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Monks and thieves
https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42071		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  QPR [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 13:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Monks and thieves
One question that has gnawed at me lately is quite simple: Can monk be thieves? Reason im wondering this is that the monk class does look liek a good class for it: it focuses on diciplin, mental abilities and extrodinary physical abilities, all suited for a sucessfull thief. What complicates my argument is the Lawful requirement, and when it comes to monk Im unsure just what the aligment actually implies.

Does lawful mean a respect for authorities and laws, or just a strict personal code, or does it represents the monks diciplin in training? And would FR monk lore allow monk to be thieves to start with, or does that go against some monk dogma Im not aware of?
Author:  AlphaWaves [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 13:35 PM ]
Post subject: 
Monks can be thieves, if it's part of their own personal regimen (hence the lawful part).
If, you're stealing at random, or being an opportunist, that implies more of a chaotic standpoint.
Thieving from a particular type of person, or on set ritualistic nights, for example, leans more towards "law" .. not in the sense of, say, Cordorian Law, but in personality and alignment sense,

There is a Mask monk order, for example.

Quote:
Mask - Order of Shadows (LE)

- These monks are excellent at sneaking as well as making business deals. There are not many in this order and they are very reluctant to train new recruits especially those that hold a very high place in other guild ranks.
- Can multiclass as Rogue, Shadowdancer, and or Guild Thief. Monk level must be at least 2 levels higher than both combined. Can use Sneak Attack with the Flurry of Blows ability but takes a -1 penalty to AC during the next round.

~ from Candlekeep.com
Author:  Yurell [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 17:01 PM ]
Post subject: 
Monks can be thieves AFAIK, so long as you're careful with your alignment.
Author:  IronAngel [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 17:27 PM ]
Post subject: 
The above posters are correct, but I wouldn't be so careful about it. I encourage you to go crazy with your "alignment." Be an independent, creative, brilliant force of art and entertainment, laugh in the face of resistance and prove all reservations dead wrong!

Yes, monks can be thieves, rogues, or anything that isn't mechanically Chaotic. Lawful can mean anything you can justify well enough. The only two limits are your imagination, and the judgement of the DMs. And we're pretty smart, overall. So if you come up with a monk discipline, a personal code or a background that believably explains your monk's unusual choice of career, that's more than fine.

Don't take this as an excuse to be lazy and lame; and I have faith that you won't. My point is, talent and excellence know no limits.
Author:  QPR [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 21:07 PM ]
Post subject: 
To get stuff cleared up: What is mechanically Chaotic?
Author:  Gravemaskin [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 21:09 PM ]
Post subject: 
QPR wrote:
To get stuff cleared up: What is mechanically Chaotic?

Barbarians, Spells with (Chaos) descriptor.. etc etc.
Author:  IronAngel [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 21:48 PM ]
Post subject: 
What he said. Bards, too. Anything that says "Chaotic" on the alignment sheet. You don't actually have to worry about that, because NWN does it for you: you can't multiclass Bard/Monk or Barbarian/Monk (which I hate, because I have perfectly sensible, interesting concepts for both in mind).

Rule of Thumb in regards to builds/character combinations: if NWN lets you do it and Glaring Obvious Common Sense doesn't completely destroy it, Amia lets you do it. The only exception that might not be common sense to everyone is, of course, divine casters: you must have a deity, and you must somewhat follow the tenets of said deity.

That's not to say you should do everything that you're technically allowed to. We give players that freedom because we trust them to be responsible with it. But if you have a good idea, by all means go for it. I hate servers and people who impose unnecessary blanket rules on character concepts based on their narrow, subjective perspective.
Author:  555444333 [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 21:51 PM ]
Post subject: 
Iron. Simply request an alignment change?
Author:  IronAngel [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 21:53 PM ]
Post subject: 
Huh?

Not sure what you mean, or if you're just spamming as usual! Anyway, we may do out-of-class alignment changes at max level, if it's really well justified. We rarely do, but we're rarely asked. We've made the decision not to do them beforehand, because we don't want to enable unusual class combinations. It's an easy, clear line for everyone, so we don't have to have that debate with every case that comes up. Sure, Bard 16/Monk 14 might not be bad, but what about that Bard/Paladin etc.
Author:  Yurell [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 21:54 PM ]
Post subject: 
555444333 wrote:
Iron. Simply request an alignment change?


I don't think they do that so that you can combine classes in that manner.

