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Anything that your character believes is undead is undead. Anything he believes is not, isn't.

DMy OOC answer: SD shadows aren't undead, good aligned/neutral aligned death summons aren't undead, everything else that looks undead is.

Nope. They should be (read: probably are, and if aren't, that's a bug) undead.

And the SD shadows should be (read: are not, but IMO ought to) damaged by positive energy too. They are "extraplanar undead-type" if not undead in the classic, "once living" sense of the word. It makes no sense that they work like they do. Every other Shadow from the Plane of Shadow is undead and gets hurt by Heal.

Shadows from the shades/shadow conjuration spells has the same rules as the SD shadows right? Just making sure since that'd make sense.

I think it depends on your definition of undead and how technical you want to be.

Shadows are "undead like" because they are negative energy based lifeforms that reproduce by draining the life of positive energy based life-forms. They are also naturally occuring, on both the negative energy plane and the Shadow Plane, and virtually all other undead don't occur naturally.

I really can't fault -any- character for assuming they are all undead. Especially since undead destroying spells work on them.

Fey should have been classified as undead. That way I could have killed them and enjoyed it.

Summoning spells do just that what they say, summon them.

You cast summon Undead and you summon the nearest undead.
You cast summon animal and you summon the nearest animal.
You cast summon fiend and you summon the nearest fiend.
etc.
Once the spell is over they return to where they came, unharmed, and pissed of.

Could you explain the difference between the SD summon shadow and the Shade's spell shadow then?

Because I was under the same impression Terra was. And I'm a bit foggy on the "extra-planar undead" concept. Are they the risen souls of outsiders? Or are they just outsiders classified as undead... because I don't get how they could be "undead" and never lived/died either...

Author:	Daniel_Waynold [ Sun, Sep 27 2009, 20:06 PM ]
Post subject:	The Undead
I tried, I really tried, but I can't find a topic from this. What is undead? What are not? Are shadows undead? What spells you have (all please) that make undead summons? And is for example "Summoned Zombie" undead, tho it's owner even ooc:ly claims that it is just aspect of death, and not really undead, but just like any other summon YX creature.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Sun, Sep 27 2009, 20:07 PM ]
Post subject:
Anything that your character believes is undead is undead. Anything he believes is not, isn't. DMy OOC answer: SD shadows aren't undead, good aligned/neutral aligned death summons aren't undead, everything else that looks undead is.

Author:	Nekhy [ Sun, Sep 27 2009, 20:23 PM ]
Post subject:
TormakSaber wrote: Anything that your character believes is undead is undead. Anything he believes is not, isn't. Well, I'd reword the latter part. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck even if you don't believe it's a duck. But in general, yeah, go for what your character thinks. If someone says something isn't undead, and your character thinks it is... then you can act like it is undead.

Author:	QPR [ Sun, Sep 27 2009, 20:47 PM ]
Post subject:
Playing a superstisious PC is actually quite fun. Start calling all shapeshifting druids for "forest witches", and you will find yourself immensly amused. Trust me. As for undead, the answers has already been given. If a creature really is undead or not does not really matter if your PC think it is. It is after all your PC's beliefs that determines your PC's action, not your ooc knowledge about racial types in FR.

Author:	Terra_777 [ Sun, Sep 27 2009, 20:59 PM ]
Post subject:
TormakSaber wrote: DMy OOC answer: SD shadows aren't undead, good aligned/neutral aligned death summons aren't undead, everything else that looks undead is. Shadows from the shades/shadow conjuration spells has the same rules as the SD shadows right? Just making sure since that'd make sense.

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The Undead https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41832	Page 1 of 1

Author:	IronAngel [ Sun, Sep 27 2009, 21:05 PM ]
Post subject:
Nope. They should be (read: probably are, and if aren't, that's a bug) undead. And the SD shadows should be (read: are not, but IMO ought to) damaged by positive energy too. They are "extraplanar undead-type" if not undead in the classic, "once living" sense of the word. It makes no sense that they work like they do. Every other Shadow from the Plane of Shadow is undead and gets hurt by Heal.

Author:	Dark Immolation [ Sun, Sep 27 2009, 23:00 PM ]
Post subject:
IronAngel wrote: Nope. They should be (read: probably are, and if aren't, that's a bug) undead. And the SD shadows should be (read: are not, but IMO ought to) damaged by positive energy too. They are "extraplanar undead-type" if not undead in the classic, "once living" sense of the word. It makes no sense that they work like they do. Every other Shadow from the Plane of Shadow is undead and gets hurt by Heal. Could you explain the difference between the SD summon shadow and the Shade's spell shadow then? Because I was under the same impression Terra was. And I'm a bit foggy on the "extra-planar undead" concept. Are they the risen souls of outsiders? Or are they just outsiders classified as undead... because I don't get how they could be "undead" and never lived/died either...

Author:	Gunz [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 0:03 AM ]
Post subject:
Terra_777 wrote: Shadows from the shades/shadow conjuration spells has the same rules as the SD shadows right? Just making sure since that'd make sense. I too thought this was the case. It makes sense.

Author:	fjook [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 2:00 AM ]
Post subject:
So the only Shadow thats not Undead is the Shadow Dancer Shadow?

Author:	Drannok [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 3:43 AM ]
Post subject:
I think it depends on your definition of undead and how technical you want to be. Shadows are "undead like" because they are negative energy based lifeforms that reproduce by draining the life of positive energy based life-forms. They are also naturally occuring, on both the negative energy plane and the Shadow Plane, and virtually all other undead don't occur naturally. I really can't fault -any- character for assuming they are all undead. Especially since undead destroying spells work on them.

