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Last edited by Jan Busta on Sat, Feb 07 2009, 17:41 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I know every six months there’s a thread where people argue for and against EDK’s being overpowered.

I’ve never really had a problem with EDK’s in terms of over – under powered. When they’re in the party they really help when scuttling through epic areas. I know from personal experience that they require a constant watch of buffing and healing to keep them going in PVM…and I always figured in pvp, if that’s your dish, then even though mage>fighter everytime, at least the WM has a chance of dev-critting the dragon and the owner (true a snowflakes in Hell, but it’s theoretically possible)

But there’s an undead summons I’ve watched recently which, knowing the history of the over-powered/underpowered argument, makes me very curious to ask the dev / designer why he/she scripted it?

Let me make it clear, I’m not a PVP fiend. I don’t do PVP - once a month at the most. So I’m not writing this from the point of view of a PVP player who is annoyed by being outclassed. I’m looking at this as a player watching a summons and asking himself, wow, how is that fair for the pvp-ing part of the player base?

I believe it’s called a phalandrian something??? Not sure. It’s got a tail and carries a great sword??? Does that sound familiar – I’m only guessing it’s an undead summons. If I’m mistaken and it’s a player’s personalised summons after a skin change and DC investment then lock this thread and ignore the rest of the post.

I’m assuming it’s a regular summons – well, to me, the balance on this one makes the concept of the EDK being overpowered laughable. The summons I was watching puts out 140 crits (I think that was with cleric magical damage but probably without elemental damage) – I’m not sure how it does that with a great sword but I was watching it. We’re talking the kind of damage only a trained and schooled Weapon master deals…to give a summons that kind of unstoppable damage..well..it seems somewhat questionable to me. Especially when one bears in mind that if I’m right and it’s undead…any similar type of build from the player side (ie, a WM) can’t crit back or dev crit. I’ve got to ask the question, ignoring the extra inequality of the caster lurking about in the background for the time being, is it fair that a summons built like a fighter should be stronger than a lvl 30 fighter? Perhaps there’s something I don’t know – maybe it’s got lousy discipline so a decent fighter could IKD it – maybe…but I don’t think that should be in the equation. On the base of the melee stats that I’ve seen, that thing can deal out the damage, but is immune from a similar attack….that seems to me, wholly one-sided.

I’m hoping that I’ll find that I’m wrong and that this is a unique DC bought summons and that the thread will be locked – if it isn’t, then I’m curious is the beast is as powerful as it seems and if so why has it been allowed out of the box?

In case it’s not felt in my English, this is all written in a very reasonable and curious tone – not angry, ranting or demanding changes. Questioning, and curious that’s all.

edit: reread my post and think it might sound a little judgemental. Apologies if it does. It's not meant like that.

I also apologise for my lack of summons build knowledge.

possibly the scythe thing that clerics get.

x4 crits always go high
If it has a custom skin it can look like a sword instead of a scythe.

Anyway, you said "if it's a custom one then ignore" where that shouldn't matter as the damage is never customized, just the looks. True custom summons are no longer handed out.

Jan Busta wrote:

I’m hoping that I’ll find that I’m wrong and that this is a unique DC bought summons and that the thread will be locked

I've been told Amia does not do custom summons, period.

I presume you mean the Cleric Death Domain Summon: Deathless Paragon? It has a greatsword and a bone tail.

2 Attacks per round at 5 less AB is the mitigating factor. Maybe doesn't mitigate enough, though.

Uberuce wrote:

2 Attacks per round at 5 less AB is the mitigating factor. Maybe doesn't mitigate enough, though.

Haste it and you get 3 :D

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Jan Busta wrote:

I’m hoping that I’ll find that I’m wrong and that this is a unique DC bought summons and that the thread will be locked

I've been told Amia does not do custom summons, period.

It does not, becuse the scripting is horrendous and trying to balance them is a nightmare.

Mr Hyde Jekyyl wrote:

I presume you mean the Cleric Death Domain Summon: Deathless Paragon? It has a greatsword and a bone tail.

That must be the one. Like I said, I have ZERO summon knowledge

tail and great sword - death domain - so it is undead...so it is crit immune.

