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From reading threads using the search engine I ahve understood that assassins Death Attack is quite useless against PC's due to Freedom items and easy-to-get +fortitude items, so I am wondring if the same goes for monsters?

At the high end of the game, are monsters also buffed with so much fortitude and freedom items/effects that assassins will have a hard time being anything else than rogues without epic dodge? Or can an assassin be a usefull part of an adventuring group at the higher levels?

(Not that assassins would hire themselves out as assassins to a group, but thats another question)

QPR wrote:

From reading threads using the search engine I ahve understood that assassins Death Attack is quite useless against PC's due to Freedom items and easy-to-get +fortitude items, so I am wondring if the same goes for monsters?

It's hardly useless in either PvP or PvM. It just doesn't end the game very often. You have to pick targets carefully, in any event. In PvM, it can be very useful for incapacitating key monsters in spawns before they can use nasty abilities (EG: Quagmire Lizard Shamans, Brog Orc Warlocks).

There are other perks to the Assassin Class, too, if you can find them. I'm sure my character would show them to you ICly.

Sins work pretty good for -most- monsters in the module.

They should add some fancy effect for the Death Attack, since it sucks bollocks now. Yush. But then again, assassins are assassins! They would wait for the character to have a bath and attack meanwhile they're brushing their groins.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

They should add some fancy effect for the Death Attack, since it sucks bollocks now. Yush. But then again, assassins are assassins! They would wait for the character to have a bath and attack meanwhile they're brushing their groins.

Catch them nekkid!

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

They should add some fancy effect for the Death Attack, since it sucks bollocks now. Yush. But then again, assassins are assassins! They would wait for the character to have a bath and attack meanwhile they're brushing their groins.

Catch them nekkid!

Backstab them from behind!

Except that everyone who lives on or has ever even briefly visited the isle of Amia knows that before you ever ever ever *ever* EVER do anything, such as bathe, talk, sit somewhere alone, have a meeting, attend a class, whisper something, or even give someone a “telling glance”, you have to use huge amounts of powerful magic to morph your entire body into that of an enourmous beast, one that you know all about harnessing their innate powers, so you can sense any person or people who may be there unnoticed at the time.

And once you change back, you will still know where those people are, due to the lingering effects of the powerful spell that any knave with a bit of trickery in him can use.

Assassin: harder to pull off than you think.

aurelius311 wrote:

Assassin: harder to pull off than you think.

Indeed, takes a mixture of good opportunities, skill, and effective planning

get the sorc/pally bastard as he begins his buffing with armor removed

heh heh heh...

could someone put up a decent assassin build in the build topic plz?

EDIT: oh wait, sorc/pallies get monstrous saves, don't they...

aurelius311 wrote:

Except that everyone who lives on or has ever even briefly visited the isle of Amia knows that before you ever ever ever *ever* EVER do anything, such as bathe, talk, sit somewhere alone, have a meeting, attend a class, whisper something, or even give someone a “telling glance”, you have to use huge amounts of powerful magic to morph your entire body into that of an enourmous beast, one that you know all about harnessing their innate powers, so you can sense any person or people who may be there unnoticed at the time.

And once you change back, you will still know where those people are, due to the lingering effects of the powerful spell that any knave with a bit of trickery in him can use.

Assassin: harder to pull off than you think.

The best sneakers aren't necessarily the ones with the most hide ranks. I've seen several beautiful instances where Poly-Self Scrolls and Pseudodragon Familiars have Failed Miserably; all thanks to someone who uses the hide skill intelligently.

if you are hiding, and someone goes Umber Hulk on you, but you arent in the line of sight (around a corner, say), do you pop up on their screen?

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

They should add some fancy effect for the Death Attack, since it sucks bollocks now. Yush. But then again, assassins are assassins! They would wait for the character to have a bath and attack meanwhile they're brushing their groins.

Carter and I lobbied for a change to the PnP Death Attack

aurelius311 wrote:

if you are hiding, and someone goes Umber Hulk on you, but you arent in the line of sight (around a corner, say), do you pop up on their screen?

Not unless they've also got listen high enough to detect you anyway; but if that was the case then they wouldn't be shifting into an Umber-hulk, now would they?

Found that link: http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtop ... ath+attack

Here's a tip.

Pickpocket is the most underused skill in the game, even parry is used more then pickpocket. Now why this is the case, I have no idea. Since pickpocket allows for many oppertunties of assination. Lets give an example.

