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Something to do with PCs that didn't get past level 5 or so.
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Author:  The Incognitos [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 11:31 AM ]
Post subject:  Something to do with PCs that didn't get past level 5 or so.
Give them a job. Bring them into the game, bind them at a location that uses a specific job title, and contribute some raw materials or become a refiner or something... one of the jobs that not enough people do.
Author:  Mr Mago [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 11:34 AM ]
Post subject: 
Nah.

Just sacrifice them.
Author:  Dakotaen [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 11:39 AM ]
Post subject: 
Sounds almost metagamey to me. Having a character that's bound to a place where he/she can gather a resource, then log out? No thank you.
Author:  Torzeng [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 13:05 PM ]
Post subject: 
Dakotaen wrote:
Sounds almost metagamey to me. Having a character that's bound to a place where he/she can gather a resource, then log out? No thank you.


Why?

Because all our characters -have- to make their lives as an adventurer?

What, you suppose a farmer doesn't spend every day tending crops and, well, tending crops?

A rancher doesn't spend their day tending the animals?

Daily?

Every day?

It's not metagamy. It's a form for RP! Now, if it's not used well for the RP is a -shame-. But it's 100% fair.

Any troubles of somebody stripping down a resource just after reset, for a time too continued, would be looked into by the DM's and player alerted to ease off. Assuming you're dealing with a resource that is limited per reset. A lot of jobs are not.
Author:  Uncle-Opustus [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 13:26 PM ]
Post subject: 
Well my characters didn't become epic wizards by cutting wood.
Author:  Yurell [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 13:32 PM ]
Post subject: 
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
Well my characters didn't become epic wizards by cutting wood.


I didn't become a third-tier physician by killing giants?
Author:  Uncle-Opustus [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 13:49 PM ]
Post subject: 
Yarp. That's what your job points are for.
Author:  blackvswhite [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 15:09 PM ]
Post subject: 
Yurell wrote:
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
Well my characters didn't become epic wizards by cutting wood.


I didn't become a third-tier physician by killing giants?


yes you did! job points come with level!
Author:  Xiru [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 15:16 PM ]
Post subject: 
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
Well my characters didn't become epic wizards by cutting wood.


What does that have to do with the suggestion?
Author:  Dwagin [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 16:05 PM ]
Post subject: 
There's a perfectly viable IC explanation as to why Jess' idea has merits to be accomplished RP wise.

Amia resets, RL doesn't, and the continuity of the in game world stays the same..

If your PC in this case were a miner. Would they leave the mine back to the city several times a day If that was -their job- ?

Food for thought.
Author:  colanah [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 17:24 PM ]
Post subject: 
As someone that plays with PCs that never get past level 4 or so and are dubbed RP only pcs...I am fully behind this idea. Bring a friend while picking/mining/trapping/wetf you want.

You can RP and enjoy yourselves though it would provide what seems to be needed materials to the server. Also if you don't like to fight, well you're not fighting are you? Many resources are in perfectly safe little places. Some aren't but you take the good with the bad, neh? Oh...don't forget to take a rank in trader for whatever you're gathering. That stuff is heavy and trader boxes are life savers.
Author:  Uncle-Opustus [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 18:28 PM ]
Post subject: 
Xiru wrote:
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
Well my characters didn't become epic wizards by cutting wood.


What does that have to do with the suggestion?


Probably nothing. Sorry, I'll go slash my wrists.
Author:  Grymia [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 19:37 PM ]
Post subject: 
I have to side WITH this idea myself.

Tuomas has been a more RP geared character with little want or idealogical will to fight. So, what's his alternative?

The Job system heavily influenced my want to make this character I'll admit, but as a result he's turned out quite interesting and been able to nonetheless have good fun RP
Author:  Dakotaen [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 22:05 PM ]
Post subject: 
Torzeng wrote:
Dakotaen wrote:
Sounds almost metagamey to me. Having a character that's bound to a place where he/she can gather a resource, then log out? No thank you.


Why?

Because all our characters -have- to make their lives as an adventurer?


No, because having a character stand in one place, not use it for RP, but make it to farm materials and nothing else seems absolutely senseless. Sure, a character can be used only for gathering materials, but then why would it be bound next to a certain material, and only be used for that? And logging on to sell said materials to people who need it, and only that, just makes it even worse, and seem to me as if it might just ruin the entire idea of the job system.

...Unless of course I've misunderstood this entire thing. <.<
Author:  Dwagin [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 22:21 PM ]
Post subject: 
Aptly put concerns, Dako. Its pretty similar to having a 'Crafting Mule' in MMO's, which does have a definite negative connotation, if you're not RPing it. Its pretty much muling in my opinion if the PC isn't being RPed, or it seems to be in violation of the spirit of the muling rules anyways..