To a neutral observer it does seem a little well...onesided.

Anyway, I'll make sure I run away whenever one of those rides over the hill. Especially as it's summoned by a cleric with lots of magic damage...double ouch. Still can't work out how it gets up to 140 when critting if the crit is only 2x.. ? buffed well I guess.

It doesn't need to be that difficult to adjust summons. An item akin to a book of transmutation (albeit with only an on and off setting) could be used to set a character-unique summon when casting a particular spell. When the spell is cast it would check for a local variable and summon the desired creature specified by the variable.

It's mainly the balancing that's tricky, but also an over-abundance of different creature blue-prints would become a problem.

personally I prefer the reskin thing that we have now, nothing about the thing changes mechancily yet you can get something unique for your char. Say reskinning a dragon to be a giant spider for a lolthlite priestess, still has all the stats and stuff of the EDK just looks like a spider and ICly is one.

All the custom summons were making this bonkers around here. Reskin works just as well for rp flavor.

The Paragon has the WM feat that makes their crits stronger. What's it's name... Critical Multiplier? That would be the answear to their high crits.

Just a curious possibility that's always been bouncing around in the back of my head.

Could there be a BoT Page for EDK? I've always found it soooo bland that for some reason, the most powerful summoning spell -has- to summon a dragon. Not all deities employ dragons for clerics, and not -all- mages are in love with them.

There are a lot of creatures out there in FR just as, if not stronger than a Dragon, and I kinda think the highest summoning in the land should reflect that.

That's just my two cents on it.

that is what reskinning is for.

Epic Spell: Dragon Knight.

Hmm...

Quote:

Dragon Knight (Ritual)
Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire]
Spellcraft DC: 38
Components: V, S, Ritual
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 75 ft.
Effect: One summoned adult red dragon
Duration: 20 rounds (D)
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 342,000 gp; 7 days; 13,680 XP. Seed: summon (DC 14). Factors: summon creature other than outsider (+10 DC), summon CR 14 creature (+24 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factor: two additional casters contributing 8th-level spell slots (-30 DC).

This spell summons an adult red dragon. It appears where the character designates and acts immediately. It attacks the character’s opponents to the best of its abilities (on the first round, it prefers to breathe fire on an enemy, if possible). The character can direct the dragon not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. This is a ritual spell requiring two other spellcasters, each of which must contribute an unused 8th-level spell slot to the casting.

Makes sense for a dragon summoning spell to summon a dragon? Also, mind, epic spells arent arcane or divine; they're a class on their own.

I wouldn't mind changing the duration to 20 rounds though.

I consider myself fortunate that we base the color on your alignment at all, instead of "Everybady Red!"

True enough....

Though as much other stuff as we take "artistic freedom" with (In NWN and Amia alike), kinda would be nice to give it some more flavor. Yeah, it's PnP spell, but I could see it easily being changed with a trans page to something more along the lines of "Advanced Gate" or "Call Ultimate Servant". After all, that's what the Book of Transmutation is all about: you take a normal spell, the flesh it out where it can be more flavorful to other users.

Instead of a Talosian's darkfire putting flame on a blade, BoT it and it's electricity now. That's my thinking behind it, at least.

I'd call yourself fortunate that all it takes is a feat, and you can cast it.

Rather than researching the spell seeds, spending massive exp on the research and then finally getting to cast your spell.

Quote:

This is a ritual spell requiring two other spellcasters, each of which must contribute an unused 8th-level spell slot to the casting.

Also this, and needing to make a DC 38 spellcraft check every time you cast it or the spell fails.

Look, I'm not saying EDK as is isn't: great, a time saver as a feat, awesome, neato, [Insert Slang for "Cool"]. I -am- grateful how epic spells work in NWN, and it's as simple as that.

I'm saying a few different options would be enjoyed and appreciated. Especially by pepople who play conjurers and want to do more than your text-book "dragon summoning", even though that -is- the PnP spell, even though it -is- the highest given summon in NWN.

If you wanna assail me for wanting more, so be it. I'm a glutton when it comes to possibilities and options, ESPECIALLY when it comes to RP. :twisted:

The catch to getting the cleric death domain monsters is you need to be a level 28+ cleric.

