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Bloodeh Mareh
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 07 2009, 15:43 PM 

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I am wanting to make a paladin, but I dont want a nice to everyone puppy kissing pally. I want to make his/her deity Hoar but I am confused about if it is rp viable. Paladin that is all about retribution sounds nice to me. I dont intend to commit evil acts but I want something different and that sounds fun. Can I hear what people think? Lawful doesnt mean following a cities laws only it also includes a persons moral code and possibly a deities dogma. Good also doesnt mean nice.. you can be an angry good person that doesnt take peoples crap.... Just a thought.


 
      
IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 07 2009, 15:50 PM 

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There are a few Hoarites on Amia, I'm sure they have interesting insights.

Here is what I wrote about Hoarite paladins for my Paladins of the Realms series (which I promise will be posted in R&L later, and still improved!)

IronAngel wrote:
Paladins of Hoar

Hoar is a dark, vengeful deity of retribution and poetic justice. Balancing between the influences of Tyr and Shar, and dealing with Beshaba to bestow bad luck upon the deserving, the Doombringer seems an ill-fit patron for paladins. Yet there are those who brave this narrow path and earn a fearsome reputation as uncompromising paragons of justice.

In Chessenta and the southern lands, Hoar is known as Assuran, the god of vengeance. Two temples, The Thunderous Hand of Vengeance in Akanax and the Amphitheater of the First Thunder in Mourktar, rival for leadership of the faith. Paladins from this region are uncommon, but are likely to swear fealty to either one of the temples and act as the priesthood's swordarm to mete out just punishment. In western and northern Faerûn, however, Hoar is considered to be more concerned in poetic justice and fitting punishment rather than vengeance. There, his worship is scattered and the only notable temple is the Hidden Hand of Fate in Archendale. Paladins from these regions are more common, and often act without the strict guidance of the clergy.

It is the Hoarites' duty to learn of injustice and repay it in full. Hoarite paladins often track down wanted villains, but refuse to collect the bounty unless it can be used as fitting compensation for the wronged party. Enacting justice is reward enough for the paladins. Feared and disliked as they are by many less-than-innocent people, they are often the only hope poor folks have of repaying those who've wronged them; whereas bounty-hunters demand gold and local authorities may not find evidence enough to press charges, the Hoarites will listen to the most wretched beggar, assess the truth of the account and decide the most fitting way to enact retribution.

Hoar instructs his followers to uphold the spirit of the law over that of the letter. After catching a criminal, a Tyrran paladin will take the captive for trial in the city where the crime was committed, if at all possible. A Hoarite, however, may suspect the captive will weasel his way free of any charges with his knowledge of local legislation. To make sure justice is done, he will simply administer whatever punishment is fitting on the spot. This has gained Hoarites the reputation of vigilantes, and the disapproval of many town watches and Tyrrans.

As instruments of poetic justice, paladins of Hoar are not without a sense of humour. Hoar teaches that revenge is at its sweetest with an edge of irony. While evil clerics of Hoar might think highly of the irony in feeding to the wolves someone who beat their dog, his paladins aim for punishments that teach a lesson but still compensate the crime committed. Violence will meet violence, but a paladin should avoid excessive violence whenever the foe's offence does not outright demand it. A greedy landowner who's kept his underlings in hunger would be better served with a task of sowing the fields, reaping the harvest and baking bread for his servants, rather than starving him to death; something a more malicious Hoarite might opt to do. On a similar note, retribution has two aspects: punishing injustice, for certain, but also rewarding good deeds. While far from charity workers, Hoarite paladins do their best to give suitable rewards to those they witness doing the just and right thing. If someone offers a room in their home for a travelling Hoarite to rest in, the paladin might later invite the family to spend a few nights in a fine inn in the nearby city, at his expense.

