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Detecting stealth/invis: Logic or game mechanics?
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Author:  Vaylek [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 4:20 AM ]
Post subject:  Detecting stealth/invis: Logic or game mechanics?
I know the answer is probably game mechanics, but I'll ask anyway.

How do Umber Hulks and characters polymorphed into Umber Hulks percieve stealthed characters on Amia? Do they see them, smell them, or tremorsense them?

In PnP D+D you can never hide from an Umber Hulk if you are within 60 feet and have contact with the ground, because of their keen connection with the earth (tremorsense). What it doesn't give is a visual picture of whatever is there, just its presence based on their weight.

So the Umber Hulk knows that a medium sized creature is slowly moving towards it from the rear, but it doesn't know the creature's race, if the creature is armed, or their hair colour for that matter. Just that its there and (being an Umber Hulk) its probably food.

So what happens when an intelligent mage takes Umber Hulk form and gains their perks? In D+D it would be the same, they percieve the presence but not the appearance. In NWN the stealthed character's model along with their name appears to the caster.

Does that mean we go with the game mechanic and instantly know just WHO is sneaking up on us or spying on us from invisibility, or should we RP that we are only aware SOMEONE is there?

I guess this carries onto the question of when we HEAR a stealthed character but dont SPOT them, should we know just who is there or again only that someone is there?

Side question on that one. Can invisible characters running or walking normally be detected with listen?
Author:  Shrewd [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 4:26 AM ]
Post subject: 
I think on Amia it is assumed that the Umber Hulk can build a mental picture based on the vibrations. WYSIWYG, for whatever the reason, it has True Sight.
Author:  Vaylek [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 4:27 AM ]
Post subject: 
And this isn't an attempt by me as a player to gain new things to whine about to people who detect my SD with umber hulk form, I just want to know what the physical terms of this world are for the purposes of my RP.

If invisibility means you can't be seen OR heard, that's something thats important for a character to know.

If Umber Hulk form means you effectively gain spot +1000 for the purpose of knowing just who is standing in that alleyway watching you from the shadows, thats important to know.
Author:  herkles [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 4:31 AM ]
Post subject: 
and this is why I believe the scrolls that can turn people into umber hulks should be super duper rare.
Author:  Shrewd [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 4:47 AM ]
Post subject: 
Well I think it's the sort of situation where you -could- say 'Umber Hulks can know you're there, but not know who you are, description, etc'. However, you're always going to get players who don't know the rule, accidently metagame, and end up causing you problems anyway. With most of these sorts of things it's assumed WYSIWYG.

In terms of how you personally RP it, it could be done in many ways. Totally up to the person who becomes the Umber Hulk I think. More often than not, you're going to get people who see every single detail of your SD through that form.

Also, whilst in invisibility you cannot be seen(Unless by Dragon/Umberhulk/Rakshasa), but you can be heard.
Author:  BlackDahlya [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 4:49 AM ]
Post subject: 
Last I checked, you cannot build a mental picture.

Especially because usually the character will be wearing a helmet and clothes and name tags do not instantly mean you can know their faces. And the next time you see them, they might be wearing different clothes and unhelmed and that does not grant instant recognition.

I always RPed in Umberhulk form that if the thing spying doesn't move, I have no idea it is there. And if it moves, I know something's there, but not what.
Author:  Vaylek [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 4:56 AM ]
Post subject: 
Marauth wrote:
Also, whilst in invisibility you cannot be seen(Unless by Dragon/Umberhulk/Rakshasa), but you can be heard.


Really?! Wow I don't think my character has ever detected an invisible mover with listen, and he has over 25 of it!

@BlackDahlya: Well I guess that's your choice to RP with logic, perhaps a futile choice however when the whole world goes against it xD
Author:  Falling Spider [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 5:01 AM ]
Post subject: 
They have to be close to you, at which point you see them anyway.
(Fun fact, that causes client side lag for the people seeing you, and can ever crash them, casters that run around invisible constantly.)

But yeah, one would would (and should, honestly) assume that invisibility only makes you invisible, even though by NWN standards you have a million hide and move silently till you get real close or have a see invis cast at you.
Author:  BlackDahlya [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 5:03 AM ]
Post subject: 
Vaylek wrote:
Marauth wrote:
Also, whilst in invisibility you cannot be seen(Unless by Dragon/Umberhulk/Rakshasa), but you can be heard.


Really?! Wow I don't think my character has ever detected an invisible mover with listen, and he has over 25 of it!