I wanted to illustrate possibilities, of Jess' idea, as the economy -does- need help in this department, however I also approach every action/character as being IC at all times, cept in the Entry/Area To Rest. I may have taken it for granted that such is assumed to be 'always in effect'. Though.. I assume technically it is from what DMs have said in the past, No OOC resting/No OOC hunting.
Author:  The Incognitos [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 22:56 PM ]
Post subject: 
By "bind near a location" I mean a lumberjack in Guldorland, an Apple Farmer in Bendir(if a Hin) and a Weaver in Cordor. That type of thing. I didn't mean use the portal wand to zoom directly to your location. As the lumberjack works in the forests they gain 'life experience' and venture further afield in search of rare wood. If they then become an adventurer as a result so be it.

The idea behind this is to add much needed raw materials and services to the job system and/or to give well established PCs someone to convert their mined ore into an ingot of metal at a 'realistic' metalworking price.

There are many possibilities that can spring from this. Guilds for example; a simple association of Tanners in Cordor would make it far easier to contact a Tanner if you needed one. A guild could include members from a range of factions and would need no ideological affiliations, it could just provide organization.

It could also give scribes something to do; making a book containing the names of other tanners and suppliers of raw skins for members of the tanners guild to purchase. And so on...
Author:  Yurell [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 23:10 PM ]
Post subject: 
At any rate, I support the idea. People can be normal (well, 'normal') people without having to go and slay giants, and this way they're adding to the player economy.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Aug 16 2009, 23:40 PM ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Something to do with PCs that didn't get past level 5 or so.


RP with them?

Oh.... wait....
Author:  Torzeng [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 1:59 AM ]
Post subject: 
Dakotaen wrote:
Torzeng wrote:
Dakotaen wrote:
Sounds almost metagamey to me. Having a character that's bound to a place where he/she can gather a resource, then log out? No thank you.


Why?

Because all our characters -have- to make their lives as an adventurer?


No, because having a character stand in one place, not use it for RP, but make it to farm materials and nothing else seems absolutely senseless. Sure, a character can be used only for gathering materials, but then why would it be bound next to a certain material, and only be used for that? And logging on to sell said materials to people who need it, and only that, just makes it even worse, and seem to me as if it might just ruin the entire idea of the job system.

...Unless of course I've misunderstood this entire thing. <.<


Torzeng wrote:
Now, if it's not used well for the RP is a -shame-.


I call it fair.

I also call it a shame if you don't RP for it.
Author:  J.G. [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 2:31 AM ]
Post subject: 
This is a good Idea as long as the OOC mules are kept in check.
Author:  Galenson [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 2:45 AM ]
Post subject: 
TormakSaber wrote:

RP with them?

Oh.... wait....



You need a computer to do that :P
Author:  The Incognitos [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 3:38 AM ]
Post subject: 
I think people are misunderstanding the point of what I'm saying here. The job system is good provided that there are people available all the way down the line to fill the required roles.

When you look at the size of the job matrix, compare it to the popularity of some jobs over others and the relative time people spend engaged in their chosen jobs it becomes apparent that some jobs just won't get the time they need.

Insofar as having one character with one job who just logs on to say gather ore and sell it to a refiner, or to buy logs and turn them into planks for a carpenter or an inventor, what's wrong with that? I can't see how it could possibly be a bad thing. I know that if I went and mined some ore I would much rather have it refined by someone who RPed being a professional refiner as opposed to an NPC that did NPC things. No question about it.

These refiners could post an advertisement on the PC forums or better yet in the Amian newspaper. People contact them when they have a quantity of ore to refine and it gets done. The PC is just a refiner, not a fighter/mage/paladin/swamp thing, just a simple refiner. If they get really rich take them to a temple to make a donation, or rent a house in Cordor or something. This could be a great thing to do if your mains have 'down time'.
Author:  Dark [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 4:12 AM ]
Post subject: 
I get the idea, and I love it.. It's not ooc muling, it's using chars that are otherwise un used and un wanted and finding them rp and filling a hole in the system at the same time!
Author:  BlackDahlya [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 4:21 AM ]
Post subject: 
I am with Incognitos in this one.

For RP, I have been in dire need of paper for ages now, and more recently, wood for the carpenter stuff Daniel has to make.

And it's very rare to find people willing to do that.

These kinds of PCs would help a lot!
Author:  Torzeng [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 5:20 AM ]
Post subject: 
*EDIT for clarity*

*As if cheered out at a rally in support of a team.*

Yeah!