Author:	Daniel_Waynold [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 4:20 AM ]
Post subject:
So how do you define what is undead? I mean, as lore option. Summonning undead: Are they souls captured and raised via spell back to half-life or are they already somewhere and you just bring them to htta location, and thus not really be a necromantic?

Author:	Dark Immolation [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 5:58 AM ]
Post subject:
Drannok wrote: I think it depends on your definition of undead and how technical you want to be. Shadows are "undead like" because they are negative energy based lifeforms that reproduce by draining the life of positive energy based life-forms. They are also naturally occuring, on both the negative energy plane and the Shadow Plane, and virtually all other undead don't occur naturally. I really can't fault -any- character for assuming they are all undead. Especially since undead destroying spells work on them. If this is correct in what makes them undead, I really don't feel it's necromantic. It's a negative energy life form, but there is no soul being manipulated to do anything just by summoning it, and since they occur "naturally", don't see how that's fitting the unnatural aspect that afaik all true undead share. Not to say it doesn't look evil ICly. It's just like summoning anything else shady or evil-aligned, like a demon or devil.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 6:13 AM ]
Post subject:
jsbealkf0glerbgh Necromancy doesn't touch souls, you're animating lifeless dead husks, that is ALL.

Author:	HellScourge [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 7:22 AM ]
Post subject:
Summoning spells do just that what they say, summon them. You cast summon Undead and you summon the nearest undead. You cast summon animal and you summon the nearest animal. You cast summon fiend and you summon the nearest fiend. etc. Once the spell is over they return to where they came, unharmed, and pissed of. Create undead however does create undead by your power. That they are fueled by souls is a misconception, oocly at least, icly it may be different point of view.

Author:	xordae [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 13:25 PM ]
Post subject:
My homebrewn explanation is that the label "Shadow" is something that people have given to a form of incorporeal undead, not so different from a ghost or wraith. And since it is a label, it's not entirely accurate. Whereas the SD actually animates a shadow (could be his own shadow) by magical means, the same way that he uses HipS and Shadowjump. Making it some sort of elemental being. What I'm curious about.. what exactly is a Wood Wight? Google turned up almost nothing, save for a reference in some obscure PW Wiki that refers to it as an undead.

Author:	IronAngel [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 13:42 PM ]
Post subject:
Never been specified. I reckon it is a violent, savage spirit of nature. Perhaps once living (like telthor of Rashemen), perhaps not. Could be fey in origin, or elemental. Not undead in any sense that druids would disapprove of, probably.

Author:	FA_Frey_XC [ Tue, Sep 29 2009, 7:47 AM ]
Post subject:
Remember that most undead are created naturally, that is someone acted in such a horrible, awful, dastardly way that the Gods cursed them to their afterlife as undead. Summons pulls a undead from it's haunt, and places your will over it. Unintelligent undead cannot speak, and will obey simple orders given to them. Intelligent, or sentient, undead will obviously obey more complex actions, but it's notoriously more difficult to summon them (hence the higher level requirements) and they can actually resist the domination attempt. However, Tormak, you once told me Amia uses a "homebrew" ruleset in regards to Palemasters on Amia in that they are able to manipulate / steal / trap souls. Is this still the case, or was that just your interpretation? Regards,

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Author:	Galenson [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 7:37 AM ]
Post subject:
Fey should have been classified as undead. That way I could have killed them and enjoyed it.

Author:	Crowsterf [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 8:00 AM ]
Post subject:
Galenson wrote: Fey should have been classified as undead. That way I could have killed them and enjoyed it. How does them not stop you from enjoying killing them?

Author:	TormakSaber [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 8:31 AM ]
Post subject:
HellScourge wrote: Summoning spells do just that what they say, summon them. You cast summon Undead and you summon the nearest undead. You cast summon animal and you summon the nearest animal. You cast summon fiend and you summon the nearest fiend. etc. Once the spell is over they return to where they came, unharmed, and pissed of. Nyet. Summon spells call an extraplanar creature. Even the Druid spells are calling in extraplanar animals from the Beastlands and such.

Author:	IronAngel [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 13:02 PM ]
Post subject:
Dark Immolation wrote: Could you explain the difference between the SD summon shadow and the Shade's spell shadow then? Because I was under the same impression Terra was. And I'm a bit foggy on the "extra-planar undead" concept. Are they the risen souls of outsiders? Or are they just outsiders classified as undead... because I don't get how they could be "undead" and never lived/died either... It is extremely foggy. Shadows, the stuff that roam dungeons, the Plane of Shadow and are summoned by spells on Amia, are Incorporeal Undead. You can find them in Monster Manual. These are also the things Shadowdancers summon in PnP/by the book. However, this is different on Amia, and the things summoned by SDs aren't real undead. This is apparently due to the fact that when the rule was made, those in a position to make it played Ranger/SDs (or otherwise good SDs) themselves and it was considered unfitting for non-evil folks like that to summon undead. The original concern may have been legit, but the outcome is just plain confusing. This has put us in the current situation, where we have negative-energy based Shadows that aren't actually hurt by Heal and are different than the other, seemingly identical Shadows that are conventional undead. It makes very little sense. The term "extraplanar undead-type" refers to the idea that they have never lived and thus have never been animated from the dead, but that they're empowered by negative energy (as opposed to living beings empowered by positive energy) and as such, subject to Turn Undead and other such powers.

Author:	Kjetta [ Mon, Sep 28 2009, 13:50 PM ]
Post subject:
Ugh. This is horrible.