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I was wondering if there are plans to change Dragon Knight so it summons dragons that are alignment appropriate. Below are some suggestions for each alignment. For simplicity's sake, everything about the spell would remain the same except the alignment and dragon model (in parenthesis.)

Some suggestions:

LG: Gold Dragon (Gold)
CG: Copper Dragon (Copper)
NG: Adamantine Dragon (White)
LN: Emerald Dragon (Green)
TN: Amethyst Dragon (Red)
CN: Crystal Dragon (Silver)
LE: Blue Dragon (Blue)
CE: Red Dragon (Red)
NE: Obsidian Dragon (Black)

Nice idea, but it would allow people to metagame your exact alignment. While that occurs anyway with the way we do summons, I think that'd just worsen the problem. I'd personally like to see a BoT page that could 1-step all your summons towards good or evil, based on your alignment, to nix that a bit.

Too much work for just one spell, and I don't personally like the over prevalance of strictly psionic dragons in the hands of players without a request.

Considering the spell, I don't see why it's align based aside from what the caster might ~want~ to summon. The original spell, even in pnp summons a red dragon. Summons do as they are told regaurdless of thier alignment/dispositions towards such is the spell.

If the spell didn't overrite thier willpower for the duration, you would have to pray hard the Red Dragon didn't mind some lesser creature telling it what to do.

Maybe in the Amian version, the spell is easiest to cast by using alignment to draw a dragon more willing to do your work, and so matches color to the type of work you are likely to ask it to do based on your alignment.

If a BoT page is made for it, it should allow you to change your alignment setting to summon the other two dragon types.

Wouldn't be a bad idea for the rest of the summon spells either.

Halen_Van wrote:

Considering the spell, I don't see why it's align based aside from what the caster might ~want~ to summon. The original spell, even in pnp summons a red dragon. Summons do as they are told regaurdless of thier alignment/dispositions towards such is the spell.

If the spell didn't overrite thier willpower for the duration, you would have to pray hard the Red Dragon didn't mind some lesser creature telling it what to do.

Maybe in the Amian version, the spell is easiest to cast by using alignment to draw a dragon more willing to do your work, and so matches color to the type of work you are likely to ask it to do based on your alignment.

If a BoT page is made for it, it should allow you to change your alignment setting to summon the other two dragon types.

Wouldn't be a bad idea for the rest of the summon spells either.

Very much agreed.

I like the idea for options, but I agree with Gers. Too much risk of being metagamed as well as you shouldn't -have to- summon that particular dragon. If I'm a TN and want to summon a Silver Dragon, why can't I? It's perfectly plausible that a TN persona and a LG Dragon would be friends and work together. I say leave it how it is now and just allow the options for people to DC request a change in their Dragon type with a proper story. Which is pretty much how it is right now.

Just pay 10 DCs and change it to something else

Summons aren't your friends. They are blanked out when it comes to thier persona and will. They do as they are bid. Animal companions and familiars however are very much your pals, thanks to the bond that is shared. Do you think A beholder wouldn't gun down a mage that summons it if it retained it's own will?

If we are already worried about this furthering the metagaming of alignment; and yes it was mentioned that summons can already do this, I would like to add this Quoted Example:

"Summon Creature IV [Duration: 1 Turn / CL]
Arcane/Divine:
• Good alignment: Celestial Lioness
• Neutral alignment: Magmin
• Evil alignment: Aranea
Nature:
• Good or Neutral alignment: Lioness
• Evil alignment: Malar Cougar"

I can discern your alignment from a single summon as it is, regardless, on the good-to-evil scale. From any summon, short of you getting a re-skin.

Another nice sample:

"Greater Planar Binding [Duration: 1 Turn / CL]
This spell summons an outsider to your side based on your alignment as follows:
• Good: Radiance Elemental
• Neutral: Death Slaad
• Evil: Bebelith Hatchling [Chaotic or Neutral alignment]
• Evil: Gelugon [Lawful alignment"

Now I can even tell if you are Good, Neutral, or Evil- plus I can tell what type of evil you are! Whohoo! We don't already make metagaming alignment a spiffy trick [/sarcasm].

Should I start mentioning that I can metagame you are a Blackguard by what summon you used, assuming I don't have the spellcraft?

"Blackguard: Summon Fiend [Duration: 1 Round / Blackguard Level]
• 1st – 14th Blackguard Level
• Succubus Warrior [Chaotic or Neutral alignment]
• Erinyes [Lawful alignment].
• 15th + Blackguard Level
• Balor Lord [Chaotic or Neutral alignment]
• Infernal [Lawful alignment"

Or in my first example, you can see if it's a Wizzy/Sorc/Cleric or a Druid very specifically?

