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A Shrine for Asmodeus.
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Author:  Burgo [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 12:26 PM ]
Post subject:  A Shrine for Asmodeus.

I was wondering, if there is a shrine for Asmodeus? As there is one for Mephistoteles, I should think that Asmodeus, whose cult is far bigger than meph's, deserves one too.

Author:  Kjetta [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 12:39 PM ]
Post subject: 

Find out ICly, fix ICly, work ICly, play the game! Do the stuff!

Also, eventhough Amia is set in the Forgotten Realms, we have no goal of being a mini verison of the Forgotten Realms, reflecting everything that exists in the Forgotten Realms in perfect proportion with the big picture. Amia features places set in the Forgotten Realms. That's it. No entity or faction "deserves" anything just because they have a large cult or following elsewhere.

I am getting very sick and tired of these arguements that are based on the premise that Amia should include everything that exits in the Forgotten Realms. If we try to be everything, we end up being watered out to nothing.

PS. If you mean "Idol", and not "Shrine", then you're on to something, as the idol system is at least half-OOC.

Author:  Nekhy [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 12:45 PM ]
Post subject: 

If it's not on the list of idols, then it isn't in the module but can be added. That's been ze policy with the idols.

And I assume you mean idols.

Author:  Burgo [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 12:45 PM ]
Post subject: 

Uh Oh...Didn't mean to get you all peeved... Was just asking... Sorry, won't happen again. *Looks very confused*

Author:  Kjetta [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 12:46 PM ]
Post subject: 

Not peeved at all. Carry on!

Author:  Nekhy [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 12:55 PM ]
Post subject: 

I guess it was a random expression of irritation at a general unrealistic demand to include everything on Amia, vaguely related to this question because of the slightly incorrect but understandable terminology used.

Or maybe he just ran out of dried cod. That's known to make even the somewhat sensible Norwegians crack and get their viking axes out before going on a rampage.

Author:  Kjetta [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 13:52 PM ]
Post subject: 

Nekhy wrote:
I guess it was a random expression of irritation at a general unrealistic demand to include everything on Amia, vaguely related to this question because of the slightly incorrect but understandable terminology used.

Or maybe he just ran out of dried cod. That's known to make even the somewhat sensible Norwegians crack and get their viking axes out before going on a rampage.


A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B.

Author:  Burgo [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:12 PM ]
Post subject: 

and it wasn't a request, simple ooc question about the world. If it would have been a request I would have placed it in the request section.

Author:  Azrael [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:15 PM ]
Post subject: 

Burgo wrote:
and it wasn't a request, simple ooc question about the world. If it would have been a request I would have placed it in the request section.


It's a discussion if there is one for Asmodeus, it's a request for one if there isn't.

Round and round the wheel spins.

Snapy!

Edit:

"Abbathor NE CE LE NE NN Earth Evil Trickery
Aerdrie faenya CG CG CN NG Air Animal Good
Akadi NN CN LN NE NG NN Air Travel Trickery
Angharradh CG CG CN NG Good Knowledge Plant Protection
Anhur CG CG CN NG Good Strength War
Arvoreen LG LG LN NG Good Protection War
Auril NE CE LE NE Air Evil Water
Azuth LN LE LG LN NN Knowledge Magic Travel
Bahamut LG LG LN NG Air Good Protection "

Woops not on the public list of deities.

Guess it's a request.

Cheers!

Burgo wrote:
I should think that Asmodeus, whose cult is far bigger than meph's, deserves one too.

Author:  Burgo [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:23 PM ]
Post subject: 

Probably not on the public lists of deities, 'cause Asmodeus isn't a god? He is merely worshipped by some cults, and devils and devilkin. Also, there is no need for moving this as it wasn't a request in the first place, I was just wondering if there was, as he is the one devil whose cult is the biggest and has most followers through out the faerun. I am not requesting one if there isn't.

Author:  Azrael [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:25 PM ]
Post subject: 

Burgo wrote:
Probably not on the public lists of deities, 'cause Asmodeus isn't a god? He is merely worshipped by some cults, and devils and devilkin.