The target has a belt of agility on that contains the enchantment "freedom", he also has some rings with extremely high fortitude rolls. The assassin in question is a master pick pocket among being an epic level assassin (the class, yes). What do you do?

Well most people would likely try and death attack the target, which of course is a complete waste of time since the target has 41 fortitude with all his items on. Which means because while your standing DC for Death Attack may be 41, it doesn't include a d20 roll (Which is insane by the way), so the Death Attack will fail no matter what.

So what you then do is the following:
Find the target.
Organise to Pickpocket the targets rings and cut the belt off.
If he notices, death attack, if he doesn't, run on ahead and ambush.

The chance of a death attack succeeding is quite high now, since this bugger no longer has his pieces of jewerly which contains +3 fort on each, thus lowering the targets fort to 32. Now here's another slightly humourous method.

Instead of pickpocketing to take, pickpocket to put something in. Such as replacing the targets health potion with a poison potion of the same name and disctiption, or even better, dump a few "explosive devices" in that pack and enjoy.

actually, the best way to kill your target is to hit them with your insane sneak attack/death attack damage, then run around the corner, let them chase you hoping to land a dev. crit on you and kaboom, line of epic traps kills them...thank gods for epic dodge and uber amounts of tumble...

Doesn't work for casters much, they spend all their time buffing after casting GS.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Here's a tip.

Pickpocket is the most underused skill in the game, even parry is used more then pickpocket. Now why this is the case, I have no idea. Since pickpocket allows for many oppertunties of assination. Lets give an example.

The target has a belt of agility on that contains the enchantment "freedom", he also has some rings with extremely high fortitude rolls. The assassin in question is a master pick pocket among being an epic level assassin (the class, yes). What do you do?

Well most people would likely try and death attack the target, which of course is a complete waste of time since the target has 41 fortitude with all his items on. Which means because while your standing DC for Death Attack may be 41, it doesn't include a d20 roll (Which is insane by the way), so the Death Attack will fail no matter what.

So what you then do is the following:
Find the target.
Organise to Pickpocket the targets rings and cut the belt off.
If he notices, death attack, if he doesn't, run on ahead and ambush.

The chance of a death attack succeeding is quite high now, since this bugger no longer has his pieces of jewerly which contains +3 fort on each, thus lowering the targets fort to 32. Now here's another slightly humourous method.

Instead of pickpocketing to take, pickpocket to put something in. Such as replacing the targets health potion with a poison potion of the same name and disctiption, or even better, dump a few "explosive devices" in that pack and enjoy.

I'm fairly sure i'd notice if someone stole my belt.

My strides would fall down.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Here's a tip.

Pickpocket is the most underused skill in the game, even parry is used more then pickpocket. Now why this is the case, I have no idea.

This is because items modifiers aren't taken into account - it's your unbuffed PP versus their fully-buffed spot.

It's because pickpocket is an abomination and should be removed from the game.

If you can pickpocket my ring, I can dev you and strip you naked. Give me all your stuff. Now.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's because pickpocket is an abomination and should be removed from the game.

If you can pickpocket my ring, I can dev you and strip you naked. Give me all your stuff. Now.

Under DM supervision as a contract killing. Not as normal PvP poo. I'd also give back the items, because stealing someones items to sell is not the aim.

As for the belt comment Chris made. Not really. A lot of people wear full plate armor and thus, a belt is only there to add the enchantment. Since the bottom part of armor is held by straps to the top.

Yeah, and that belt is probably underneath my armor. Have fun stealing it?

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

aurelius311 wrote:

if you are hiding, and someone goes Umber Hulk on you, but you arent in the line of sight (around a corner, say), do you pop up on their screen?

Not unless they've also got listen high enough to detect you anyway; but if that was the case then they wouldn't be shifting into an Umber-hulk, now would they?

I hate when people metagame me hiding behind large objects or walls, when they can see me on their screen, but their character should not be able to. Its quite frustrating.

TormakSaber wrote:

Yeah, and that belt is probably underneath my armor. Have fun stealing it?

Bwahaahaha I may have just killed my laptop with a mouthful of coffee.

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

aurelius311 wrote:

if you are hiding, and someone goes Umber Hulk on you, but you arent in the line of sight (around a corner, say), do you pop up on their screen?