You too Palemasters! You're getting the Dread Wraith which is only seen in one of the non-palemaster create undead spells! I have a 50/50 shot on spotting you without the obvious arm shown.

"Palemaster: Animate Dead Spell-like Ability [Duration: 24 hours]
• 1st – 8thCL: Mohrg
• 8th – 14th CL: Wraith
• 15th + CL: Dread Wraith
• The Palemaster gains a bonus +1 to CL when using her spell-like ability.
• The summoned undead gains +2 to Turn Resistance."

Point ---> We're not worried about metagaming alignments, or classes, by summon. Seriously. There is already a huge amount of metagaming possible if people were intent on it. Heck, adding -more- variety would make it -harder- to memorize "Alignment 'A' got that summon and 'B' gets this one..." without intentionally bringing up a list of the summon-to-alignment. Metagamers have the full arsenon already to spot alignment by summon.

I don't think anyone summoning a Copper Dragon as an EDK is a good idea.

...Wait. I mean for battle, of course. *shifty eyes*

That aside, I don't think it's that big a deal. LG characters being able to summon a Silver instead of a standard NWN Red was a plus on its own!

Neither of the Chaotic Metallics make good summons, tbh.

By the way, Adamantine dragons are, to my knowledge, horrific 4th edition trash.

Yes, in my opinnion, it would be enough to summon different one for a base alignment only. In the line of Good - Silver, Neutral - Copper or similiar and evil - Red, and I think this has been done already? There is no need for going all out for every specific aliongment group.

Make sure you keep in mind that you cannot summon something -opposed- to your alignment. It's simply not doable. No Good Aligned Cleric is going to be able to summon any Evil dragon.

That said, keep it as is. Save the flavour for DCs, and plots.

Btw, a TN caster actually wouldn't be able to summon any base-dragons at all.

Lawful cannot summon Chaotic
Chaotic cannot summon Lawful
Good cannot summon Evil
Evil cannot summon Good
And, interestingly enough;
True Neutral cannot summon Non-Neutrals (LG,CG,LE,CE)

Quote:

That said, keep it as is. Save the flavour for DCs, and plots.

I concur.

WonWon wrote:

Make sure you keep in mind that you cannot summon something -opposed- to your alignment. It's simply not doable. No Good Aligned Cleric is going to be able to summon any Evil dragon.

Only applies to Clerics, though. And even then, there are examples in canon literature of good priests summoning fiends for questioning. I'd treat it with a grain of salt, since it's very much a story element, rather than a game-mechanical one, IMO.

Yes, in literature there has been cases like that. Still, said demons and fiends, were for questioning and the situation was very different than when summoning a demon to aid one in battle. Due to the fact these are binded to you, against their will. At any given moment they would try and break free. When your concentration in battle would waver they would attack you, or leave you for dead. This should be done then, that ever round, you'd need to make a concentration check against the demon's, and if you fail, it'll be gone.

Burgo wrote:

Yes, in literature there has been cases like that. Still, said demons and fiends, were for questioning and the situation was very different than when summoning a demon to aid one in battle. Due to the fact these are binded to you, against their will. At any given moment they would try and break free. When your concentration in battle would waver they would attack you, or leave you for dead. This should be done then, that ever round, you'd need to make a concentration check against the demon's, and if you fail, it'll be gone.

Not really. It's the same spell, either Planar Binding/Ally or Gate. Granted, it's unlikely for a good PC to find agreeable terms for the fiend's help, since he's not going to offer a thousand souls sent to the Abyss or whatever.

But I say it should be treated more as a "PCs are unlikely to use the services of creatures of opposed alignment, and deities generally don't supply clerics with such servants."

If you applied the rule as is, no good Cleric could open a portal into the Abyss to travel there and fight a demon: it's the same Gate spell, and would supposedly gain the same descriptor as when it's used for summoning. And that makes no sense.

In the end, it doesn't matter what a summon looks like. They're just there to soak up damage away from the caster.

I completely agree with the suggestions to allow a BoT page for summons within one step of a caster's alignment.

We've put in for every other method to avoid metagaming (not able to view challenge ratings, no classes at login). Why not actually do the same for something that actually ADDS to rp, and is correct by lore?

And I'm not accepting that speel that "people will just choose the best one and use it." I've played on another server for as long as I've played Amia, and it has a Book of Summoning, pretty much the same exact thing as a BoT for summon spells I-IX. At each summon rank, there's pretty much 4 basic types: a high ac, a high attack, a spellcaster, and just a 4th "special" thrown in, which is usualyl some hybrid of the other 3. You never see anyone just use one summon, because in the places to hunt, a caster usually has to summon a thing to fit the occasion, or it takes a lot longer to hunt, or just doesn't work.