Paladins of Hoar are in a difficult position in their church, because some Hoarites are evil and even their neutral brethren may enact cruelties that would enrage many a goodly faith. Hoar's dogma speaks of an eye for an eye, and his paladins consider it a strict commandment that ensures fairness, whereas some others interpret the maximum severity of punishment more liberally. Especially in powerful temples, church hierarchy is established and paladins might end up subservient to evil clerics. That's one reason paladins are uncommon in southern lands where the rule of the church is stronger. Hoarite paladins in the Heartlands and the North are often loners who interact little with the rest of the clergy. A paladin of Hoar will not fight an evil priest of Hoar, because he knows they both apparently have the deity's favour, whether he likes it or not. The paladin may debate matters of moral and dogma and try to persuade the clergy to condemn excessive cruelty, or simply avoid or refuse to work with the evil clergymembers, though. However, it's not unknown for Hoarite paladins to thwart the plans of Hoarite assassins and other lay members when they go too far. Such incidents occasionally cause strife within the church and set the extremes of the clergy at odds with eachother. Fortunately, the neutral medium is by far the strongest group and has so far managed to maintain balance and relative unity.

Hoar's dogma tells to answer evil with evil, and that ”those who do not respond to attacks against their person or that which they hold dear only invite further attacks” Mercy is a luxury for those who don't take the fight against injustice seriously. On the other hand, it's important to a paladin that something good also results from the punishment. The path of a Hoarite paladin in narrow and paradoxical indeed: excessive cruelty results in a fall from goodness but showing undue mercy at the expense of rightful retribution is a breach of their code just as well. Likewise, working against the church they are sworn to serve is unacceptable, but neither may they actively partake in evil deeds. There are certain practices in the church of Hoar that would seem blasphemous to paladins of deities such as Lathander or Kelemvor: sometimes the victim of violence or betrayal begs with his last breath for a chance to take revenge. A Doombringer of Hoar may grant that wish and raise the victim as a revenant, an undead whose only purpose is to take vengeance upon those who wronged him. Once the task is done, the revenant crumbles and the spirit passes on to afterlife. Similarly, Hoarites may command undead to turn against their creator and crumble once he is destroyed. Paladins of Hoar understand the grim irony and justice in such actions, allowing these undead to complete their task.

There are no actual paladin orders dedicated to Hoar. However, the Fellowship of Poetic Justices is an order of bards, paladins and crusaders of both Tyr and Hoar who seek to spread tales of ironic justice and fight injustice in ways more efficent than violence.


This is based on canon, and I don't think I've made up any facts. Many thoughts are my own, of course. For Amia purposes, it's approved by the DM team and canon, though just one example and venture into canon possibilities. It's not the be-all-end-all of it.


(The original public thread is here, by the way:
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtop ... ins+realms )

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Kjetta
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 07 2009, 15:58 PM 

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The Ecclesia of Hoar is represented in Amia, yus. A bit spread out and inactive, but we are here.

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Bloodeh Mareh
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 07 2009, 16:00 PM 

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Well sounds like this isnt far fetched at all, just is gonna take some disciplined rp.. Soooooo I am gonna make her right now. Hope to see some Hoarites soon enough.


 
      
DarkAngelGirl
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 07 2009, 20:44 PM 

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Bloodeh Mareh wrote:
I am wanting to make a paladin, but I dont want a nice to everyone puppy kissing pally. I want to make his/her deity Hoar but I am confused about if it is rp viable. Paladin that is all about retribution sounds nice to me. I dont intend to commit evil acts but I want something different and that sounds fun. Can I hear what people think? Lawful doesnt mean following a cities laws only it also includes a persons moral code and possibly a deities dogma. Good also doesnt mean nice.. you can be an angry good person that doesnt take peoples crap.... Just a thought.


Well yeah, you can have good ideals, but be a prick and be rude and arrogant, like Qirlan ^_^

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pksurvivor
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 07 2009, 20:53 PM 



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consorts with beshaba! do it! do it!


 
      
Dakotaen
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 07 2009, 20:56 PM 

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DarkAngelGirl wrote:
Bloodeh Mareh wrote:
I am wanting to make a paladin, but I dont want a nice to everyone puppy kissing pally. I want to make his/her deity Hoar but I am confused about if it is rp viable. Paladin that is all about retribution sounds nice to me. I dont intend to commit evil acts but I want something different and that sounds fun. Can I hear what people think? Lawful doesnt mean following a cities laws only it also includes a persons moral code and possibly a deities dogma. Good also doesnt mean nice.. you can be an angry good person that doesnt take peoples crap.... Just a thought.