Not unless they've also got listen high enough to detect you anyway; but if that was the case then they wouldn't be shifting into an Umber-hulk, now would they?

I hate when people metagame me hiding behind large objects or walls, when they can see me on their screen, but their character should not be able to. Its quite frustrating.

That would be hearing you, which gloriously enough, does not need line of sight, or humans would be very fucked indeed.

TormakSaber wrote:

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

aurelius311 wrote:

if you are hiding, and someone goes Umber Hulk on you, but you arent in the line of sight (around a corner, say), do you pop up on their screen?

Not unless they've also got listen high enough to detect you anyway; but if that was the case then they wouldn't be shifting into an Umber-hulk, now would they?

I hate when people metagame me hiding behind large objects or walls, when they can see me on their screen, but their character should not be able to. Its quite frustrating. :)

That would be hearing you, which gloriously enough, does not need line of sight, or humans would be very (censored) indeed.

What he said. If your HiPSer is showing on my screen and you emote you are hiding behind furniture, remember that you have to breath sometime and my PC's keen hearing caught the moment you let out a breath because you couldn't hold it back anymore.

Point being: No-one will ever see your PC on the screen if they don't have enough Spot or Listen to beat it. If you PC showed up, you bet one of these senses have caught you.

EDIT: That is, if I totally didn't misinterpret what Tormak said. <.<

Dahlya is right.

What if you are completely still, and have been there? Can they hear you breathing?

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

What if you are completely still, and have been there? Can they hear you breathing?

Listen Skill = 50
D20: 1
Skill Check = 51

*Hears an owl swoop for a kill through a stone wall 60ft away*

That's using the rules in the PHB, so I'd be inclined to say yes to hearing someone breath a few feet away (of course, Amia has super-inflated skills but that's beside the point).
That said,you may be able to make a 'move silently' check for your breathing, not sure if that would get trough through, though.

BlackDahlya wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

aurelius311 wrote:

if you are hiding, and someone goes Umber Hulk on you, but you arent in the line of sight (around a corner, say), do you pop up on their screen?

Not unless they've also got listen high enough to detect you anyway; but if that was the case then they wouldn't be shifting into an Umber-hulk, now would they?

I hate when people metagame me hiding behind large objects or walls, when they can see me on their screen, but their character should not be able to. Its quite frustrating.

That would be hearing you, which gloriously enough, does not need line of sight, or humans would be very (censored) indeed.

What he said. If your HiPSer is showing on my screen and you emote you are hiding behind furniture, remember that you have to breath sometime and my PC's keen hearing caught the moment you let out a breath because you couldn't hold it back anymore.

Point being: No-one will ever see your PC on the screen if they don't have enough Spot or Listen to beat it. If you PC showed up, you bet one of these senses have caught you.

EDIT: That is, if I totally didn't misinterpret what Tormak said. <.<

Unless your an Air Genasi rogue (Which used to be the Air Genasi's favoured class before SOMEONE changed it.), in which case, screw you breathing!

Also, what about half those rocks and stuff in battlefields which are quite big and should hide you, but don't due to engine limitations? Some placeables are also like that? I'd say it be a roll of move silently vs listen.

You could polymorph into a zombie. That avoids the whole breathing/heartbeat issue.

there's more tells. We're dealing with essentially superheroes, is my point. If they hear you, you hear you, I guess.

Last edited by Yurell on Wed, Jan 28 2009, 4:54 AM, edited 1 time in total.

TormakSaber wrote:

there's more tells. We're dealing with essentially superheroes, is my point. If they hear you, you hear you, I guess.

It does get like that.

Let's say you have a listen check of 100. You are asleep in your bed (-10 for being asleep = 90pts left), your door is ten feet away (-1 for the distance, -5 for the door = 84pts).
There is a stone wall ten feet beyond that (-1 for the distance, -15 for the wall = 68pts).
Beyond that wall is a room 20 feet wide (-2 for the distance = 66 points left) before another wall (-15 for the wall = 51 points).
The hallway beyond this is 100 feet long (-10 for distance = 41 points left).
There is a stone wall at the end of this corridor (-15 at the stone wall = 26 points left.
Ten feet beyond this (-1 for distance = 25 points left) are two people whispering.
Not only do you hear them but you wake up and understand what they're saying (yes I realise the mathematics goes the other way, but it was easier to demonstrate like this).

EDIT: For those who can't be bothered, that's 150 feet away through a door and three stone walls.

