AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I've played a few casters in my time here, but i always ran into the question: Which is better, empowered or maximized? I know Max does the constant greatness, but empowered can do 1.5 times the greatness! It makes me so confuzzled

That's why you take both.

Max. ALL aspects of the spell is maximized. Empower simply makes a spell more powerful. Doesn't increase the duration, or damage resistence or stuff like that.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Max. ALL aspects of the spell is maximized. Empower simply makes a spell more powerful. Doesn't increase the duration, or damage resistence or stuff like that.

Hmm, no.

Neither increase duration, and maximize only increases the number of targets etc in some cases.

For more information on both feats:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Maximize_spell

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Empower_spell

Depends on the application. I love Empower because it has the potential to out-damage a Maximized spell (1.5x makes that a pretty good chance) and it doesn't use up such a high slot. Likewise, you can get +7 ability out of an Empowered buff whereas you get a flat +5 from Maximize. Maximize is still the prime choice for fights where you don't intend to lose. Bossfights, PvP and all that. When you have spellslots to burn.

Empowered is my choice, I'd rather bank on extra damage, besides, stuff like this:

An empowered Spell Mantle is always better than a normal Greater Spell Mantle, so if you have the empower feat, especially for Sorcerers, ignore Greater Spell Mantle and instead use an empowered Spell Mantle.

In addition, an empowered Lesser Spell Mantle is always better than a basic Spell Mantle.

Regards,

Depends on the caster. I have always said the following: Maximize is better for wizards(prolly any divine caster too). Empower is better for sorcerors.

Wizard:

You have a set number of each spell. You need and want to get the absolute most out of each spell you take the time to slot. You can't be playing around with probability and such, you're a man/woman of science, dammit! *ahem* Anyway, if you set an IGMS, you're better off knowing you're getting a full 120 magical, every time hit the button than playing around with a rank 9 spell that may roll lower damage. Maximize is your friend.

Sorcerer:

Firstly, you rule the crowd control game. Secondly, you already have all of the damage spells just waiting to go at your fingertips. You don't finish a spawn off with the two spells you thought it would take? Fine, just pull the trigger again, you've got that luxory. In fact, you can empower on the fly, if you're not using the higher ranked offensive spells, which sometimes don't have the same base damage potential as some spells empowered (see emp Firebrand/CoC vs plain Delayed Fireball and emp Spell Mantle vs Greater Mantle). Long story short, go ahead and cast off two empowered IGMS. Granted, you'll very likely not get the full 180, but likely much more damage than you'd expect. It also only requires 2 ranks above, not 3 like maximize. Empower is your wingman.

Again, you can probably replace "wizard" with cleric as well. You have a set number of spells as well, but unfortunately, I haven't seen many clerics that are spell focused. Oh well. Those are just my opinions on the two. When in doubt and you can only choose one metamagic feat, follow the way your caster class is set up, says this mage.

Take both if you can afford it. Having both means you have three different levels at which you can use the same spell. If it's a good spell for a specific area (Like Ice-Storm in the Spires) you want to be able to cast it as often as possible.

Spell freedom is why I normally advocate taking silent spell on wizards.

I remember reading an article about comparisons between empower and maximise. It all depends on the dice being used:

For dice where there's fewer outcomes (d3, d4 and even d6) and a low caster level, the damage difference between maximise and empower are so negligable that it doesn't matter which you take.

When you start getting the higher caster levels and the larger dice, the two separate from each other:
-Empower CAN do more damage but the probability of doing more damage is lower then a maximise.
-Maximise you're guaranteed to do x amount of damage but no more.

But hey, empower is only 2 spell levels higher not 3 like maximised. Even A maximised missile storm will do 120 total damage that is divided evenly over a group of targets, an empowered delayed fireball or horrid wilting has the potential to be even nastier to all targets.

Both have advantages over the other, it's not fair to compare them. If you can take both by all means. You've got reason to.

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

Take both if you can afford it. Having both means you have three different levels at which you can use the same spell. If it's a good spell for a specific area (Like Ice-Storm in the Spires) you want to be able to cast it as often as possible.

Spell freedom is why I normally advocate taking silent spell on wizards.

This.

