AMIA ARCHIVE :: View topic - When ingame stuff referances earth cultures...

But it is an interesting question, because DnD/NwN obviously tries to keep blatant earth references somewhat at bay; even if it's impossible.

Quick question!

How do the Shou fit into Forgotten Realms? They're neighbours to the Tuigan, and I've always seen them as Imperial Chinese, with the Tuigan being Mongolians. Especially because of the Dragonwall!

Are these two groups of peoples part of the Kara-Tur group? Or are they seperate?

// I was wandering about condor earlyer on and I found the chinese themed resturant near the nomad, made me feel real hungry so I IC bought a chicken chow mein or something, and I realised if I was RPing at the time, would I call it a chinese, an oriental style resturant, I don't know, please clear this up for me, im very confused//

Author:	tao_myst [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 12:55 PM ]
Post subject:	When ingame stuff referances earth cultures...
// I was wandering about condor earlyer on and I found the chinese themed resturant near the nomad, made me feel real hungry so I IC bought a chicken chow mein or something, and I realised if I was RPing at the time, would I call it a chinese, an oriental style resturant, I don't know, please clear this up for me, im very confused//

Author:	Nekhy [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 12:59 PM ]
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Kara-Tur is the word you're looking for. In essence, yes, it's a Chinese restaurant. Just like Kara-Tur is China and Japan added to the canon lore of FR. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-Tur

Author:	Kjetta [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 13:04 PM ]
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You case in question is easy to solve, because "chineese" has a counterpart in the Forgotten Realms; it's an Kara-Turan restaurant. But it is an interesting question, because DnD/NwN obviously tries to keep blatant earth references somewhat at bay; even if it's impossible. Basically, it's just a matter of preference where you draw the line. Commonly, you don't say "Jesus Christ!" when something crazy happens, but few would scoff if you ICly refered to a char as narcissistic, even if there never was a Narcissus in the Forgotten Realms.

Author:	Sokar Rostau [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 13:20 PM ]
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Quote: But it is an interesting question, because DnD/NwN obviously tries to keep blatant earth references somewhat at bay; even if it's impossible. Wait, what? What Forgotten Realms have you been playing Kjetta? There was a time when FR was a very well made, thought out and original world. But someone then decided it wasn't enough, that the world needed to be expanded. This person, or persons, had all the creativity of a pair of scissors and copy/pasted ancient Egypt and other cultures, slightly changed the spelling of some names and called the countries things like "Kara-Tur", "Mulhorand", "Maztica" and "Al-Qadim". Blergh.

Author:	Kjetta [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 13:24 PM ]
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Oh, I am well aware, hehe. I meant exact, literal references. After all, they have bothered to invent a few new names here and there. Not everywhere, of course, but still.

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Author:	Nekhy [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 13:31 PM ]
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Well, I rather like those continents. It's not like the rest of Faerun isn't based on RL countries... they're just far more familiar to us Westerners so they seem just... normal to us. There's Greece and the Mediterranean, there's very clear medieval kingdoms like Cormyr and Neverwinter. There's gypsies, there's Goths and there's a Scandinavia. Maztica, Zakhara, Mulhorand and Kara-Tur just get the flak for some reason.

Author:	Uberuce [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 13:38 PM ]
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I don't ven know how many words are invalid in DnD because they reference Earth places or people. Thug, hooligan, lesbian, sandwich, crap, bugger, spartan, philistine...

Author:	Nekhy [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 13:39 PM ]
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Well, I'd debate the correctness of those names you wrote there, because of the transliteration problems of Middle-Egyptian to English. And then we could start a debate which original names are correct, too. The Old Kingdom versions? The Upper or Lower Egyptian versions? Then we also have the Greek period, when the Greek names were the true names of the gods, even in Egypt. Or: not worth worrying about. I am sad about them not including all the deities, though. Greek or Middle-Egyptian names.

Author:	Infernal_Pain [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 13:45 PM ]
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Yeah yeah, all those examples above are nothing compared to this: The Shining Hand monastery in Vaasa! I'm telling you, there's not a friggin' Shining Hand monastery here!

Author:	555444333 [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 18:00 PM ]
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Vaasa is IMO the best ripoff of any location name ever. >.>

Author:	Shrewd [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 20:01 PM ]
Post subject:
Quick question! How do the Shou fit into Forgotten Realms? They're neighbours to the Tuigan, and I've always seen them as Imperial Chinese, with the Tuigan being Mongolians. Especially because of the Dragonwall! Are these two groups of peoples part of the Kara-Tur group? Or are they seperate?