There is the DEMAND for supplies.

Now is your chance to Monopolize! Be that one Supplier -everyone- is needing!
Author:  BlackDahlya [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 5:31 AM ]
Post subject: 
Torzeng wrote:
Yeah!

There is the DEMAND for supplies.

Now is your chance to Monopolize! Be that one Supplier -everyone- is needing!


Some items can only be found in dangerous areas to which lowbie charactes cannot go.

I think you might be worrying too much.
Author:  Torzeng [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 5:49 AM ]
Post subject: 
BlackDahlya wrote:
Torzeng wrote:
Yeah!

There is the DEMAND for supplies.

Now is your chance to Monopolize! Be that one Supplier -everyone- is needing!


Some items can only be found in dangerous areas to which lowbie charactes cannot go.

I think you might be worrying too much.


I'm not worrying. This is your basic of the basics when it comes to being an entrepreneur. Whoohoo!
Author:  BlackDahlya [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 5:51 AM ]
Post subject: 
Torzeng wrote:
BlackDahlya wrote:
Torzeng wrote:
Yeah!

There is the DEMAND for supplies.

Now is your chance to Monopolize! Be that one Supplier -everyone- is needing!


Some items can only be found in dangerous areas to which lowbie charactes cannot go.

I think you might be worrying too much.


I'm not worrying. This is your basic of the basics when it comes to being an entrepreneur. Whoohoo!


Pardon. I interpreted what you said as sarcasm, which is why I said that. :(
Author:  Gunz [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 7:24 AM ]
Post subject: 
I have to say, I'm against this. It's a pretty cheap way of getting what you need. It really is kinda like mulling, IMO.
Author:  BlackDahlya [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 7:26 AM ]
Post subject: 
@Guns

Just check the amount of times people bump their IC notices about their search for crafting material.
Author:  Gunz [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 7:41 AM ]
Post subject: 
Believe me, I've had the hardest times, multiple times, trying to find people to supply my characters with certain job system items. I still think this is a cheap way to do it. If there's a job shortage in a certain area, there is sure to be someone to fill the void. Just like in real life, people don't always have the job of their dreams. Some people take jobs because it makes ends meet, no other reason. PC's who are actually played can fill the void. Having characters, that aren't played, come on to make job system items, talk a little, sell and log? Sorry, I find that lame.
Author:  IronAngel [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 8:13 AM ]
Post subject: 
Uhh, I don't see anything resembling "muling" (you obviously shouldn't supply your other PCs with one of your own) or OOC behaviour about this. This is exactly what the Job system is for: to offer some activity to those PCs who don't want to be full-time adventurers.

I'd much rather see low-level commoner PCs making the world alive, instead of static, mute NPCs that are supposed to fill the same role. So yes, please, more of organized, role-played job stuff. Guilds would be fancy.
Author:  Yurell [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 8:22 AM ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Iron.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 8:24 AM ]
Post subject: 
IronAngel wrote:
Uhh, I don't see anything resembling "muling" (you obviously shouldn't supply your other PCs with one of your own) or OOC behaviour about this. This is exactly what the Job system is for: to offer some activity to those PCs who don't want to be full-time adventurers.

I'd much rather see low-level commoner PCs making the world alive, instead of static, mute NPCs that are supposed to fill the same role. So yes, please, more of organized, role-played job stuff. Guilds would be fancy.


I on the other hand would prefer to see adventurers.
Author:  Gunz [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 8:33 AM ]
Post subject: 
I think this is getting lost because of the context different people might be reading in to it. When I read it, I think:

"So you have a PC you don't play anymore? Don't like the PC? Well, use it anyway, to make job items for us!"

Others may be seeing:

"So you have a PC you want to keep at low levels? You use it to play a commoner or someone who just isn't capable of reaching higher levels? Well, give is a job it may or may not like so it has ways to make ends meet in life and make job items for us!"
Author:  IronAngel [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 8:34 AM ]
Post subject: 
Meh, I think that's boring. What's the point of being an adventurer if there are no normal people? If adventuring is the norm, it's not very cool.

Some people prefer to play "NPC" roles, background characters. I think it's a great service to the entire playerbase, giving others the option of playing those adventurers and interacting with the common man.

Since I can't tell people to play adventurers, I'd much rather see guildsmen interacting with the adventurers and the economy, rather than social tea parties.
Author:  The Incognitos [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 9:17 AM ]
Post subject: 
IronAngel wrote:
Meh, I think that's boring. What's the point of being an adventurer if there are no normal people? If adventuring is the norm, it's not very cool.