Well yeah, you can have good ideals, but be a prick and be rude and arrogant, like Qirlan ^_^


Qirlan <3

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Dramatic_Prince
 
PostPosted: Thu, May 07 2009, 20:57 PM 

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I know someone else with a Hoar paladin.

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DarkAngelGirl
 
PostPosted: Fri, May 08 2009, 1:47 AM 

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Darn those whore paladins

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Yurell
 
PostPosted: Fri, May 08 2009, 2:09 AM 

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Remember that there are two sides to the Paladin as well - Law and Good. Live for the moral ambiguity that arises when the two conflict! :P

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Kezman
 
PostPosted: Fri, May 08 2009, 12:57 PM 



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couldnt you sorta play the paladin as a inquisitor or witch hunter sort person always pictured them as set in their moral ways and faith but are damn ruthless and bad when it comes to doing what they believe is good and for justice??

asking this cause i thougth about a paladin like that before!


 
      
Yurell
 
PostPosted: Fri, May 08 2009, 13:16 PM 

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Sounds like on the risky edge of being a Greyguard to me (which isn't implemented on this server, so you're looking at a Fall if you do anything wrong in that pursuit for justice).
However, it is fun to play a character perpetually standing on the edge of a precipice.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Fri, May 08 2009, 20:54 PM 

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Hoar, being a hardassed LN, doesn't make for great paladins, IMO. But they're allowed.

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IronAngel
 
PostPosted: Fri, May 08 2009, 21:15 PM 

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It's probably a character that's doomed to Fall sooner or later, yeah. I guess that's the charm of it for some, exploring the boundaries of paladinhood before a tragic end. Playing a Hoarite, IMO, shouldn't be used as an excuse to be an "almost bad paladin".

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Kjetta
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 0:20 AM 

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Bravely, I disagree. I think Hoar Paladins make the best kind of paladins ever!!! And the falling bit, don't get me started!!!

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Swallow the Stars
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 0:36 AM 

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Personally, the alignment of the deity in question - as long as it allows for Paladins - shouldn't be the real issue with making this Paladin. Helm is Lawful Neutral, and it's fairly easy to connect the Helmite faith with Paladin-y-ness.

What I would worry about is that tidbit about "retribution and poetic justice", under the Hoarite ethos. It's pretty easy to see where a Paladin could go from being an Avenger to being just plain Vengeful. One has roots in altruism, and the other has its roots in selfishness (at least, from a "black and white", typical moral standpoint).

Honestly, roleplaying a Hoarite Paladin seems like a significant challenge, and only someone who is completely confident in their roleplaying ability should even attempt doing so.

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Yurell
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 0:38 AM 

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I believe the 'hardarse' was more Tormak's point than the LN

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Magnum Opera
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 0:41 AM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
Hoar, being a hardassed LN, doesn't make for great paladins, IMO. But they're allowed.


Doesn't help that they made him a LE exarch of Bane in 4e. :?


 
      
Yurell
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 0:44 AM 

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Magnum Opera wrote:
TormakSaber wrote:
Hoar, being a hardassed LN, doesn't make for great paladins, IMO. But they're allowed.


Doesn't help that they made him a LE exarch of Bane in 4e. :?


Fortunately fourth ed doesn't count for this.

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Swallow the Stars
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 1:16 AM 

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Yurell wrote:
I believe the 'hardarse' was more Tormak's point than the LN


I re-read it and gathered that. Yar, his hardarseness would make for a difficult time with values such as compassion, mercy, forgiveness, meekness...

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Magnum Opera
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 1:20 AM 

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Yeah, I know, but it kinda reinforces the point that LE/LN types have a way easier time working with Hoar's dogma; as a LG Paladin, you'll be facing a lot of moral obstacles and issues (such as having a Blackguard as a fellow Hoarite), especially conflicts of the dogma with the *standard* Paladin code. Clerics and shady BG types don't have that stick up their arse.

With that said, Paladins of Hoar are awesome if you can find that oh-so-small sweet spot of LG Hoarites.


 
      
The Incognitos
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 1:26 AM 

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Make it a Paladin/Ranger. That would be really cool and make for an awesome loner vigilante.