Cleric, bard: Maximise
All other caster classes: Maximise and Empower

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Cleric, bard: Maximise
All other caster classes: Maximise and Empower

Caster Cleric: Maximised and Silent.

All meta-magics are useful in their own little way.

Except Quicken-Spell. Nobody loves you.

Galenson wrote:

For dice where there's fewer outcomes (d3, d4 and even d6) and a low caster level, the damage difference between maximise and empower are so negligable that it doesn't matter which you take.

When you start getting the higher caster levels and the larger dice, the two separate from each other:
-Empower CAN do more damage but the probability of doing more damage is lower then a maximise.
-Maximise you're guaranteed to do x amount of damage but no more.

d3:
Maximised: 3
Empowered: 3 (min: 1.5, max: 4.5)
Difference: 0

d4:
Maximised: 4
Empowered: 3.75 (min: 1.5, max: 6)
Difference: 0.25

d6:
Maximised: 6
Empowered: 5.25 (min: 1.5, max: 9)
Difference: 0.75

d8:
Maximised: 8
Empowered: 6.75 (min: 1.5, max: 12)
Difference: 1.25

d10:
Maximised: 10
Empowered: 8.25 (min: 1.5, max: 15)
Difference: 1.75

d12:
Maximised: 12
Empowered: 9.75 (min: 1.5, max: 18)
Difference: 2.25

As you can see, as the dice get bigger, the difference gets bigger, and naturally the more of them you roll the bigger the difference.
For amusement, d2 and d1 (straight damage) earn you more on empowered, but I didn't bother to show this.

Just in case someone asks, the number for Empowered is the average damage.

Edit: I thought I'd add that, like PnP, fractional damage is always rounded down in NWN. I included it for the sake of multiplication / averages

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

All meta-magics are useful in their own little way.

Except Quicken-Spell. Nobody loves you.

Quicken is taken so Automatic Quicken can later be taken

Azrael wrote:

Quicken is taken so Automatic Quicken can later be taken

No one loves Automatic Quicken Either.

Azrael wrote:

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

All meta-magics are useful in their own little way.

Except Quicken-Spell. Nobody loves you.

Quicken is taken so Automatic Quicken can later be taken

Which is useless because of haste.

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

Azrael wrote:

Quicken is taken so Automatic Quicken can later be taken

No one loves Automatic Quicken Either.

Silvarus wrote:

Azrael wrote:

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

All meta-magics are useful in their own little way.

Except Quicken-Spell. Nobody loves you.

Quicken is taken so Automatic Quicken can later be taken

Which is useless because of haste.

Wana have a mage duel? Let's see who wins ^^

Azrael wrote:

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

Azrael wrote:

Quicken is taken so Automatic Quicken can later be taken

No one loves Automatic Quicken Either.

Silvarus wrote:

Azrael wrote:

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

All meta-magics are useful in their own little way.

Except Quicken-Spell. Nobody loves you.

Quicken is taken so Automatic Quicken can later be taken

Which is useless because of haste.

Wana have a mage duel? Let's see who wins ^^

taken from nwnwiki and something to be aware of

-The description of quicken spell says that a quickened spell is "invulnerable to counterspells and interruption"; this is not true.

Quickened spells can be countered normally, unless the caster is hastened. If the caster is hastened, the counterspeller must also be hastened to successfully counterspell.-

quickened spells cannot counter hasted spells, but the haster can. the haster will win in a counterspell battle easily. also, auto-quicken takes 4 feats, 3 of which are epic. I see that as another +3 int at the very least for greater DC. I'll stick with extended haste personally, but there is something to be said for never having to keep yourself buffed with a round/lvl spell

Whatever ever happened to extend spell?

No love

GreatPigeon wrote:

Whatever ever happened to extend spell?

No love

every caster ive ever had has extend spell. Especially for those rounds/lvl spells. Ive found on amia especially its a good idea to extend the lower lvl summons instead of the highest one you can cast. Only need 1 summons spell instead of a couple, and because its only one i buff it all out, which ends up making it better than the higher lvl summons spot its taking

Empower for dmg.
Maximize for buffing.

Thanks for all the replies! And those of you that said take both, i was asking for those spells i never really wanted a LOT of, just soe of, but couldnt decide whether to max it or empower it. But still, thanks

hendrack wrote:

Empower for dmg.
Maximize for buffing.

or both for spells like firebrand that hits everything in a huge radius but not you or your summons. More firebrands is a good thing sometimes

TheNamelessUnknown1 wrote:

GreatPigeon wrote:

Whatever ever happened to extend spell?