Some people prefer to play "NPC" roles, background characters. I think it's a great service to the entire playerbase, giving others the option of playing those adventurers and interacting with the common man.

Since I can't tell people to play adventurers, I'd much rather see guildsmen interacting with the adventurers and the economy, rather than social tea parties.


This is what I was aiming at. I feel like a bit of a waste of server space if I'm on with a 'main' character just standing around and talking about nothing at all.

At least this way I can have effective (for want of a better for) RP with a other players that I may not normally interact with.
Author:  Torzeng [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 10:47 AM ]
Post subject: 
BlackDahlya wrote:


Just check the amount of times people bump their IC notices about their search for crafting material.


QFE
Author:  Dwagin [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 15:51 PM ]
Post subject: 
IronAngel wrote:
Uhh, I don't see anything resembling "muling" (you obviously shouldn't supply your other PCs with one of your own) or OOC behaviour about this. This is exactly what the Job system is for: to offer some activity to those PCs who don't want to be full-time adventurers.


Without RP reasoning/accompanying the PC, and if it was used in a way that has some way to benefit one of your characters or the faction they belong to.. it violates that spirit of the muling law, s'all I'm saying.


Muling has different meanings in other games, than it does on Amia.

For instance in UO a 'Crafting Mule' was a PC that was wholly focused on non-adventure, due to the way the skills worked there. some people would have an adventurer and fund their 'crafting mule'. (Mule like a sturdy workhorse) instead of compromise their adventuring fellow with skills that were useless in combat, and the same for the crafter compromised with adventuring skills. It had no negative connotation there.
Author:  SaberCrazy [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 19:06 PM ]
Post subject: 
colanah wrote:
As someone that plays with PCs that never get past level 4 or so and are dubbed RP only pcs...I am fully behind this idea. Bring a friend while picking/mining/trapping/wetf you want.

You can RP and enjoy yourselves though it would provide what seems to be needed materials to the server. Also if you don't like to fight, well you're not fighting are you? Many resources are in perfectly safe little places. Some aren't but you take the good with the bad, neh? Oh...don't forget to take a rank in trader for whatever you're gathering. That stuff is heavy and trader boxes are life savers.



This.

If they aren't in safe areas hire mercs to guard you. it helps the RP for the whole server, so not all the RP is done in Cordor.
Author:  tsukasa1991 [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 19:48 PM ]
Post subject: 
aside from the obvious Rp holes in this idea...
the argument that not all characters grow up to slay dragons is pretty lame, because, in the DnD handbook itself, it is stated that the PC characters ARE special, and NPCs are the farmers and miners etc. not saying that PCs CANT be these things in addition to heros/ villains, but that shouldent be their main goal. everyone can RP differently and however they want, but it doesnt really fit to make someone who is above average in their abilities to be stuck mining. a lvl 1 PC is much much stronger than a lvl 1 NPC because they get more attribute points right from the start, making them special.
So no, these characters should NOT be used for macroing materials. even if this would flood the economy with golds and materials, it is horrible RP.
Author:  Lesquille [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 19:51 PM ]
Post subject: 
Dwagin wrote:
Without RP reasoning/accompanying the PC, and if it was used in a way that has some way to benefit one of your characters or the faction they belong to.. it violates that spirit of the muling law, s'all I'm saying.


You could say the same thing about ordinary grinding. "It's profitiable" is enough of an RP justification.
Author:  Dwagin [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 20:52 PM ]
Post subject: 
Hunting exists IC. There's no such thing as OOC hunting. And yes you can say the same thing, that is precisely my point. Anything done in game should be done IC and with RP as a reasoning behind it.

That reason need not be complicated or complex.

'I'm a miner, and that is my job, that is what I do. ' is reason enough to do it.


Though I would be slightly skeptical/cynical if someone who belongs with a faction is constantly logging on/feeding alt's supplies to their faction's benifit. Even if its being sold properly it just seems like something is wrong with that to me.
Author:  BlackDahlya [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 21:03 PM ]
Post subject: 
Dwagin wrote:
Hunting exists IC. There's no such thing as OOC hunting. And yes you can say the same thing, that is precisely my point. Anything done in game should be done IC and with RP as a reasoning behind it.

That reason need not be complicated or complex.

'I'm a miner, and that is my job, that is what I do. ' is reason enough to do it.


Though I would be slightly skeptical/cynical if someone who belongs with a faction is constantly logging on/feeding alt's supplies to their faction's benifit. Even if its being sold properly it just seems like something is wrong with that to me.


Do you have a better idea? Again, I insist... have you seen how many times the IC posts asking for crafting materials are bumped?