Now aside from the summon and the gate spell (if you're good aligned) there's not much to go 28 cleric for. Your caster level doesn't have such a huge impact like with wizards aside from duration and your spell repetoire in NWN is crap. (No greater command, holy/unholy word etc)

It's a fair trade off.

Galenson wrote:

The catch to getting the cleric death domain monsters is you need to be a level 28+ cleric.

Now aside from the summon and the gate spell (if you're good aligned) there's not much to go 28 cleric for. Your caster level doesn't have such a huge impact like with wizards aside from duration and your spell repetoire in NWN is crap. (No greater command, holy/unholy word etc)

It's a fair trade off.

what's the best cleric build? That's a hard one. The build thread is full of different views on that one. Some agreeing with you, some disagreeing. My view: any cleric which is lvl25 or up is gonna be awesome.

Let's just say, that in certain internal cleric build terms, it might be a trade off. In caster compared with caster terms it might also be fair. But I was never looking at it from that point of view. I was looking at it from generic fghtr/wm compared to caster balance point of view.

From the outside, trying to stay rationally neutral, it looks like we've got a cleric (who is already an awesome melee class if built well and buffed) possessing an uncrittable weapon master monster to sit by his side and crit the damned daylights out of any melee type who might attempt to tackle them - while the generic fighter type won't be able to do the same back... and lets face it, critting is the only trump in the fghtr's hand, ever. So it's not even on equal terms...it's on better than a lvl 30 fightr terms.

I think my gut feeling of unfairness resides in the fact that a WM has to take 6 fairly useless feats and 5 levels to get increased crit multiplier while this death cleric (alongside all the goodies it already has) can get to lvl 28 and get it for free in this virtual stooge form....hmmm. don't like, don't like, don't like.

(and I'm not mentioning the Dam res that I suspect the beast possesses or comparing it to the sacrifices and feats a fighter will have to take to get equivalent dam res).

Well, I've given my opinion. I leave it to the dev/designer gods to consider if it is valuable or not

Again I apologise if my English appears strident or demanding or overly critical. I don't mean it like that.

Nothing is invincible, you just have to use your head and think logically. All summons have their weaknesses: For the Undead it's that they get so few attacks and have low AC which makes them vulnerable to touch attacks, for the dragon it's arse is too big, the Azer can dish the damage out but can't take much in return, the Efreet can be killed quickly while it's still lobbing fireballs at you, the juggernaught is slow and weapon buffs such as greater magic weapon and flame weapon don't effectively apply to all of the multiple creature weapons it has etc.

Think, the Paragon is a two hander which means his AC is going to be low. (I estimate with buffs it's AC couldn't be any higher then 48-50ish unless you had haste) Any fighter worth his bread and water will easily have enough AB to hit the thing. Can't crit it you say? Do what clerics do and beat down the fool the old fashioned way: KD it and beat it senseless. You have the power attack feats because you're a weapon master, an extra 5 damage on an opponent you can't crit would be a blessing.

Everything dies, you just need to learn how.

As I said it's a fair trade off. Cleric offencive spells are crap (in comparison to mages) and by getting 28 cleric levels you've effectively thrown away any chance of multiclassing with another class to boost your melee abilities. You can't even get the 3 monk levels for the wisdom AC bonus. It's a damn hard sacrifice which is in turn rewarded with a summon that does it's job.

*Sigh* Another EDK bitchin' thread?

Wonder if the "Ban Dev Crit!, HIPS is bad! and No GS!" threads will be following.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

*Sigh* Another EDK bitchin' thread?

Wonder if the "Ban Dev Crit!, HIPS is bad! and No GS!" threads will be following.

I Lawl in advance at your failure to read it.

Theres been a few brief mentions of EDK and thats in comparison to the original premise of the thread. Or a matter of EDK aesthetics rather than anything power wise.

If you did read the entire thread I lawl at your Clonejyn.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

*Sigh* Another EDK bitchin' thread?

Wonder if the "Ban Dev Crit!, HIPS is bad! and No GS!" threads will be following.