No love

every caster ive ever had has extend spell. Especially for those rounds/lvl spells. Ive found on amia especially its a good idea to extend the lower lvl summons instead of the highest one you can cast. Only need 1 summons spell instead of a couple, and because its only one i buff it all out, which ends up making it better than the higher lvl summons spot its taking

Or Dominate undead.. Extended dominate undead, lasts a whole reset. Helloooo Coven leader!

Nuh.

Wizard with Necromancy focus, Then Spell Focus: Necromancy, then Epic Spell Focus, necromancy.

This will enable a summon that in theory lasts TWO Resets!

Muspelkvist wrote:

Nuh.

Wizard with Necromancy focus, Then Spell Focus: Necromancy, then Epic Spell Focus, necromancy.

This will enable a summon that in theory lasts TWO Resets!

Unless you walk to a Kelemvorite of course.

Last edited by Azrael on Tue, Aug 11 2009, 5:25 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Auto Quicken is like a hasted speed of casting that cannot be dispelled by anything. A haste spell?...that lasts 2 seconds in a mage duel.

Counter dueling an auto quickened? They can cast haste and chug potions of haste any time they need to. Can also start with a GS scroll before haste and wa-la. (while hostile) A person cannot counter a person in gs 'Until' the gs is broken/used. Casting defensive spells like haste or spell mantles do not break it, and you get one offensive spell so if the person countering you isn't in a spellmantle (or gs) they're doomed.

One mords spell (while in a spell mantle) and the auto quickened wins vs the non auto quickened from the extra spell a round. Edit: if the haste is dispeled.

The non-autoquicken mage decides to recast haste?...there went an extra round, duel is over by then.

...at least that's how it is with pro mage duelers...one extra spell and its over. It only takes one mistake.

I will say however it's possible to defeat a quickened mage by either making the first move while hasted, or using timestop.

..quickened mages are also quite rare so the timestop every once in awhile might be worth it.

If your going to be an autoquickened mage make sure your Caster Level is high enough to dispel a haste from another high lvl mage or the advantage is lost.

If your dueling as an autoquickened mage vs an autoquickened mage, it's like normal dueling but twice as fast.

TheNamelessUnknown1 wrote:

-The description of quicken spell says that a quickened spell is "invulnerable to counterspells and interruption"; this is not true.

Quickened spells can be countered normally, unless the caster is hastened. If the caster is hastened, the counterspeller must also be hastened to successfully counterspell.

That's disappointing.
At any rate, I was thinking about creating an autoquicken mage, but it's so bloody annoying when Bioware lies like that.

Since summons are conjuration, if I took Spell Focus Conjuration, then Greater Spell Focus Conjuration, then Epic Spell Focus Conjuration, then used a summon spell with extend on it, would that then increase the duration of my summon by a shit load?

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Since summons are conjuration, if I took Spel Focus Conjuration, then Greater Spell Focus Conuration, then Epic Spell Focus Conjuration, then used a summon spells with extend on it, would that then increase the duration of my summon by a (censored) load?

I don't think ESF (Conj) actually increases the duration of summons besides EDK.

Yurell wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Since summons are conjuration, if I took Spel Focus Conjuration, then Greater Spell Focus Conuration, then Epic Spell Focus Conjuration, then used a summon spells with extend on it, would that then increase the duration of my summon by a (censored) load?

I don't think ESF (Conj) actually increases the duration of summons besides EDK.

Even with EDK, it would be nice to have it out for that long. Would going with necromancy SF, GSF & ESF extend spell mummy dust forever? So you have a walking wall constantly out.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Since summons are conjuration, if I took Spel Focus Conjuration, then Greater Spell Focus Conuration, then Epic Spell Focus Conjuration, then used a summon spells with extend on it, would that then increase the duration of my summon by a (censored) load?

I don't think ESF (Conj) actually increases the duration of summons besides EDK.

Even with EDK, it would be nice to have it out for that long. Would going with necromancy SF, GSF & ESF extend spell mummy dust forever? So you have a walking wall constantly out.