Not a god demi-god or diety otherwise...how does he fit into the deity system and grant powers to his clerics? O.o

Author:  Burgo [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:29 PM ]
Post subject: 

"Finally, Asmodeus wages war against the demons. He sees
the untold legions as a direct threat to his supremacy. Until
he can wipe them out, he will never achieve that which he
most desperately covets: godhood.

On the Material Plane, Asmodeus has more cultists than all
the other archdevils combined. Mortals who worship devils
actually draw power from Asmodeus. He influences all levels
of society and has followers of nearly every race, even within
the strongest bastions for good. His path is the way to great
and unattainable power, so his clerics are mighty men and
women with infl uence and personal magnetism that makes
them natural leaders among their kind."

- From 3,5 Fiendish Codex II, Tyrants of The Nine Hells

Author:  Azrael [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:34 PM ]
Post subject: 

So the 'real' question is(are):

Should powerful devils/demons who have masses of followers be allowed on the list of Deities as 'gods' even when technically they are not gods?
Do we need a separate function on the deity system to include the powers granted to mortals by devils/demons?
Can the Clerics of devils/demons who are not gods be granted powers by the non-god devils/demons they follow?

...and saying he 'should' have an idol indicates a policy change. Indicates a request for a change. "This should be that." Is always implying change.

Now we actually have a discussion to be had. *clap clap*

Author:  Dakotaen [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:38 PM ]
Post subject: 

Uh, not demons. Arch devils. More like The Arch Devil. Lord of the Ninth. Has the largest following of the nine. :D

I'd say he's badass enough to deserve his own idol, assuming he has a following on Amia.

EDIT: Oh, and if he's to be made, he's LE, so I guess he'd grant bonuses to LE, NE and LN. No idea about domains, though.

Author:  Burgo [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:44 PM ]
Post subject: 

Indeed, this turned into discussion, but I don't mind =) I am not playing a cleric who is his follower anyway =)

Author:  Dakotaen [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:50 PM ]
Post subject: 

Well you ought to, he's awesomesauce!

Oh, and it says in Book of Vile Darkness that he's able to cast spells as a 20th level cleric with the Diabolic and Evil domains. So I suppose Evil and something else would be his domains.

EDIT: Oh wait.. Joy, I should've read on before writing. :lol: Diabolic, Evil and Law. Those are the domains of his cleri-... Wait, NWN only has Evil of those three, right? Right, I'll go away now.

Author:  Azrael [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:50 PM ]
Post subject: 

Ok is Mephistoteles, who is already on the list, technically considered a god?

If he isn't then non-gods with lots of followers make the list and all questions above answered. Then the D&D's version of the Devil gets his idol.

Edit: I do agree with Kjetta in principle...'lord of the hells' however is quite a major one.

Author:  Burgo [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:50 PM ]
Post subject: 

Yes he is, I am playing one of his, Asmodeus's, followers, but he is not a cleric...He is something else ;)

Author:  Burgo [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:51 PM ]
Post subject: 

No arch-devils are gods. Just like no Demon Lords are gods either.

Author:  Dakotaen [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:57 PM ]
Post subject: 

Book of Vile Darkness p. 123 wrote:
ARCHFIENDS AND CLERICS
The demon lords and archdevils described in this
chapter cannot grant spells to clerics. Instead, they
act as patrons for clerics who devote themselves to
abstract sources of divine power, and they assist the
clerics of evil gods. They have worshipers who perform
sacrifices in their name, but they don’t run
organized religions the way gods do.


There, in writing. :wink:

Author:  IronAngel [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 14:57 PM ]
Post subject: 

Powerful fiends are capable of granting divine spells, but they are not gods. They are part of the Amian Deity System, though, because... well, they grant spells.

And no, Azrael: he doesn't get an idol just because of that, if there's no one who wants to bind to him. It's not our aim to include every potential divine being in Realmspace to the Deity System, only those that are actually requested and would be used.

EDIT: Book of Vile Darkness is not a Forgotten Realms product. The above quote is incorrect. Page 6 of Faiths and Pantheons describes worshiping fiends in the Realms.

Author:  Azrael [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 15:04 PM ]
Post subject: 

Dakotaen wrote:
The Arch Devil. Lord of the Ninth. Has the largest following of the nine. :D


The 'Devil' doesn't get an Idol? ...can we take away some dead minor demon/devil idols then to make room for the biggest of them all?