Author:	Phantom-D [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 20:04 PM ]
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Any things that allow more diversity is a good thing. Even if they were "undercooked" it allows the player to figure it out and flesh it out. That can't be too bad.

Author:	IronAngel [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 20:16 PM ]
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Marauth wrote: Quick question! How do the Shou fit into Forgotten Realms? They're neighbours to the Tuigan, and I've always seen them as Imperial Chinese, with the Tuigan being Mongolians. Especially because of the Dragonwall! Are these two groups of peoples part of the Kara-Tur group? Or are they seperate? Kara-Tur, simply enough, is the name of a continent that mirrors mythical Asia. As an ethnicity, I'm not sure what the term Shou encompasses. I'm heading to bed, so I can't check the books either. However, Shou Lung is the largest nation on the continent of Kara-Tur and, indeed, on the whole planet. The Endless Wastes, home of the Tuigan people, is what seperates Kara-Tur and Faerûn from eachother. (Zakhara is also connected.) I don't really consider the Wastes a part of Faerûn proper, because the Sunrise Mountains on their western edge make for an obvious natural border to the continent. I would imagine the Shou people are the racial stock of western/middle Kara-Tur, whereas the people in the east/south-east might be different. The reason people dislike the other continents is because they're such a blatant rip-off, almost a direct translation. They weren't even designed for the Realms in the first place, AFAIK, but were "conveniently" slapped on in the exact same locations around Faerûn that Earth continents are in relation to Europe. Faerûn has some nations modelled after the real world, but it's far from a rip-off (any moreso than any fantasy), despite some of the damage TSR managed to do to the setting.

Author:	blackvswhite [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 21:00 PM ]
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Marauth wrote: Quick question! How do the Shou fit into Forgotten Realms? They're neighbours to the Tuigan, and I've always seen them as Imperial Chinese, with the Tuigan being Mongolians. Especially because of the Dragonwall! Are these two groups of peoples part of the Kara-Tur group? Or are they seperate? dragonwall? so you're telling me they even ripped off the great wall of china? shoot the man who decided on that.

Author:	Mr. Hackums [ Wed, Mar 18 2009, 21:40 PM ]
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I personally dont see why taking influence from Real World countries is such a bad thing. Yes, it adds diversity. How else would we fit the katana into our game without the creation of a continent like Kara-Tur? And besides, can you really blame the creators? What kinds of influence, even from the subconscious would they have been receiving when making Faerun? They would have real world ideals, locations, etc. in their head. BUT, I do think the "Dragonwall" is just a lack of effort. Besides, Real World countries have, in you havent noticed, been centered around conflict after conflict, be it internal or external. I think it'd be safe to bet that if we transposed Real Worldly Influenced cities/countries, that conflict would safely arrise. Also, isnt it fun to play around, acting like your from another country, somewhat similar to one in the Real World? I think it helps the roleplayers familiarize with such a fantastical world, allowing them to roleplay to their finest potential. All in all, can you imagine cities and towns -not- influenced by the real world? Space towns, maybe. I think the only thing sketchy is the transposed cultures + locations simutaneously. But I dont need to worry about it.

Author:	IronAngel [ Thu, Mar 19 2009, 15:35 PM ]
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We're not talking about influence, Hackums. We're talking about rather accurate geographic copying, importing complete religions (Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto and Buddhism are all present in Kara-Tur), countries named Tabot (a mountainous holy land) and Koryo (a peninsula extending from Shou Lung towards Kozakura, a Japan-themed island). If you think the Dragonwall is lazy, you should get the Kara-Tur game supplement and claw your eyes out. The only thing that saves it is that it wasn't originally Forgotten Realms. Kara-Tur was first introduced in Oriental Adventures, as a setting for oriental roleplaying with specialized rules, races and classes. The book was written by Gary Gygax himself. Only later was it added onto Toril, when FR became the other major D&D setting next to Grayhawk.

Author:	Mr. Hackums [ Thu, Mar 19 2009, 19:34 PM ]
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Oh man... I didnt know it was -that- bad. Cry I didnt want to lose faith in FR...I tried not to, I really did... sniffle

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Author:	Yurell [ Thu, Mar 19 2009, 21:07 PM ]
Post subject:	Re: When ingame stuff referances earth cultures...
tao_myst wrote: // I was wandering about condor earlyer on and I found the chinese themed resturant near the nomad, made me feel real hungry so I IC bought a chicken chow mein or something, and I realised if I was RPing at the time, would I call it a chinese, an oriental style resturant, I don't know, please clear this up for me, im very confused// So in short there is a place called Kara-Tur in Forgotten Realms that is not cough China.