I don't think extend works on Epic Spells either.

Yurell wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Since summons are conjuration, if I took Spel Focus Conjuration, then Greater Spell Focus Conuration, then Epic Spell Focus Conjuration, then used a summon spells with extend on it, would that then increase the duration of my summon by a (censored) load?

I don't think ESF (Conj) actually increases the duration of summons besides EDK.

Even with EDK, it would be nice to have it out for that long. Would going with necromancy SF, GSF & ESF extend spell mummy dust forever? So you have a walking wall constantly out.

I don't think extend works on Epic Spells either.

Bum.

Azrael wrote:

Auto Quicken is like a hasted speed of casting that cannot be dispelled by anything. A haste spell?...that lasts 2 seconds in a mage duel.

Counter dueling an auto quickened? They can cast haste and chug potions of haste any time they need to. Can also start with a GS scroll before haste and wa-la. (while hostile) A person cannot counter a person in gs 'Until' the gs is broken/used. Casting defensive spells like haste or spell mantles do not break it, and you get one offensive spell so if the person countering you isn't in a spellmantle (or gs) they're doomed.

One mords spell (while in a spell mantle) and the auto quickened wins vs the non auto quickened from the extra spell a round.

The non-autoquicken mage decides to recast haste?...there went an extra round, duel is over by then.

...at least that's how it is with pro mage duelers...one extra spell and its over. It only takes one mistake.

I will say however it's possible to defeat a quickened mage by either making the first move while hasted, or using timestop.

..quickened mages are also quite rare so the timestop every once in awhile might be worth it.

If your going to be an autoquickened mage make sure your Caster Level is high enough to dispel a haste from another high lvl mage or the advantage is lost.

If your dueling as an autoquickened mage vs an autoquickened mage, it's like normal dueling but twice as fast.

actually thats not correct, you cant breach haste (which is what it sounded like you were implying when you said that haste only lasts 2 seconds until mords hits them). You have to hope you dispell it. A dispell cast on an even CL enemy is only a 50% chance of success, not something you want to bet your life on in pvp. And forget it if their CL is higher than yours.

Just fyi cuz it sounds like from your post you rely heavily on it, spell mantles can be breached pretty easily, theyre rather high on the breach list (the breach list is a set list of what spells a breach will remove first). Flame Arrow will also disintegrate a spell mantle. Each arrow is calculated seperately as a third lvl spell. 28CL flame arrow is seven arrows, that eats through a spell mantle as if you cast 7 lvl 3 spells on it, eating through 21 of your shields absorption lvls. The only way a spell mantle can survive a flame arrow, is if you empower the lvl 7 spell mantle, and if you happen to roll a 7 or 8 on the 1d8 part of the spell you will have either 22 or 24 spell absorption lvls available. Not very good odds of that happening though, only a 25% chance. Personally I usually just throw a flame arrow instead of using my mords if all i need to take care of is a spell mantle, even if my opponent happens to be using an empowered version of spell mantle the odds are heavily in my favor.

If you catch the haster without haste up, the autoquicken has an awesome chance of winning, they just got 2 spells off in the round it took you to haste. But if the other mage is hasted already, then the quicken mage has to be reactive, and try to negate the haste (through a dispell or buffing himself), instead of being proactive, which gives the haster a small edge, if they know how to take advantage of it.

A mordenkainen's disjunction at a high caster lever has a good chance of dispelling haste, even better if the person casting has a higher caster level. If it doesn't work the first time its easy to see in how fast the opponent is casting, and with the number of mantels and mords' flying in the air, haste doesn't last long...and even a hasted person without a mantle is as good as dead without protection. Multiple mord's in a duel are good odds haste is gone. "To remove an effect, the caster makes a dispel check of 1d20, +1 per caster level (to a maximum of +40) against a DC of 11 + the spell effect's caster level."

I never said flame arrow couldn't break a mantel, they can and do, and I use flame arrow for that purpose when i need to save mord's (and other other 9th lvl slots) for later. Did ya think i was planning on only using one mantle in a duel? The norm in mage duels (among people who know what they're doing) is to go through those like a kid in a candy shop. Lots of eating to do.