Jan Busta wrote:

I’ve never really had a problem with EDK’s in terms of over – under powered. When they’re in the party they really help when scuttling through epic areas. I know from personal experience that they require a constant watch of buffing and healing to keep them going in PVM…and I always figured in pvp, if that’s your dish, then even though mage>fighter everytime, at least the WM has a chance of dev-critting the dragon and the owner (true a snowflakes in Hell, but it’s theoretically possible)

The complaint is about the undead summon, not EDK, which he explains further on, in a point I'm confident you read before making your comment.

EDIT: Sorry, that probably sounds a little snide. I meant it to be throwing the 'benefit of the doubt' rather than it be an attack against you.

Alright, I admit I didn't read it fully, sorry. Though I'll be honest, I wouldn't be to surprised if it some how degenerates into a EDK bashing thread.

I wish the rest of the undead summons had even a sliver of the power the death domain summons have. The undead summon lines are just generally weak save the death domain summons, which were horrendously strong...so strong in fact that i had to make a post a while back to bring it to the DMs attention. The only half decent undead summons are Mummy Dust and the winterwight. The Mohrg is alright early on. For the inbetween levels however you'll pretty much be a conjurer. The wraith summons are just pointless and the mummy's that follows leave a lot to be desired. Infact I dont recall EVER seeing the create undead spell lines being cast in a party...even by necromancers.

The undead summons are damage sponges: They either have 50% conceal or they have Damage Reduction to keep them going.

They're not glass cannons (undead get less attacks then most other racial types in NWN) and shouldn't be used as such. Hence why they're perfect for a melee cleric who can actually dish out the damage to make up for the lack of attacks from the summon.

Quote:

undead summons are damage sponges

Have you *actually* used them? really? If so you would *not* say this. I have a level 27 necro who never summons undead (except for the Mummy dust).

The problem is they don't do *any* damage at all, they have subpar auras and secondary abilities with pitiful DC's (wraith fear aura anyone?), no HP at all (there goes the ''tank'' aspect and finally and most damningly of all they do *not* draw aggro. The enemies usually ignore the incorporeal type completely plus they have an aweful sight range.

I actually like the fact that not all summons are damage/melee monsters. It adds a bit of tactical acumen to an otherwise point and click fest. But the undead line are all over the place really. Some are ok like the Morgh but do not update fast enough. Some are just plain useless (the wraith line) and you are forced to use them for too long.

I have always felt that each type should have its own niche and that they should update faster. eg the Morgh is all about damage but less defence and few/no abilities. The wraith *should* be useless in combat but its fear aura ought to be stronger and it should have a negative energy/ability drain power but with low damage. Mummy types strongest defence mediocre attack..etc

Whatever they do something needs to be done as the undead line are really weak compared to every other summon line out there (excepting mummy dust and winter wight of course!).

Mr T

If you're level 27 then you would be summoning things like Greater Mummy. I can assure you, having played a Palemaster, that these things are indeed, "Damage sponges".

So... the Greater mummy is a damage sponge...and I have to wait till level 27 to use it. Its nice that for 2 - 3 levels i have a half decent summon to use with create greater undead. In the mean time, the wraith, dread wraith, and mummy categorically suck.

Wizards dont get creat greater undead either so they are stuck with the mummy

Compared to what exactly? Having also played an evil Sorc, a Druid and a Neutral Wizzy, and a good aligned cleric and a bard, I'd say that the Mummy is one of the better summons around compared to many other summons to be perfectly honest.

The death domain summons that clerics get is pretty powerful. But it's a fair trade off. If a cleric takes death, that means he's missing out on another domain. Such as trickery or travel for invisibility or haste, respectively.

I think it's good having it that powerful - you are sacrificing a domain and some of the larger powerbuilds in exchange for it.

I honestly have no clue about the paragon's stats.

But it is an undead? Does the usual heal/mass heal stuff work on it? Or is it considered an outsider/construct etc.

Either way, killing the summoner is always a better option.

Depends on your alignment. For Good/neutral it's an outsider. For evil it's undead.

Both are extremely different from each other stats-wise.

I'd like to point out that in DnD, Necromancy is always seen as poor choice of occupation for wizards, as mastering of the deathless domain is better done through clerical based means.