IronAngel wrote:
...if there's no one who wants to bind to him. It's not our aim to include every potential divine being in Realmspace to the Deity System, only those that are actually requested and would be used.


I agree with that.

Burgo wrote:
Yes he is, I am playing one of his, Asmodeus's, followers, but he is not a cleric...He is something else ;)


Looks like a person who wants to bind.

"Edit: I do agree with Kjetta in principle...'lord of the hells' however is quite a major one."

Author:  IronAngel [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 15:11 PM ]
Post subject: 

Well, there's no problem adding an idol if Burgo requests for one, in the Things to Change topic, providing Disco with Asmodeus's worshiper alignments, domains and "dogma." He seems pretty intent on not requesting anything, though. :D Not something we need to worry about.

Author:  Azrael [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 15:21 PM ]
Post subject: 

Burgo that was the green light. It's all yours now, submit the request to Disco with all that Iron said above, and go IC gathering followers and spreading the good 'bad' word. :P

Hope it turns out to be a lot of fun. 'Cultists' sounds catchy. Best of luck.

Fun hint: Break out the soul contracts and promises for power. Backed by the power of the strongest devil in existence. :twisted:

Author:  Kjetta [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 15:25 PM ]
Post subject: 

Azrael wrote:
"Edit: I do agree with Kjetta in principle...'lord of the hells' however is quite a major one."


I don't mind adding whatever Idol, because the Idol system is mostly OOC. What I am adamantly against is adding more IC stuff, like NPCs or areas, just becasue whatever god, entity, race or faction is "major". If we allow this criteria to govern the developement of Amia, we'll be stuck with the most cliché possible Forgotten Realms server.

No, we should focus on Amia as a place set in the Forgotten Realms setting, rather than a server attemptng to reflect the entirety of the Forgotten Realms, or the most "major" aspects of it.

Not every subrace or race should have a "starting city" for instance. Some should just endure being exotic, strange visitors, far from home.

Author:  Azrael [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 15:34 PM ]
Post subject: 

(the above posts were in support of the Idol specifically, not anything extra)

I was under the assumption that there was a required amount of players to:

A. Start a faction

which means..

B. To create a faction area + Npc's it would have to 'be' an Amia faction of decent size.

..therefore no useless areas of nothing are created..?

..course I could be wrong.

Author:  Dakotaen [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 15:37 PM ]
Post subject: 

IronAngel wrote:
Powerful fiends are capable of granting divine spells, but they are not gods. They are part of the Amian Deity System, though, because... well, they grant spells.

And no, Azrael: he doesn't get an idol just because of that, if there's no one who wants to bind to him. It's not our aim to include every potential divine being in Realmspace to the Deity System, only those that are actually requested and would be used.

EDIT: Book of Vile Darkness is not a Forgotten Realms product. The above quote is incorrect. Page 6 of Faiths and Pantheons describes worshiping fiends in the Realms.


Damn you, Finnmonkey of teh 1337 Lore, I stand corrected. :D

Author:  Lally [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 15:39 PM ]
Post subject: 

Anything involving the hells gets a thumbs up from me. Would be lovely to see a few proper followers of the hells wandering around selling their souls and just being horribly manipulative and evil.

Author:  Valve [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 15:40 PM ]
Post subject: 

I have a character who would follow

Author:  IronAngel [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 16:05 PM ]
Post subject: 

Lalelilolu wrote:
Anything involving the hells gets a thumbs up from me. Would be lovely to see a few proper followers of the hells wandering around selling their souls and just being horribly manipulative and evil.


*Takes away your Badge of Originality*

Author:  Azrael [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 16:12 PM ]
Post subject: 

IronAngel wrote:
Lalelilolu wrote:
Anything involving the hells gets a thumbs up from me. Would be lovely to see a few proper followers of the hells wandering around selling their souls and just being horribly manipulative and evil.


*Takes away your Badge of Originality*


...may as well take it from the guys who write D&D lore too..I mean..they just got done copying (and copy writing) almost the entire Egyptian pantheon no? ..and that's only 'one' example. :wink:

Author:  TheNamelessUnknown1 [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 16:12 PM ]
Post subject: 

Nekhy wrote:
If it's not on the list of idols, then it isn't in the module but can be added. That's been ze policy with the idols.

