whether that's a good or a bad thing, but the point for me is:

There is a rule. It's not a very invasive rule either. If you break the rule, not only does it tell something about your character in general, but you deserve everything that's coming at you.

I'm against gifting and muling. You're supposed to work for what you have. The reason that so many people are even in the position to gift other people silly amounts of money and items is because of aforementioned economy problem.

Mind that I draw a clear distinction between twinking and muling. I think the latter should get you a smackdown, because it's the only way to stop it: if there's no serious risk to it, there's no reason not to do it. If the worst thing that'll happen is you losing the stuff you tried to mule, the net gain is zero. I agree with this reasoning (though it isn't originally my own).

I don't personally have strong feelings against twinking, on the other hand. If there's any RP involved, I don't really care. I can sympathize with innocent mistakes, at least.

Come on, guys. Where are the revolutionists inside you? Rules are there to be broken if it is fun.

ClockworkRed wrote:

Come on, guys. Where are the revolutionists inside you? Rules are there to be broken if it is fun.

*Iron's Personal Stamp of Dubious Off-The-Record Non-DM Approval*

If you do it on Amia, I'll have to hunt you down, but I appreciate the sentiment nonetheless.

I personally don't like muling or twinking. Both annoy the hell out of me because of the OOCness of the former, and the potential for unfairness in the latter. That said, I do think a 20k limit on gifts is a bit low.

But, for the time being, if you have an OOC/IC friend you really want to help, instead of giving them gold or loot, maybe give them something that'll help them help themselves: buff the crap out of them, and tell them where there's some decent xp for their level.

Don't trust Gers.

Irredeemable Caster Jock!

ITT: I remind the DMs that the 20k gift limit was abolished and is even in the changed rules and has been that way for quite some time, and was in fact one of the very first rules I wrote up when Disco said "Here's this fancy webtool application for the rules, go write some.". I'll also remind you that you all agreed with me, and a bunch of you plain didn't comment. No giving items more than 2 levels over the character's current level. This provides a sliding scale of useage (unlike the 20k cap) and naturally caps out when characters hit low epic since our highest item use levels are 20-22.

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Re: Muling/Twinking. Does it "hurt you"? No. Debatably. Is it unfair? Yes. We are an RP server. Everything should be earned ICly and on as even a level as possible. Let's use a classic Ruce analogy, the one that states: Can a newbie logged fresh into Amia do this?

A newbie logged fresh into Amia doesn't have 3 level 30's to leech off of. No, he can't. So neither do you. Is it that hard to gear up a character pn your own that you have to cheat to do it?

I see no explanation from Mago about why it is the most poorly written thing ever though I have my own personal feelings about why he thinks that.

I would sooner play on an empty server than a server that allows people to cheat to get ahead. You say it doesn't hurt you, but it does, giving these characters an unfair advantage simply by who they know OOCly and what charaters they've made before.

I'm afraid it's still needing to be fixed in one place at least:

R&L Forum: Main Rules: Twinking wrote:

Twinking constitutes as follows: giving another player items or gold that they did not deserve. Gifts can be maximum 20.000 gold in worth, and you cannot give those 20.000 gp gifts too often or it'll be considered twinking. Best to keep it to about one per month. You may ask a DM if a gift is acceptable, if there's a dire need to give a gift to someone more often. Characters above level 25 are except to the cost limit, and may recieve gifts more valuable than 20.000 gp. They may not give such gifts to characters below level 25, however.

Twink, twank, twunk!

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