For all you sneakers & sins out there... Just face it...

for sneakers:no matter how high your Hide/MS is some PC is always going to see/hear you.

for Sins: no matter how high your Death Attack DC is your target PC is most likely wearing a counter for it.

That's a fact of life on Amia. If you wish to play a sneaker or a Sin you will have to deal with that fact whether you like it or not. Shrug it off & move on, because really you have no other choice in the matter.

I prefer "adapt, like the sexy, sexy rogue you are, or should be."

Teufel Eldritch wrote:

for Sins: no matter how high your Death Attack DC is your target PC is most likely wearing a counter for it.

That is not always true for many classes. I've found that only other rogues/shadowdancers/assassins can fit a Freedom item onto their gearset without sacrificing much (And you should, you know, be showing them professional courtesy). Any other class would have to give up valuable points of STR or Fort-Cloaks, or bonus spells etc etc. No one expects a very high death attack DC, and while it's not as flashy as dev-crit, it can end the game right then and there.

Seriously though, an umber hulk cannot see through walls. I've had an umber hulk rush around a corner and be like AHA

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

Seriously though, an umber hulk cannot see through walls. I've had an umber hulk rush around a corner and be like AHA

Me wrote:

That would be hearing you, which gloriously enough, does not need line of sight, or humans would be very (censored) indeed.

Depends on the Wall. It might not be a mechanical LoS blocker, and it could be that they just decided to check behind the wall when they found you.

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

Depends on the Wall. It might not be a mechanical LoS blocker, and it could be that they just decided to check behind the wall when they found you.

Or it IS a mechanical sight blocker and they checked because it's the smart thing to do.

TormakSaber wrote:

Leggomi Eggolas wrote:

Depends on the Wall. It might not be a mechanical LoS blocker, and it could be that they just decided to check behind the wall when they found you.

Or it IS a mechanical sight blocker and they checked because it's the smart thing to do.

They wouldn't have checked if I wasn't in the party and was a little dot on their minimap. Oh well

You cannot prove that, in any way shape or form, and honestly, why are you *partying with the people you're spying on*?

User Error, move along.

Never again shall I accept an invite from OOC friends! *shakes fist* Anyways, your right Tormak, my fault. Though I can prove it, as they admitted to me, but, as you said, user error.

Well, I'm just saying, I mean. It make sense that if you're spying, you... yeah.

To return to the orginal question of the author of the thread.

Assassins are certainly not useless at the epic hunting grounds. They still retain the rogues versabilty to a very large extend and typically any party can use a roguish type. That said you are not ever going to be able to solo anything or be a killing machine.

Assassin exel in, as pointed out, in precision strikes against a singel vital enemy like casters. But as many others classes assassins in PvE work best as a part of a balanced hunting group.

Heh, yes i see this brought up alot of other isues as well. Even though my question has been pretty much answered, I can clarify a bit more; I was concerned if the Death Attack will work on monstrs in the late levels, the DC being high enough to overcome monsters fortitude that is. From my modest calculations, I think the highest, reasonable DC for a death attack at level 30 would be something like this: 10 + 20 (lvl 20 assain) + 4 (18 natural int) + 6 (+12 int buff from items, spells etc) = 40

For most (high level) assassins the number will be lower, somewhere between 33 and 40 I figure, so my question is if this is enough to have a reasonable chance of succeding with your death attacks against monsters you encounter the end of the level scale? I dont expect death attack to work every time, even if that would be awesome, but often enough to make an assassin more then just a rogue with spells.

That said, i just started playing on Amia, so any ignorance is not intended.

The monsters' Fort saves are built around Devcrit and Implosion/Wail by medium epic, so that your average person's DC on each will be passed two thirds of the time. A hugely STR-pimped or CHA/INT/WIS pimped person will see that go up to half.

By high epic, you're really looking at 1's only for most critters. Bosses are definitely in that zone.

The shame is that the paralysis Death Attack is guff against mobs. Even if you do whore up the DC and have 7 or more attacks per round, you'll still only pwn the first one. Then it's a straight fight.

Rogues being unable to solo is a myth. A cornersneak with a fat stack of Darkness and Ultravision items is faster than anything but a twohander WM. Just don't do it when in party(unless they're Sneakers with Ultravision too), and don't do it ever when the mob are Sneakers.

Assassins in PvE

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