And I assume you mean idols.



Ive found an idol actually, that isnt on the list of idols, but if you select to worship this idol you receive them as a diety. Mayhaps there are more of them out there, that arent on the list?

Author:  Nekhy [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 16:16 PM ]
Post subject: 

TheNamelessUnknown1 wrote:
Ive found an idol actually, that isnt on the list of idols, but if you select to worship this idol you receive them as a diety. Mayhaps there are more of them out there, that arent on the list?


That's an error in the list. The idea is, that you don't need to find an idol to worship, but can also choose the deity at creation. The idols are for picking a deity at a later point.

Author:  Burgo [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 16:16 PM ]
Post subject: 

A real cult sounds good, for Asmodeus, but Xir isn't the kind who advertizes openly that he follows the Prince of Darkness. SO it'd be hard to find others like minded. Also, everywhere other than certain lawful evil nations, the cults are fairly covert, and underground stuff. It is mostly based around individuals, not large amount of people.

Author:  Dakotaen [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 16:51 PM ]
Post subject: 

For arranging stuff like this, in my mind it's alright to make use of OOC contact. Secrecy is a must for certain factions and cults, and with timezones and playtime in mind, there's often few to no other ways of getting in touch with other worshippers of X (in this case, Asmodeus) God/Devil/Fiend/Whatever.

Author:  Dev Disco [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 17:00 PM ]
Post subject: 

As far as my info goes (the Book of Vile Darkness) Asmodeus doesn't have a real cult in the material plane. There's nobody down here who actually knows he exists. That's the reason why I took Meph, who is far more into gathering mortal groupies.

Author:  Lally [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 17:30 PM ]
Post subject: 

IronAngel wrote:
Lalelilolu wrote:
Anything involving the hells gets a thumbs up from me. Would be lovely to see a few proper followers of the hells wandering around selling their souls and just being horribly manipulative and evil.


*Takes away your Badge of Originality*


*Takes away your sense of humor*


Oh wait....



*runs*

Author:  IronAngel [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 18:10 PM ]
Post subject: 

I feel no different.

Author:  HellScourge [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 18:58 PM ]
Post subject: 

Iron sold his humour so he can be that snarky!

Oh, and there is a idol of Graz'zt too, and he is far more badass than Mephistopheles. *sagenod*

Author:  Burgo [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 19:05 PM ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
As far as my info goes (the Book of Vile Darkness) Asmodeus doesn't have a real cult in the material plane. There's nobody down here who actually knows he exists. That's the reason why I took Meph, who is far more into gathering mortal groupies.


I disagree strongly on this notion, but as you are a dm your word goes of course. I just want to point you towards a book called DnD Fiendix Codex II - Tyrants of the Nine Hells.

Quotation from said book:

Asmodeus is the undisputed master of the
Nine Hells, commanding fear and respect
from all those who occupy his realm. Even
the gods who dwell in the Nine Hells give
Asmodeus his proper due. Though the
archdevils might work to usurp him, few
have the courage to act in the open.
Asmodeus’s machinations are long
in the making, and they might take centuries,
if not millennia, to see resolution.
He works on a grand scale, carefully
constructing insidious and inexplicable
intrigues, maneuvering the forces of wickedness
like chess pieces on a board that
encompasses all the planes.
His core concerns are simple. First,
he wants the power structure currently
in place to remain exactly as it stands
now, with him in charge. He has spies
on every layer, plants in every court. No
fi end knows for sure which of its minions
actually serve Asmodeus, so the climate
is one of justifi ed paranoia.
Asmodeus also expands evil. He directly
opposes celestials and good-aligned
deities. His minions combat the agents of
the Upper Planes, murdering them whenever and wherever
they can.
Finally, Asmodeus wages war against the demons. He sees
the untold legions as a direct threat to his supremacy. Until
he can wipe them out, he will never achieve that which he
most desperately covets: godhood.
Asmodeus is aware of every plot hatched against him.
Older than the oldest archdevil, he has watched the rise and
fall of other archdevils far craftier than any of Asmodeus’s
contemporaries. He keeps to himself, letting his minions stew
in fear of what he will do next. Of course, few have forgotten
that Asmodeus emerged unscathed in the Reckoning, proving
to all that he is their better.
On the Material Plane, Asmodeus has more cultists than all
the other archdevils combined. Mortals who worship devils
actually draw power from Asmodeus. He infl uences all levels
of society and has followers of nearly every race, even within
the strongest bastions for good. His path is the way to great
and unattainable power, so his clerics are mighty men and
women with infl uence and personal magnetism that makes
them natural leaders among their kind.