Also, when I said to be careful Iron, I meant that make sure you can justify your actions in regard t your alignment - you may RP your character, not your alignment, but one still has to make sure one doesn't stray to far from one's class.
Author:  555444333 [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 22:03 PM ]
Post subject: 
If I had a good sensible RP concept which worked for a Monk/barb as you described Iron, I'd make a request for the change at the requisite point in time to allow the mix.
Author:  IronAngel [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 22:03 PM ]
Post subject: 
Oh, I know and I agree, Yurell. That's an excellent way to put it: "to make sure one doesn't stray to far from one's class." That's exactly what I think should be paid attention to (if you intend to RP your class as the class it is, and not as a similar PrC or whatever). Not alignment itself, but how your behaviour is justified within the context of your life, beliefs, profession and culture. Metaphysical musings of whether thieving or lying is actually Chaotic are irrelevant, it's much more important to get into your character's head and try to understand why a monk, having adopted a certain discipline and philosophy, would choose to steal, or not to steal.

I just want to encourage and inspire. Role-playing is about passion and fiery creativity. There's often a discouraging, or at least wary and conservative undercurrent to the advice people tend to give about these matters. I want some lively rhetorics, controversy and daring confidence, to remind it's our imagination we're expressing here - irrespective of facts.
Author:  IronAngel [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 22:05 PM ]
Post subject: 
555444333 wrote:
If I had a good sensible RP concept which worked for a Monk/barb as you described Iron, I'd make a request for the change at the requisite point in time to allow the mix.


Yeah. That would be the way to go about it. As our current policy stands, we've decided to outright deny any and all such requests because of potential balance problems and the famous can of worms. Nothing's ever set in stone, but I wager it's unlikely to change.
Author:  Craig deathwalker [ Thu, Oct 08 2009, 22:40 PM ]
Post subject: 
IronAngel wrote:
Huh?

Not sure what you mean, or if you're just spamming as usual! Anyway, we may do out-of-class alignment changes at max level, if it's really well justified. We rarely do, but we're rarely asked. We've made the decision not to do them beforehand, because we don't want to enable unusual class combinations. It's an easy, clear line for everyone, so we don't have to have that debate with every case that comes up. Sure, Bard 16/Monk 14 might not be bad, but what about that Bard/Paladin etc.


think you mean pal bard pm! or a complete ab whore, pal bard rdd,
Author:  Gunz [ Fri, Oct 09 2009, 10:12 AM ]
Post subject: 
Aye, there's nothing wrong with a Monk that steals, imo. Surely, they would have a good reason though. I would still argue that stealing is chaotic, but, that doesn't matter. Lawful people are not immune from doing chaotic things and visa versa. People, after all, aren't perfect, not even a Monk.

QPR wrote:
Does lawful mean a respect for authorities and laws, or just a strict personal code, or does it represents the monks diciplin in training?


It could represent any and all of those things.
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Fri, Oct 09 2009, 11:44 AM ]
Post subject: 
Monks can be thieves according to PnP and Amia Rules, IMHO it's yuck and I wish it wouldn't be so to simply stiop powerbuilding, but you can do. So eh.
Author:  QPR [ Fri, Oct 09 2009, 12:32 PM ]
Post subject: 
Note: Im not talking about taking rogue or assassin levels, the intention is a straight, 30 monk. Is more wether he will take jobs like burglar, and break the law by stealing, for his own reasons.
Author:  Yurell [ Fri, Oct 09 2009, 12:35 PM ]
Post subject: 
QPR wrote:
Note: Im not talking about taking rogue or assassin levels, the intention is a straight, 30 monk. Is more wether he will take jobs like burglar, and break the law by stealing, for his own reasons.


Do you think you can justify it? If so, I encourage yo to go ahead - its a novel idea for a character, and I hope you have fun with it. If you can't, think carefully.
Author:  Falling Spider [ Fri, Oct 09 2009, 13:25 PM ]
Post subject: 
Being lawful doesn't have anything to do with the actual law, and there are canon monks of Mask.

I'd assume they steal.
Author:  Shrewd [ Wed, Oct 14 2009, 6:36 AM ]
Post subject: 
Monks of the Old Order typically multiclass as Rogue or Shadowdancers. A monk's lawfulness is generally seen as his firm belief structure and way of applying it to his environment. I'll comment a little more when I'm at home. :)
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