Not sure about NWN1, but the discription for NWN2's pale master even says as much, saying that the only out to a painful amount of uselessness is basically the Pale Master class. So it makes sense that the clerical domain of death is far more powerful then the arcane domain.

Most of the time you take the arcane domain of necromancy with some kinda long term goal, such becoming uber-lich, or multi-classing. The most successful Necromancers generally tend to be those whom don't focus on only using necromantic like spells, but rather keep an assortment of exploding doomsday spells and such. Not to mention, necromancy isn't just raising the dead, it's munipulation of life energies, so spells thats sap attributes and stuff tend to be the way to go.

Galenson wrote:

Nothing is invincible, you just have to use your head and think logically. All summons have their weaknesses: For the Undead it's that they get so few attacks and have low AC which makes them vulnerable to touch attacks, for the dragon it's arse is too big, the Azer can dish the damage out but can't take much in return, the Efreet can be killed quickly while it's still lobbing fireballs at you, the juggernaught is slow and weapon buffs such as greater magic weapon and flame weapon don't effectively apply to all of the multiple creature weapons it has etc.

Think, the Paragon is a two hander which means his AC is going to be low. (I estimate with buffs it's AC couldn't be any higher then 48-50ish unless you had haste) Any fighter worth his bread and water will easily have enough AB to hit the thing. Can't crit it you say? Do what clerics do and beat down the fool the old fashioned way: KD it and beat it senseless. You have the power attack feats because you're a weapon master, an extra 5 damage on an opponent you can't crit would be a blessing.

Everything dies, you just need to learn how.

As I said it's a fair trade off. Cleric offencive spells are crap (in comparison to mages) and by getting 28 cleric levels you've effectively thrown away any chance of multiclassing with another class to boost your melee abilities. You can't even get the 3 monk levels for the wisdom AC bonus. It's a damn hard sacrifice which is in turn rewarded with a summon that does it's job.

OK. You've explained it. Makes more sense now. Didn't know about the domain sacrifice for death clerics. The logic is persuasive.

I'm not completely convinced but that's more to do with my own personal indecision regarding the general debate about over-powered/under-powered summonses - which as a few of you kindly pointed out to an earlier poster, I didn't want to open a discussion on in this thread -and I won't do.

Still needs a nerf. Yes, it should be powerful, but no summon should be a viable alternative to getting a @#$%ing party.

This can be applied to 99.9% of the summons on Amia, btw, not just this one. The Paragon just needs it the most at current, with EDK and 27+ Gates at a close second.

Heh, I love the way some view it as a "domain sacrifice" like the cleric is giving up so much. Improved invisibility is easily available so theres no point in taking trickery anymore. This leaves most clerics with a free domain to pick. Going death domain for a free uber summon is hardly a sacrifice. Domains are just gravey on the already hearty roast dinner that is the cleric class.

All the points about arcane being a poor choice for necromancy is all well and good but that doesnt mean the wraiths have to suck quite so much.

I dont think ive seen anyone with a wraith out in the last 6 months.

If EDK loses its power that'll just be aweful. If you wanna do anything with it, nerf its duration. But dont make it pussy cat. Gate is already balanced by its short duration.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

All the points about arcane being a poor choice for necromancy is all well and good but that doesnt mean the wraiths have to suck quite so much.

I dont think ive seen anyone with a wraith out in the last 6 months.

If EDK loses its power that'll just be aweful. If you wanna do anything with it, nerf its duration. But dont make it pussy cat. Gate is already balanced by its short duration.

The Faithful Servant (or whatever it's called) is a pretty good wraith. I use it as a pretty steady PvE companion for 5 or 6 levels and just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening. I've never seen a herd of wiener dogs thundering across the plains... doesn't mean it's not happening.

And if the clerics death domain gets nerfed, EDK should get nerfed, too. EDK is more powerful than the domain summons. And how often do you see people who are pure cleric? Hardly ever, if someone wants to devote all their levels to being a pure cleric, bravo. They should get a little something extra for it.

EDK should be more powerful than the death domain summon. Actually, let me rephrase that. EDK should be significantly more powerful than the death domain summon. The crux of the EDK should be that it has a very short duration so its something to be used for a tough fight or when the proverbial hits the fan in a tough fight.