Author:  Dev Disco [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 19:24 PM ]
Post subject: 

Hurray for WotC to publish two completely opposite versions.

Author:  Lally [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 19:27 PM ]
Post subject: 

Iron has a fabulous sense of humor, he just hides it from everyone. Kind of like Tormak does with that amazing hourglass figure.

Author:  Herr Delta Houdini [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 19:42 PM ]
Post subject: 

Azrael wrote:
IronAngel wrote:
Lalelilolu wrote:
Anything involving the hells gets a thumbs up from me. Would be lovely to see a few proper followers of the hells wandering around selling their souls and just being horribly manipulative and evil.


*Takes away your Badge of Originality*


...may as well take it from the guys who write D&D lore too..I mean..they just got done copying (and copy writing) almost the entire Egyptian pantheon no? ..and that's only 'one' example. :wink:


It is Egyptian. I don't blame them for wanting to copy such greatness.

Author:  Dakotaen [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 20:26 PM ]
Post subject: 

HellScourge wrote:
Oh, and there is a idol of Graz'zt too, and he is far more badass than Mephistopheles. *sagenod*


This is trufax! However Graz'zt is also far more demonic. :wink:

Author:  Wyjyn [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 20:28 PM ]
Post subject: 

Kjetta wrote:
Azrael wrote:
"Edit: I do agree with Kjetta in principle...'lord of the hells' however is quite a major one."


I don't mind adding whatever Idol, because the Idol system is mostly OOC. What I am adamantly against is adding more IC stuff, like NPCs or areas, just becasue whatever god, entity, race or faction is "major". If we allow this criteria to govern the developement of Amia, we'll be stuck with the most cliché possible Forgotten Realms server.

No, we should focus on Amia as a place set in the Forgotten Realms setting, rather than a server attemptng to reflect the entirety of the Forgotten Realms, or the most "major" aspects of it.

Not every subrace or race should have a "starting city" for instance. Some should just endure being exotic, strange visitors, far from home.


Kjetta, there is a portal from near the trackless sea to the middle of Khem. Amia's geography makes no sense already, seriously.

Author:  Kjetta [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 20:33 PM ]
Post subject: 

Portals are magical! Got nothing to do with geography, at least.

And even if there are certain parts of Amia that doesn't make sense, I am not prepared to go: "oh, the car's already scratched, let's just wreck it!"

Author:  Nekhy [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 20:34 PM ]
Post subject: 

Wyjyn wrote:
Kjetta, there is a portal from near the trackless sea to the middle of Khem. Amia's geography makes no sense already, seriously.


This correction of geography makes far more sense than the previous setup, though.

And just because there's some silly things that can't be really fixed in a proper way (read: undoing from the history of Amia), doesn't mean more should be added.

That's like a mantra of mine... "One fuck up doesn't justify 10 more fuck ups!"

Author:  Dev Disco [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 20:47 PM ]
Post subject: 

Amia's geography makes a lot of sense. I make damn sure it does, stupid geography is a horror to me.

Author:  Wyjyn [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 20:49 PM ]
Post subject: 

Yeah, but it does render the argument against it fairly moot really. Come on, a portal to Khem is like waking up in England and being in Beirut five minutes later. Why does lord wiltun even have a portal to Khem on the roof of his keep!? Seems like a bad idea for security personally. Nothing so bad about it, but at the same time not sure its fair to shoot down another idea for being somewhat eclectic given the standard already set.

Author:  Nekhy [ Tue, Oct 13 2009, 20:53 PM ]
Post subject: 

I maintain, that it is unnecessary to smash the car because of a few scratches. To quote Kjetta instead of myself for once.

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