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Azrael
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 1:36 AM 

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Dakotaen wrote:
DarkAngelGirl wrote:
Bloodeh Mareh wrote:
I am wanting to make a paladin, but I dont want a nice to everyone puppy kissing pally. I want to make his/her deity Hoar but I am confused about if it is rp viable. Paladin that is all about retribution sounds nice to me. I dont intend to commit evil acts but I want something different and that sounds fun. Can I hear what people think? Lawful doesnt mean following a cities laws only it also includes a persons moral code and possibly a deities dogma. Good also doesnt mean nice.. you can be an angry good person that doesnt take peoples crap.... Just a thought.


Well yeah, you can have good ideals, but be a prick and be rude and arrogant, like Qirlan ^_^


Qirlan <3


This ^^ where the heck is he nowadays? I miss him. :P

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Yurell
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 1:41 AM 

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He quit :(

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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 2:13 AM 

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Paladins are interesting for me because they're potentially the most evil characters a player can create. Paladins are capable of commiting horrible acts of destruction if they think evil's involved or if their deity commands them to without any consequences becaue they're "doing the right thing." They're allowed to:

-Commit genocide on "evil" species like orcs and Drow without moral question.
-Prosecute and execute others simply for worshipping an opposing religion
-Stop anyone who opposes their religious crusade.

...and they're zealously organised and work well together because they "face a common cause." Something self-ambitious evil characters can't live up to because they're too busy looking out for their own necks.


If a Paladin's played well, they can be the biggest bastard on the server. You just have to pick the right deity with the right cause and interpret the doghma in a way fitting for it.

For example, a paladin of Illmater can interpret his deity's doghma that to help those who suffer, they need to utterly eradicate those who bring suffering upon others so people don't suffer in the first place.

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Last edited by Galenson on Sat, May 09 2009, 2:20 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Swallow the Stars
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 2:17 AM 

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Galenson wrote:
Paladins are interesting for me because they're potentially the most evil characters a player can create. Paladins are capable of commiting horrible acts of destruction if they think evil's involved or if their deity commands them to without any consequences becaue they're "doing the right thing." They're allowed to:

-Commit genocide on "evil" species like orcs and Drow without moral question.
-Prosecute and execute others simply for worshipping an opposing religion
-Stop anyone who opposes their religious crusade.

...and they're zealously organised and work well together because they "face a common cause." Something self-ambitious evil characters can't live up to because they're too busy looking out for their own necks.


If a Paladin's played well, they can be the biggest bastard on the server. You just have to pick the right deity with the right cause.


Wow, moral relativism.

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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 2:26 AM 

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I'm not trying to bring up the arguement that Paladins are evil. I'm just saying that a paladin doesn't need to be a character who smiles, gives coins to the poor all day, cit chats about gossip with the lesbians in Cordor and shows mercy to everyone.


They can be as heartless as you wish if you play them correctly. Evil isn't the only entity that uses fear to keep their populations in line, paladins are just as scary as a demon/devil but in a different way.

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Yurell
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 2:29 AM 

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Don't need to be Exalted to be a Paladin, just LG and not breaking the code.

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sylvan_shadow
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 3:41 AM 

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I really like this idea too. Paladins tend to be seen as "the knight in shining armor, do-no-wrong" archetype, and it would certainly be nice to see the somewhat darker version of the class. A paladin of Hoar certainly fits that bill. I see a "dark and brooding savior" type instead of your usual shining paragon of piety. The RP will be tough, but definitely rewarding. Have fun!

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Yurell
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 3:44 AM 

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Just be careful not to fall ... unless you can convince a DM to let you play a Greyguard :P That would be awesome

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Bloodeh Mareh
 
PostPosted: Sat, May 09 2009, 3:50 AM 

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I actually did this for the challenge of the rp. I think this is gonna be a really tough one for me or anyone to pull off and I am trying to find every bit of lore I can on them to make sure I do it right.. I dont want to play an almost evil paladin by any means. Just a no nonsense one that is different than all the other ones I see around. I want a real challenge and I think this is gonna be it. Definitely is going to make me stay on my toes..... Anyway, I hope to see the rest of the Hoarites ingame so that I can learn more about how the canon is played out here on this server. I have her on my alt acount "Spawn of Takhisis" so if any of you see the bald female Chessentan Hoarite dont be shy, I am looking for you guys and need some more info on the religion and the rp style of the Hoarites....


 
      
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