If you think the suggestion given by Incognitos is muling, then what are we supposed to do? Just stop using the Job System because you cannot find materials for your job?

I am almost tired of bumping my thread asking for materials. And I gave up bumping my other thread I made at least one or two months ago asking for paper.

So, should I be prevented from using my own job, because there is no supplier and because I if find a provider I would be abusing the system?

Take this as a food for thought, not flame or sarcasm.
Author:  Dwagin [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 22:34 PM ]
Post subject: 
If I was to want the crafting system to be a more utilized part of the game system I'd increase the desirability for players to gather and produce. Obviously, increasing the desirability of what they produce and the desirability to produce it would be the most immediate way to do that.


To do that you look to what is desired in the community and have those be made.

Or you create demand for something by reducing supply of a -needed commodity-

Or contrarily, you can introduce a new needed commodity and have the only way to acquire this be crafting them.

Examples of items which could be made that'd be popular to craft, without me taking any time to think of balance concerns about it, so don't flame me:

Light Gems

Mythals

Wands

Blank spell paper

Books of transmutation

Pages of transmutation

Actual useful to adventurers Player crafted armor and weapons.

Player crafted permanent enchants to Gear for things that aren't done/not utilized well by the MCS. (+3/4 Stats, 5/- 10/- resist, Spellslots. +10 of certain skills)

+AB, Keen base weapons for each weapon type to be used by the MCS.

+AC armor (Finding +4 full plate is difficult in comparison to its usable loot level for example.)

+AC shields.

+ AC boots with +stats on them, other than monk boots of varying power level.

Consumables of popular spells/abilities.

More custom items that can't normally be used in the module. (Ergo special helm models/weapon models that aren't allowed by the system)
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 22:53 PM ]
Post subject: 
Gods, they don't need more rewards. People already abuse the system enough by taking the jobs that give out 100xp a success, yet have little to do with the character. I've heard of player's who's characters have recieved quite literally half their entire XP from doing jobs rather then hunting. Anymore power rewards for doing jobs and Amia might well turn into the Runescape of NWN.

In retrospect, you have jobs like the Militia job which are practiclarly useless in reward aspect. Taking them as an epic level character is pretty much a gigantic waste of job points.
Author:  The Incognitos [ Mon, Aug 17 2009, 22:58 PM ]
Post subject: 
tsukasa1991 wrote:
aside from the obvious Rp holes in this idea...
the argument that not all characters grow up to slay dragons is pretty lame, because, in the DnD handbook itself, it is stated that the PC characters ARE special, and NPCs are the farmers and miners etc. not saying that PCs CANT be these things in addition to heros/ villains, but that shouldent be their main goal. everyone can RP differently and however they want, but it doesnt really fit to make someone who is above average in their abilities to be stuck mining. a lvl 1 PC is much much stronger than a lvl 1 NPC because they get more attribute points right from the start, making them special.
So no, these characters should NOT be used for macroing materials. even if this would flood the economy with golds and materials, it is horrible RP.


I must say this is painfully presumptuous. Not everyone wants to start their character is a death machine and just make them a better death machine. Let's say they start as a logger, get better, gain 'life experience' and travel to more dangerous areas to find rare trees. They become a minor adventurer as part of their job, not the other way around.

Try to consider that not all people wish to RP like you before making banal statements about "RP holes".
Author:  Yurell [ Tue, Aug 18 2009, 0:23 AM ]
Post subject: 
tsukasa1991 wrote:
aside from the obvious Rp holes in this idea...
the argument that not all characters grow up to slay dragons is pretty lame, because, in the DnD handbook itself, it is stated that the PC characters ARE special, and NPCs are the farmers and miners etc. not saying that PCs CANT be these things in addition to heros/ villains, but that shouldent be their main goal. everyone can RP differently and however they want, but it doesnt really fit to make someone who is above average in their abilities to be stuck mining. a lvl 1 PC is much much stronger than a lvl 1 NPC because they get more attribute points right from the start, making them special.
So no, these characters should NOT be used for macroing materials. even if this would flood the economy with golds and materials, it is horrible RP.


I'm sorry, where are the RP holes? And in my char that just wants to be a farmer and left alone, why would there not be RP holes in going and invading creatures' lairs to massacre them?
Author:  DarkAngelGirl [ Tue, Aug 18 2009, 20:50 PM ]
Post subject: 
This idea has merit. It is being overanalyzed.
Author:  Xiru [ Wed, Aug 19 2009, 8:17 AM ]
Post subject: 
I agree. Besides, is there even a need for discussion? Just grab your level five toons and get to crafting. Nobody can tell you what to do with your characters.

Oh wait..
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