@BlackDahlya: Well I guess that's your choice to RP with logic, perhaps a futile choice however when the whole world goes against it xD


I don't mind. I feel dirty doing otherwise. ^^;
Author:  Uberuce [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 6:07 AM ]
Post subject: 
My take on it is that stealth in NWN is like the 1st level Cleric spell, Sanctuary; they can actually see you, but there's a mental block that stops them from handing that data to the rest of your brain. Instead of a Will save, it's Spot/Listen that you use to pierce that mental block. That's an aberration compared to PnP lore of stealth, but it fits what NWN does much better.

When you use Listen then that mental block is pierced and you can see then with your eyes just dandy. Assuming there is clear line of sight.
Author:  Ts_ [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 8:49 AM ]
Post subject: 
Vaylek wrote:
I don't think my character has ever detected an invisible mover with listen, and he has over 25 of it!


Uberuce once mentioned that you need See Invis, to hear invisible stealthers ... (Clarification: If someone is invisible _and_ in stealth mode and your listens beats their move silently, you will still not detect them!) Now, I'm not sure what that means for Invisibility alone, but it might be that you still need See Invis to be allowed the listen check that would overcome their Invis ... :/

Best thing to do: Try it out yourself and tell us!

Regards
Ts
Author:  Uberuce [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 9:40 AM ]
Post subject: 
You need See Invis to detect someone more than a few feet away, even if you have 110 Listen and they are a zero-ranks Gold Dwarf tank clattering around in fullplate'n'tower at 6DEX.
Author:  Vaylek [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 10:15 AM ]
Post subject: 
That is so dumb. Like that really makes no... ugh...

more power to mages!
Author:  Uberuce [ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 10:56 AM ]
Post subject: 
Well, yes, but it's not like See Invis is a hard thing to come by for anyone.
Author:  Galenson [ Tue, Apr 28 2009, 8:53 AM ]
Post subject: 
If you play as a monstrous race or shift into an animal with an extreme keen sense of smell, you can get away with applying the logic that you've caught onto the sneaker/shadowprancing ballerina's scent.

This works against Invisibility's "no sound, no sight" adaptation. Unfortunately it won't work against GS because Amia's IC reasoning for GS is that it affects the senses.
Author:  Kjetta [ Tue, Apr 28 2009, 9:16 AM ]
Post subject: 
I'd be very cautious about the scent thing. Do it only with conscent from the player you are using it on.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Tue, Apr 28 2009, 17:40 PM ]
Post subject: 
Ughhh please do not do scent stuff without the EXPLICIT permission of everyone involved, and maybe a DM.
Author:  Crowsterf [ Wed, Apr 29 2009, 11:11 AM ]
Post subject: 
Kjetta wrote:
I'd be very cautious about the scent thing. Do it only with conscent from the player you are using it on.


And

TormakSaber wrote:
Ughhh please do not do scent stuff without the EXPLICIT permission of everyone involved, and maybe a DM.


Without the please
Author:  Yurell [ Wed, Apr 29 2009, 11:32 AM ]
Post subject: 
Vaylek wrote:
That is so dumb. Like that really makes no... ugh...


I agree. Very strongly.
Blame NWN.
Author:  Moridan_X [ Wed, Apr 29 2009, 20:04 PM ]
Post subject: 
dude, its not invisibility, its concealment

no one knows how to RP invisibility on amia.

one time i was walking invisibly///*cough* i mean concealed in cordor and someone ran past me, they instantaneously stopped to use their faded ball to shout my position. all of cordors epics at the time used their own faded balls or see invis things, it was retarded.

they also all recognize me from that point on. >.>

Quote:
Well, yes, but it's not like See Invis is a hard thing to come by for anyone

this is a complete ooc backup for anyone who detects an invisible person so they can say they clearly see them

now, about hearing a person while invisible? thats like... erm.. interesting. i would think a bumbling city to help the invisible person move silently, but i guess you can't fool any player's extreme sense of hearing and sight, since they all see invisible people

when i see an invisible person, i generally just ignore them and let them be invisible because honestly, i don't like god game rp directed at me.

it makes me lol a lot though to see someone emote *watches moridan_x's character closely as if he is suspicious of him* just to alert everyone else in the entire area that there is an invisible person there
Author:  TormakSaber [ Wed, Apr 29 2009, 20:05 PM ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
no one knows how to RP invisibility on amia.

one time i was walking invisibly///*cough* i mean concealed in cordor and someone ran past me, they instantaneously stopped to use their faded ball to shout my position. all of cordors epics at the time used their own faded balls or see invis things, it was retarded.