Considering i have met people that can melee EDK without buffs and not get damaged, the fact is easy to dispel with Banishment, EDk is abit under powered as it is. So no change is needed.

Also you do not need a feat to use Death domain, EDK requires you to sacrifice a feat. EDK is just fine as it is

WonWon wrote:

Still needs a nerf. Yes, it should be powerful, but no summon should be a viable alternative to getting a @#$%ing party.

This can be applied to 99.9% of the summons on Amia, btw, not just this one. The Paragon just needs it the most at current, with EDK and 27+ Gates at a close second.

Actually, Whilst I would in theory think your idea is sound, in fact, the problem is, at least for me. That,

1. No party exists to get
2. Parties that do exist just seem to want to do circles around the spires only (yawn)
3. Wizards/Sorcs not pumped with BG/Pally steroids don't typically last long without a summons

So I don't think the summons should not be nerfed. I like to play a conjurer, that's their specialty. If I wanted to just Wail everything, I'd go Necro. If I wanted to Dominate Monster, I'd go Enchanter (which, incidently, gets you far more powerful summons than a Conjurer!). As it is, level 9 summons cannot solo Sahuagin/Demons/Firegiants/etc...

Only EDK, Lavawight, Death Paragon and a few others can sort of manage it...and only if buffed to the hilt.

Quote:

No party exists to get

Strange. I've never had a problem finding parties within my level. Ever. Use the Party Ball, or maybe ask some friends OOC. If neither option is likable, that goes from being a server/module issue (balance of summons) to a player issue ((un)willingness to use tools)

Quote:

Parties that do exist just seem to want to do circles around the spires only

Player issue. Not Server/Module issue. Irrelevant.

Quote:

Wizards/Sorcs not pumped with BG/Pally steroids don't typically last long without a summons

Incorrect. They are considerably harder, however, it is by no means an impossible feat - even for non Necromancy mages. A smart thing to do here is to spend a night looking at Wikipedia and Amia's spell page (and maybe do a test or two in game) and manually examine each and every spell, then utilize them tactically and to the fullest. Level 30 Pure mages can be very useful without GS/Invis Jockeying behind a summon, especially in PvM.

Summons should be a support, not a crutch

EDK may require 4 feats to use effectively but to get the death paragon it requires 28 cleric levels which I'll admit to you now is -far- more restrictive then the minimum 23 wizard/sorc levels. The death paragon is the reward you get for going full RP retard and getting 28 cleric levels.

Honestly I'm bored of summon bashing threads, as what was said to Budly many many many many many times... stop beating a dead horse.

You've got a few options as a mage:

Disable the spawn (Evards Black Tentacles, etc) and let your summons finish them. (that is, don't sit back in invis/gs).

This option will make you run out of spells very quickly, leaving you vulnerable for about 7 mins or just plain ineffective for about half the time from the time you've run out of disabling spells.

Another option is to buff your summons to high hell and sit in GS. This option is less risky and you can generally last close to 12 mins, leaving the last 3 mins before rest time to throw down some disablers.

But, the summons is your chief means of Cannon, since, spells don't really do enough damage without running out quickly.

I find a party about 50% of the time when I play. The other 50% of the time, I am on my own unfortunately. This could be because I play on B mostly...not sure, but as it stands, that's just part of the parcel in the timezone.

Given a fighter/wm/rogue or an EDK, I'd prefer though, to have the PC anyday...

soundofastream wrote:

Disable the spawn (Evards Black Tentacles, etc) and let your summons finish them. (that is, don't sit back in invis/gs).

This option will make you run out of spells very quickly, leaving you vulnerable for about 7 mins or just plain ineffective for about half the time from the time you've run out of disabling spells.

Another option is to buff your summons to high hell and sit in GS. This option is less risky and you can generally last close to 12 mins, leaving the last 3 mins before rest time to throw down some disablers.

But, the summons is your chief means of Cannon, since, spells don't really do enough damage without running out quickly.

That's a limitation and adaption effect due to the 15 minute intervals between rest periods. If you could rest any time, obviously there would be different mage tactics and spell cannons would be in more common use.

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