And it was a relatively small server. No reason we shouldn't be able to get it done on Amia.

Galenson wrote:

In the end, it doesn't matter what a summon looks like. They're just there to soak up damage away from the caster.

Maybe not mechanically but it really does mater for RP.

Halecta wrote:

Just pay 10 DCs and change it to something else

Despite my best efforts over the past few years, I've managed to accumulate 2 DCs. 1 was out of pity from a DM that was somewhat upset that my efforts were going unnoticed.

Never gonna happen.

I do have a cunning plan to acquire more DCs, but I'm weighing the option between possibly losing my 2 DC RP item permanently in a quest to gain at least 2 DCs (so I can replace it should I lose it in the process.)

Just to clarify, I already stated that for simplicity's sake, keep the mechanics of the summon the same. I hadn't intended for some of the gem dragons to actually have psionic powers.

I merely suggested a way to change the appearance (and maybe the alignment) to better suit the caster.

A BoT page would be really nice.

TormakSaber wrote:

By the way, Adamantine dragons are, to my knowledge, horrific 4th edition trash.

They're from 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition. I don't know if they're in 4th Edition.

Ahh. I knew 4th edition changed metallics around and killed off species they felt "redunant". And replaced them with Steel and Adamantine, I believe.

TormakSaber wrote:

Ahh. I knew 4th edition changed metallics around and killed off species they felt "redunant". And replaced them with Steel and Adamantine, I believe.

I believe I heard it being Iron (instead of steel) just a few days ago at the store I work. I just was too lazy to check to be sure..

Halen_Van wrote:

Considering the spell, I don't see why it's align based aside from what the caster might ~want~ to summon. The original spell, even in pnp summons a red dragon. Summons do as they are told regaurdless of thier alignment/dispositions towards such is the spell.

If the spell didn't overrite thier willpower for the duration, you would have to pray hard the Red Dragon didn't mind some lesser creature telling it what to do.

Please don't quote the original epic spell. It's a ritual spell requiring three mages, sacrificing of XP, and like days of summoning before the spell completes:

Quote:

Dragon Knight (Ritual)
Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire]
Spellcraft DC: 38
Components: V, S, Ritual
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 75 ft.
Effect: One summoned adult red dragon
Duration: 20 rounds (D)
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 342,000 gp; 7 days; 13,680 XP. Seed: summon (DC 14). Factors: summon creature other than outsider (+10 DC), summon CR 14 creature (+24 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factor: two additional casters contributing 8th-level spell slots (-30 DC).

This spell summons an adult red dragon. It appears where the character designates and acts immediately. It attacks the character’s opponents to the best of its abilities (on the first round, it prefers to breathe fire on an enemy, if possible). The character can direct the dragon not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. This is a ritual spell requiring two other spellcasters, each of which must contribute an unused 8th-level spell slot to the casting.

I'll always have a love / hate relationship with the NWN implementation of it.

That being said, there's a reason you have the ability to get a skin changer for Summons.

Regards,

Quote:

and like days of summoning before the spell completes:

Quote:

Casting Time: 1 standard action

Approximately three seconds. XP cost only comes during development, otherwise would be listed at the bottom under Components" after the spell description.

I'm for just making PDK worth taking at all, given that half it's main focuses and abilities go down the drain due to a lack of horsies and mounting options (*Snicker*) on Amia it would be nice to have an incentive to take it.

Last edited by FA_Frey_XC on Wed, Sep 23 2009, 5:31 AM, edited 1 time in total.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

and like days of summoning before the spell completes:

Quote:

Casting Time: 1 standard action

Approximately three seconds. XP cost only comes during development, otherwise would be listed at the bottom under Components" after the spell description.

That's once the ritual summoning is done, Tormak... unless I'm mixing up Epic Dragon Strike... just looked, and it as it's stated in the post I made it takes 7 days to ritually "develop" the spell seed with two additional spellcasters donating 8th level spell slots, and the XP. Once all that is DONE, then the spell itself can be cast and the Dragon Summoned in one standard action.

Besides your nit-picking, the original point remains... references to the PnP spell fall completely short of the NWN implementation of it.

Regards,

Developing the spell is separate from casting the spell. Once you develop it, you can cast it at any time as long as you satisfy the component requirements and have an open Epic Spell Slot. In this case, once youy develop the spell have have 2 willing casters to help with with an uncast level 8 spellslot for the day, the three of you can cast the spell in a single action. "Ritual Magic" as a blan ket Term in DnD only refers to any spell that requires more than once caster, not necessarily the time it takes to cast the spell. That tends more towards Circle Magic and Sustained Casting (Red Wizard stuff).

Selvec: The topic is about EDK, not PDK.