"What the hell? I just heard this person go by me but I can't see them, hang on, I have a see invisibility trinket *uses it*"

Perfectly IC.
Author:  Uberuce [ Wed, Apr 29 2009, 20:27 PM ]
Post subject: 
Moridan_X wrote:
no one knows how to RP invisibility on amia.
Or.....they do, and it's you that doesn't?
Author:  Moridan_X [ Wed, Apr 29 2009, 20:53 PM ]
Post subject: 
yeah, ur right, i dont know how
Author:  Uberuce [ Wed, Apr 29 2009, 21:02 PM ]
Post subject: 
Ah, well that's nice and easy to fix. If you can perceive them, so can your character. If not, not.
Author:  Phantom-D [ Wed, Apr 29 2009, 21:10 PM ]
Post subject: 
If some character can clean out a Beholder's Lair do you really think they are cheating when they bump into you and use a Faded Ball?

Realize epic characters can easily see through 300 gold potions.
Author:  Yurell [ Thu, Apr 30 2009, 0:29 AM ]
Post subject: 
I would love it if invis forced everyone around you to make listen checks vs your MS and we got a message that said "You hear an invisible character nearby" or something.

Although I bet that would be really laggy ... but I'm not a scripter and so have no idea.
Author:  Uberuce [ Thu, Apr 30 2009, 10:25 AM ]
Post subject: 
Doesn't seem needed; sometimes you're just shooting the breeze and don't care who's listening, in which case it'd be pointless lag. Sometimes you do care, in which case you utterly PHALE for not using the bajillion means of piercing Invis.

I see my job as Dev as punishing you for your PHALE. Harshly, and preferably fatally.

*goes off to replace children's bicycle stabilisers with landmines and fill inflatable armbands with mercury*
Author:  Ts_ [ Sat, May 02 2009, 11:07 AM ]
Post subject: 
Why does steatlh end immedialtely, when I possess my familiar? I suppose, if I would really possess it I couldn't focus on hiding anymore ... but for the usual acting that the familiar does "on its own", it's rather annoying. [/random rant]
Author:  Cpt.Devistation [ Sat, May 02 2009, 11:31 AM ]
Post subject: 
Hrm well i have played in umberhulk form and seen people stealthed and they have complained but i realy hate when im my sd and i rp im IN a TREE not moving and the umberhulk can SEE me cause of some reson or outher.

As my char knows ICLY that umberhulks have tremmor sence i dont understand as my sd is a ranger how staying in a small patch of forest or climbing on a wall so does the umberhulk have vision of you when you RP that your in a tree overseeing preceedings of two randoms talking and one shifts into umberhulk form to detect invis units? I can understamd a dragon but some of the people on nwn abuse the umberhulk shift way to much.....

Comments anyone?
Author:  Uncle-Opustus [ Sat, May 02 2009, 11:46 AM ]
Post subject: 
Just try to live with it.
Author:  Dramatic_Prince [ Sat, May 02 2009, 12:02 PM ]
Post subject: 
If your heart is beating, it creates vibrations?
Author:  The Great Equalizer [ Sat, May 02 2009, 12:04 PM ]
Post subject: 
Solution: Just carry around lots of polymorph potions so that even if they try to pull the all seeing Umberhulk *Bam* "Oh look it's only a very sneaky penguin/cow".
Author:  StandingBehindYou [ Sat, May 02 2009, 12:21 PM ]
Post subject: 
Dramatic_Prince wrote:
If your heart is beating, it creates vibrations?


Not to mention that most living things breathe.

(This leaves the question of polymorphing into undead, for which I can't really make up an explanation.)
Author:  Yurell [ Sat, May 02 2009, 12:37 PM ]
Post subject: 
Dramatic_Prince wrote:
If your heart is beating, it creates vibrations?


From what I could find when I was requesting for Jhae to be able to hear a heartbeat, the sound of a heartbeat is -10dB at 0.15 metres.
Author:  Vaylek [ Sat, May 02 2009, 12:38 PM ]
Post subject: 
Alright, one more question regarding this topic.

If someone in your PARTY is in umberhulk form and the enemy SD is nearby, do you percieve the SD?

My feeling says the answer here is yes, but just checking.
Author:  StandingBehindYou [ Sat, May 02 2009, 12:46 PM ]
Post subject: 
Vaylek wrote:
Alright, one more question regarding this topic.

If someone in your PARTY is in umberhulk form and the enemy SD is nearby, do you percieve the SD?

My feeling says the answer here is yes, but just checking.


What the heck? They don't appear on your screen, so there's no IC or OOC reason to claim you perceive them.

That's like, "If I'm deaf, but someone else in my party isn't deaf, can I hear things?"
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