TheNamelessUnknown1 wrote:

If you catch the haster without haste up, the autoquicken has an awesome chance of winning, they just got 2 spells off in the round it took you to haste. But if the other mage is hasted already, then the quicken mage has to be reactive, and try to negate the haste (through a dispell or buffing himself), instead of being proactive, which gives the haster a small edge, if they know how to take advantage of it.

Not so much reactive as it's a fair dueling start, it's even on casting speeds. The haster has a fair chance. Their speeds are matched and it's like normal dueling...until the haste is dispeled.

...there is one way to 'really' pull an advantage though (well two if i count timestop) but I'm gona let people figure it out in game.

In the end, the arcane spellbook is far more overpowered when it comes to damage and removing defences then the divine spellbook.

The first one of you to mention the excuse "but implosion you can't counter with death ward" I'm going to slap back to the stone age. Try hitting a group of targets with its tiny radius and come back to me.

Galenson wrote:

In the end, the arcane spellbook is far more overpowered when it comes to damage and removing defences then the divine spellbook.

The first one of you to mention the excuse "but implosion you can't counter with death ward" I'm going to slap back to the stone age. Try hitting a group of targets with its tiny radius and come back to me.

Yes but they can heal and restore people on a whim, even themselves and their summons or companions. (not saying they do any more spell damages just saying they have defensive spells of healing, if you've fought a group of people and a cleric/druid was there it was much more difficult)

I used to be an empowered junkie.. but then.. I prefer the fact I can set out a gear set knowing that i will get +5 points from my 12 statbuffs so it makes equipment alot easier, specially useful for clerics and even sorcs personally.

Galenson wrote:

snip

There's a damage spell other than Ice-storm to use in PVM in epic?

Clerics can have that too.

Oh and, Divine power.

Gogosmashbot.

Azrael wrote:

*snip*
If your going to be mage make sure your Caster Level is 30.

fixed it for you.

Azrael wrote:

A mordenkainen's disjunction at a high caster lever has a good chance of dispelling haste, even better if the person casting has a higher caster level. If it doesn't work the first time its easy to see in how fast the opponent is casting, and with the number of mantels and mords' flying in the air, haste doesn't last long...and even a hasted person without a mantle is as good as dead without protection. Multiple mord's in a duel are good odds haste is gone. "To remove an effect, the caster makes a dispel check of 1d20, +1 per caster level (to a maximum of +40) against a DC of 11 + the spell effect's caster level."

maximum of +30 on amia, not +40. An even check results in a dispell, so like i said, a 50% chance for an even caster lvl dispell check, not sure what you meant by this exactly, your repeating what i said.....

Azrael wrote:

I never said flame arrow couldn't break a mantel, they can and do, and I use flame arrow for that purpose when i need to save mord's (and other other 9th lvl slots) for later.

when did i ever say that you said flame arrow cant break a spell mantle? I was giving information because you said 'one mords (while in a spell mantle) and the auto quicken wins' as if it was a kill button. I was pointing out thats not necessarily the case, and gave two examples to explain why, one of which was the flame arrows. It wasnt a personal attack on you, sorry if you took it that way.

Dwagin wrote:

Galenson wrote:

snip

There's a damage spell other than Ice-storm to use in PVM in epic?

Clerics can have that too.

Oh and, Divine power.

Gogosmashbot.

Ive found that come epic lvls, the damage of a casters spells is overshadowed by the fighter types. For the long haul in a dungeon, they will out damage you. I always have a few good damage spells prepared for the instances with particularly large spawns that they need some help with, but a mage in epic is more about the other stuff they can do, not the damage usually. The exception would be for taking out the boss, no one gets more dps than a mage spamming spells.

clerics lose some of the utility/damage of a mage, but they gain healing and buffs. Damage isnt as important for a mage to focus on in epic anyways. A cleric can buff your armor, your shield, your weapon, deflection ac, and depending on what domain they took natural ac as well. None of my caster clerics ever needed AC boosting gear except their boots. Mages can buff a +2 dodge ac with mage armor/shadow mage armor.....

Mages will always have more options in a fight though, and caster cleric vrs caster mage is not pretty, spell mantle has no easy way to be defeated by a caster cleric. The highest dispell a caster cleric with 30CL can get is DC 35 and thats if they roll a 20, while a mages opposed check to the dispell will be 41 at 30CL, its impossible for the cleric to dispell the spell mantle, and they dont get anything nifty like flame arrow to eat through it.