That said: Yes, quoting the original epic spell is a bit silly unless you'd prefer a CR 15 adult red as opposed to the behemoth silver, prismatic, and red Wyrms you get in Amia.

Ahh, I see... I had thought that since it was designated as Ritual, that meant it was a ritual casting.

Thats understandable.

Regards,

It is a ritual casting. It requires two other casters to cast. You only nee dto develop the seeds and spell once, to actually learn the spell. It's the Epic Equivalent of a wizard scribing the scroll into their spellbook. Once they do all that, the spell is available to cast anytime you've got your 2 buddies swith you with their level 8 spell slots, and you all have a standard action.

Epic Spell Process:

1: Get the feat Epic Spellcasting. Can't do anything without that.
2: Determine the Epic Spell to Develop. This may be one already in the handbook or a custom one developed with the aid of the DM.

Actually...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIn ... evelopment

There we go. All the fancy bits about XP and GP are for development. You only go through tat arduous porcess once. After that, it's in your "spell list" for good and can be cast like any other spell, via an epic spell slot, with no prep save having the 2 8th level spell slot contributors.

A BOT page would be a good idea. and actually all summon spells should apply. If it can be done, then why not apply it to avoid meta issues?

People keep mentioning skin changes like DCs are handed out like candy....

Besides.....you'd only have to make some bot pages just once instead of having to make a new skin changer every other day.

I think BoT-page summon changes are a fairly general consensus, but Terra hasn't got around to making them. Or maybe I'm wrong and there was some reason not to do it, but IIRC it's just on a long list of things to do, and far from a priority.

You should only be able to summon appointed to your alignment.

Evil can't summon good creatures to do their bidding, and vice versa.

And for the Dev team to have to throw in 9 full sets of summons for everyone, for all summoning spells is WAY much to do.. to keep balanced.. and would most likely end in 95% of the people using it, whining about something someone else gets.

There are already 3, good neutral and evil sets of summons. And in most evil cases, two sets.. lawful and chaotic.

If you don't want to get "metaed" when you're walking around with pitch black armor, skull helmet and a demon on your side.. then don't do that. That's not really metaing either. Someone that can summon a demon, are in 100% of the cases, really not a good person. It's no more metaing, than assuming someone in black and green armor with an evil glowing scimitar or morningstar is a Banite. And if you complain oocly when someone calls your char out on the obvious, then that's really not doing anyone any good, since you gave ooc confirmation about it.

Summons are what they are. If you want to hide some evil summon as something else, Request a DM reskin, with a fancy story and suddenly you're more unique! If everyone could do that, it would be rather boring eventually, no? If you want to hide how evil/good/chaotic/whatever you are, then dress appropriately.

I honestly can't grasp why so many would want to standardize more and more fancy stuff.. it just makes everyone bland and WOWified.

Diversity trough innovative thinking, DC reskins and Plots!

Gravemakin, couldn't any alignment character summon neutral help?

Gravemaskin wrote:

You should only be able to summon appointed to your alignment.

Evil can't summon good creatures to do their bidding, and vice versa.

That's just not true. It is somewhat true for clerics, but doesn't at all apply to arcane casters. Clerics can't cast divine spells of the alignment their god is opposed to (possibly their own alignment too, not sure), and summon spells get the alignment of the summoned creatures. Mages have no such restriction.

Either way, the suggestion on the table is that you can change your summon alignment one step. Which makes a lot of sense. Why would a a CN priest of Selûne summon LN clockworks from Nirvana, or a LN Helmite use the services of slaadi? A NG Gondian would be better with the neutran constructs than celestial avengers, on the other hand.

TormakSaber wrote:

It is a ritual casting. It requires two other casters to cast.

Make it so!

What? I can dream, can't I?

IronAngel wrote:

Gravemaskin wrote:

You should only be able to summon appointed to your alignment.

Evil can't summon good creatures to do their bidding, and vice versa.

That's just not true. It is somewhat true for clerics, but doesn't at all apply to arcane casters. Clerics can't cast divine spells of the alignment their god is opposed to (possibly their own alignment too, not sure), and summon spells get the alignment of the summoned creatures. Mages have no such restriction.

Either way, the suggestion on the table is that you can change your summon alignment one step. Which makes a lot of sense. Why would a a CN priest of Selûne summon LN clockworks from Nirvana, or a LN Helmite use the services of slaadi? A NG Gondian would be better with the neutran constructs than celestial avengers, on the other hand.

I'd love to make every alignment have a creature, but making 9 balanced creatures for 9 summon spells (81 already) along with 9 balanced creatures for 4 planar spells (36) along with 2 creatures for mummy dust (one deathless, one undead) and 9 dragons... um... well, I don't want to do the work...

Alignment appropriate Dragon Knight?

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