What clerics do get is a good disabling spell (hammer of the gods) will save for daze 1d6 rounds thats not mind affecting. And its evocation, all caster clerics should specialize in evocation, almost all of their pvm spells are evocation. They also get harm, and implosion will forever be the envy of mages focusing in necromancy to try to kill people with their wail. The only selling point of wail is it's bigger area, but implosion has a scripted higher DC, and theres no protection against it. There is an argument to be had for caster clerics, they wont be a mage with timestop in a pvp fight, but they have great use in a pvm party. And no cleric is ever incompetent in a fight, they all get at least 18 str, high BAB, +5 weapon, and tons of ab increasing buffs.

For personal AC Anyways, mages can do -quite- well.

Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor

* The bonus granted by this spell consists of

+5 deflection bonus, +5 dodge bonus, +5 armor bonus, and +5 natural armor bonus. The deflection, armor, and natural bonuses do not stack with bonuses of the same type.

Shadow Shield

Description: The caster is shrouded in a cloak of shadow that protects them with the following effects:

* +5 natural AC bonus

Shield

Description: The caster gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC. The caster is also immune to the spell magic missile for the duration of the shield.

Mage armor: +1 dodge.

Haste +4 dodge.

Dwagin wrote:

For personal AC Anyways, mages can do -quite- well.

Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor

* The bonus granted by this spell consists of

+5 deflection bonus, +5 dodge bonus, +5 armor bonus, and +5 natural armor bonus. The deflection, armor, and natural bonuses do not stack with bonuses of the same type.

Shadow Shield

Description: The caster is shrouded in a cloak of shadow that protects them with the following effects:

* +5 natural AC bonus

Shield

Description: The caster gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC. The caster is also immune to the spell magic missile for the duration of the shield.

Mage armor: +1 dodge.

Haste +4 dodge.

oh yea, personally theyre all set with AC buffs, i was looking at it more as what the class offers to a group. An auto-still mage wearing plate armor and a shield using epic mage armor is all set for AC, but the cleric can give all their buffs to the group, most of the mages AC buffs are self only

TheUltimateSin wrote:

Azrael wrote:

*snip*
If your going to be mage make sure your Caster Level is 30.

fixed it for you.

Ummm, isn't it better to grab a level of rogue or something as well?

Dwagin wrote:

For personal AC Anyways, mages can do -quite- well.

Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor

* The bonus granted by this spell consists of

+5 deflection bonus, +5 dodge bonus, +5 armor bonus, and +5 natural armor bonus. The deflection, armor, and natural bonuses do not stack with bonuses of the same type.

Shadow Shield

Description: The caster is shrouded in a cloak of shadow that protects them with the following effects:

* +5 natural AC bonus

Shield

Description: The caster gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC. The caster is also immune to the spell magic missile for the duration of the shield.

Mage armor: +1 dodge.

Haste +4 dodge.

Can clerics get Epic Mage Armour?
At any rate, for everyone in the party they have +5 Shield +5 Deflection +5 Armour, as well as +4 Dodge from Haste.

Yurell wrote:

Can clerics get Epic Mage Armour?

No, only wiz/sorc

Yurell wrote:

At any rate, for everyone in the party they have +5 Shield +5 Deflection +5 Armour, as well as +4 Dodge from Haste.

by 'they', are you refering to clerics with travel domain, or a mage? I'm confused because wiz/sorc do not get all those ac buffs that can be given to party members (most of a mages AC buffs are self only). And clerics only get the haste if they took travel domain, but if your including domain powers then i would add that they can also get +5 natural from plant domain

'They' was indeed a reference to clerics, and I only listed travel because it seems rather popular. Still, +15 AC to everyone in your party is nice.

Quote:

TheUltimateSin wrote:

Quote:

Azrael wrote:
*snip*
If your going to be mage make sure your Caster Level is 30.

fixed it for you.

Ummm, isn't it better to grab a level of rogue or something as well?

Autostillers should definitely take one fighter last level. extra feat+armor proficiencies. I personally take the fighter and/or paladin/blackguard (if its a sorc, and a religious one at that)

totally wish that bards could have epic mage armour *whistles innocently*

For ALL you casters out there!

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